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Economy 440 Build Suggestions

Posted By: CYACOP

Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/15/09 05:18 PM

Taking a 72 440 stock engine and going through it.
Looking to get 1 step up in power from stock.
Cam Suggestions?
Want to run pump gas, its just a street car. 9.5 compression max?

Block checked out good, needs rebore.
Was thinking cast pistons due to cost. Best place to buy?
346 heads-What cc are these?
Will run stock exhaust and intake manifolds with 650 Holley.
Suggestions?
I read other posts on same subject but didnt really specify what I was looking for.
Posted By: furious70

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/15/09 09:00 PM

http://www.compcams.com/information/Articles/Type/Chrysler/CC_MM0401-001.asp


great article for how budget bolt on's do and don't work.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/15/09 09:44 PM

call summit and get their 488 cam, t-chain set, gaskets and what not. ex mani's and carb are going to hold you back some. Should run good though
Posted By: BDS871Cuda

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/15/09 10:48 PM

Quote:

Taking a 72 440 stock engine and going through it.
Looking to get 1 step up in power from stock.
Cam Suggestions?
Want to run pump gas, its just a street car. 9.5 compression max?

Block checked out good, needs rebore.
Was thinking cast pistons due to cost. Best place to buy?
346 heads-What cc are these?
Will run stock exhaust and intake manifolds with 650 Holley.
Suggestions?
I read other posts on same subject but didnt really specify what I was looking for.



Northern Auto out of Sioux City, Iowa always had
good rebuild kits. Tell them what you have and
they should be able to set you up with a Master
Rebuild kit. They can up grade from stock with
a few options. As for a cam, the stock 440 should
be fine with any thing around .450-.460 lift.

www.northernautoparts.com 800-831-0884
Posted By: therocks

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/15/09 11:39 PM

I agree with the Summit cam kit.For the economey build they cant be beat.Has a racy type idle but not too much pulls decent vacuum and will pull stromg.Rocky
Posted By: gch

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 12:37 AM

The heads are likely close to 90cc.You will have to mill them to get the desired compression with a stock type piston.
Headers(of any kind)and an aluminum intake(dual plane)can be had used for very reasonable amounts and will help your power significantly.
I would go for 9.0-1 with your less than ideal quench and a smallish cam(like 215-220 degrees on the intake side @ .050).
650 double pumper will work but a 750 vac secondary holley(again available cheap used) will be a better choice IMO.
What type of vehicle and the rest of the drivetrain specs??
Posted By: landon1

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 12:40 AM

i just did my 440...started out as a budget build, cost a bit more than expected, but still not as much as most probably spend.

engine kit with pistons, machine work on block and crank, hot tank, cam bearings, all new plugs, etc. $1100

comp cam and lifters, pushrods, double roller timing set, priming rod, mechanical gauge kit, break-in additive, bronze intermediate shaft bushing, other stuff from summit $400

deep sump oil pan and pickup $90

milodon windage tray $50 (didn't use, wouldn't clear my rods for some reason - stock stroke and cork gasket between block and tray )

paint, oil, filters, parts cleaner, etc. $100

so, that put me around $1700, which i'm sure i'm probably in over that
Posted By: b body dreams

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 01:09 AM

I am running the summitt cam in the 440 we built for my 68 sat. The engine is still stock bore with stock heads. We did a valve job and a mild port and polish on the heads,and installed a double roller timing chain. Im running a stock intake with a 770 holley and summitt headers. Other than than some issues with getting the headers to fit Im very happy with the way it runs.
Posted By: Robbins

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 01:46 PM

I'm running the small summit cam in my 440. It has all kinds of vacuum at idle.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 02:08 PM

FWIW I ran the summit 488 in a maybe 9:1 440 w/ 906 heads, headers, rpm intake, 750DP and 3.91's car ran 12.90 all day. Pulled hard form off idle to about 5600.
Posted By: patrick

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 04:07 PM

Quote:

Taking a 72 440 stock engine and going through it.
Looking to get 1 step up in power from stock.
Cam Suggestions?
Want to run pump gas, its just a street car. 9.5 compression max?

Block checked out good, needs rebore.
Was thinking cast pistons due to cost. Best place to buy?
346 heads-What cc are these?
Will run stock exhaust and intake manifolds with 650 Holley.
Suggestions?
I read other posts on same subject but didnt really specify what I was looking for.



if it were me, I'd look at running some KB quench dome pistons if you're married to open chambered heads. do a good job on fitting the quench dome to the chamber, and you'll go a long way on detonation resistance. for a cam, I'd go voodoo 60303, com 911 springs. if you think you may upgrade to aftermarket closed chambered heads later, use the KB237's.
Posted By: joedust451

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 07:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Taking a 72 440 stock engine and going through it.
Looking to get 1 step up in power from stock.
Cam Suggestions?
Want to run pump gas, its just a street car. 9.5 compression max?

Block checked out good, needs rebore.
Was thinking cast pistons due to cost. Best place to buy?
346 heads-What cc are these?
Will run stock exhaust and intake manifolds with 650 Holley.
Suggestions?
I read other posts on same subject but didnt really specify what I was looking for.



if it were me, I'd look at running some KB quench dome pistons if you're married to open chambered heads. do a good job on fitting the quench dome to the chamber, and you'll go a long way on detonation resistance. for a cam, I'd go voodoo 60303, com 911 springs. if you think you may upgrade to aftermarket closed chambered heads later, use the KB237's.



This is what i'd do, the quench dome will be the way to go, should put you around 10.1, a "true' 10.1, not guessing, i ran these quench dome's in a .060" 360 & loved them, ran great on pump 91 @ 10.36.1 comp., this way you can install a healthier cam like a voodoo or XE, you'll be out alittle more (maybe 300.00) but it'll be well worth it.

I ran the big summit cam in my 440, it did ok, i couldn't complain for the price i guess, but they've gone up, they do good on the bottle, but "racey idle", don't know about that, mine was calm with its 114 LSA, I see new XE cam/lifter kits on e-bay going real cheap, check with KMJ Performance out of Aims Iowa, his name is Wess.
Posted By: CYACOP

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 09:50 PM

I spoke with Summit and Northern today and they both offer "master rebuild kits" which seems up to this point, the most economical way to go, of course with a sacrifice on obtainable performance.

Summit said their kit's pistons would not be available until December, (Federal Mougal) sp? Northern checked stock and said the parts could be at my door in 3-5 days. Summits price was 100 dollars less due to 10% discount code but as stated they can't deliver. Northern's price was about $1,060 for all, shipped, with upgraded cam, blocked hot air valley pan and double roller timing chain set. This also included lifters with the cam. These are stock spec pistons, .030 over with .440 lift 212/212 Comp Cam.
Might be dog but then again, it's just a street car. By they way, its going in a restored 71 Road Runner that currently has a stock 383, 3.55 gear and a 727.
Let me know what you guys think about this, but again, money for parts AND machine work is an issue. My son is paying for this out of his own pocket and wants to get his first V8 rebuild under his belt.
Everyone's input has been and will be appreciated.
Posted By: coronet1966d

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 09:53 PM

well thats not the route i would take, get good pistons and order an engine kit from mancinis. gaskets bearings and rings are like $275 plus an oil pump and an intake manifold i think you could save some money that way and get a better kit
Posted By: Robbins

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 10:30 PM

If you are going to run decompressed pistons, then I would go off that thread and pick you a cam that will work with those pistons.

There is one guy at our local track that put a 74(I think that was the year) 440 out of a car and stuck in a long bed truck and he's in the 12's. I've forgotten what cam he used.

I've gotten a lot more than $1000 dollars in my build, so.........I do understand the money deal.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 11:48 PM

new one: "decompressed pistons"
Posted By: rockerbob

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/16/09 11:49 PM

This is a very good thread. Thanks to everyone!
Posted By: Robbins

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/17/09 01:08 AM

Quote:

new one: "decompressed pistons"



I'm so sorry. Low compression pistons, dog dish pistons, blower pistons, smog pistons.........any of these suit you?
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/17/09 05:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

new one: "decompressed pistons"



I'm so sorry. Low compression pistons, dog dish pistons, blower pistons, smog pistons.........any of these suit you?



Yes, all the same thing. If you order a complete engine kit make sure the pistons are NOT the ones with the 1.912" compression height. There's no point in putting those in a motor, you'd be better off re-ringing a tired 440 than wasting your money with those. The one summit may be waiting on are likely their 'not as bad' 1.991" compression height pistons. At least with those you get a somewhat usable CR. My choice if you want something on a budget would be KB237's or even trw 2355's.
Posted By: CYACOP

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/17/09 04:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

new one: "decompressed pistons"



I'm so sorry. Low compression pistons, dog dish pistons, blower pistons, smog pistons.........any of these suit you?



Yes, all the same thing. If you order a complete engine kit make sure the pistons are NOT the ones with the 1.912" compression height. There's no point in putting those in a motor, you'd be better off re-ringing a tired 440 than wasting your money with those. The one summit may be waiting on are likely their 'not as bad' 1.991" compression height pistons. At least with those you get a somewhat usable CR. My choice if you want something on a budget would be KB237's or even trw 2355's.


I did some checking and see the KB237's will give me a 10:1 compression ratio at 88cc heads. To get a 9.5 to 1 ratio It was suggested use the KB184's which I cannot find, orders since June not filled yet, back orders The TRW's 2355's at 9.4 to 1 are also not available until who know's when. So I continue my search.
Decided to get away fron rebuild kits and get the pistons for now but that seems to have it's own issues.
I want to shoot for a 9.5 to 1 comp ratio.
Posted By: joedust451

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/17/09 05:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

new one: "decompressed pistons"



I'm so sorry. Low compression pistons, dog dish pistons, blower pistons, smog pistons.........any of these suit you?



Yes, all the same thing. If you order a complete engine kit make sure the pistons are NOT the ones with the 1.912" compression height. There's no point in putting those in a motor, you'd be better off re-ringing a tired 440 than wasting your money with those. The one summit may be waiting on are likely their 'not as bad' 1.991" compression height pistons. At least with those you get a somewhat usable CR. My choice if you want something on a budget would be KB237's or even trw 2355's.


I did some checking and see the KB237's will give me a 10:1 compression ratio at 88cc heads. To get a 9.5 to 1 ratio It was suggested use the KB184's which I cannot find, orders since June not filled yet, back orders The TRW's 2355's at 9.4 to 1 are also not available until who know's when. So I continue my search.
Decided to get away fron rebuild kits and get the pistons for now but that seems to have it's own issues.
I want to shoot for a 9.5 to 1 comp ratio.



Just get the KB237s, with a 90cc head (wich most 906/452s are around 91-92 stock) says the comp. will be 9.7.1, this is with the piston around .010" in the hole & a .039" gasket, i've run these pistons before, with an untouched block, they accually sit around .016".017" below deck, mine ran fine on pump premium, Competition Products has them in stock for 329.99, don't know what Summit/Jegs wants for them, i checked on the TRW 2255s, they didn't stock them.
Posted By: patrick

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/17/09 07:45 PM

Quote:


I did some checking and see the KB237's will give me a 10:1 compression ratio at 88cc heads. To get a 9.5 to 1 ratio It was suggested use the KB184's which I cannot find, orders since June not filled yet, back orders The TRW's 2355's at 9.4 to 1 are also not available until who know's when. So I continue my search.
Decided to get away fron rebuild kits and get the pistons for now but that seems to have it's own issues.
I want to shoot for a 9.5 to 1 comp ratio.



if you actually do the math, those pistons, to a blueprint height block will sit .015" in the hole. with a 4.35" bore, 3.75 stroke, a gasket 4.5" diameter, .039" compressed, with the 5cc valve pockets and .015" in the hole, and neglecting crevice volume, for an 84cc head (closed chambered eddies) you get 9.9:1 comp, 88cc (open chambered eddies) 9.55:1, and the typical OEM open chambers (90-92cc) 9.25-9.4:1 compression. change the head gasket to a steel shim (.018-.021" thick, 4.38-4.45 bore for the MP or Mr. gaskets'), compression goes up by ~.4. reducing my 4.5" diameter, .039" head gasket to a 4.35" diameter, .039" gasket raises compression by .05
Posted By: Robbins

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/17/09 09:41 PM

Quote:

To get a 9.5 to 1 ratio It was suggested use the KB184's which I cannot find, orders since June not filled yet, back orders The TRW's 2355's at 9.4 to 1 are also not available until who know's when. So I continue my search.
Decided to get away fron rebuild kits and get the pistons for now but that seems to have it's own issues.
I want to shoot for a 9.5 to 1 comp ratio.



This info below is for the KB184 piston

ENTER YOUR DATA CALCULATED DATA
Cylinder Head Volume (cc) 78
Piston Head Volume (cc) -2
Gasket Thickness (in.) .044
Gasket Bore (in.) 4.5
Cylinder Bore Diameter (in.) 4.35
Deck Clearance (in.) .08
Stroke (in.) 3.75
STATIC COMPRESSION RATIO 09.40
OPTIONAL DATA Rod Length (in.) 6.758
Adjusted Stroke (in.) 3.255
Intake Closing Point (degrees) ABDC @ 0.050 lift plus 15 degrees 49
DYNAMIC EFFECTIVE COMPRESSION RATIO 08.29

This is what I ran with 915's.
Posted By: CYACOP

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/17/09 10:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

To get a 9.5 to 1 ratio It was suggested use the KB184's which I cannot find, orders since June not filled yet, back orders The TRW's 2355's at 9.4 to 1 are also not available until who know's when. So I continue my search.
Decided to get away fron rebuild kits and get the pistons for now but that seems to have it's own issues.
I want to shoot for a 9.5 to 1 comp ratio.



This info below is for the KB184 piston

ENTER YOUR DATA CALCULATED DATA
Cylinder Head Volume (cc) 78
Piston Head Volume (cc) -2
Gasket Thickness (in.) .044
Gasket Bore (in.) 4.5
Cylinder Bore Diameter (in.) 4.35
Deck Clearance (in.) .08
Stroke (in.) 3.75
STATIC COMPRESSION RATIO 09.40
OPTIONAL DATA Rod Length (in.) 6.758
Adjusted Stroke (in.) 3.255
Intake Closing Point (degrees) ABDC @ 0.050 lift plus 15 degrees 49
DYNAMIC EFFECTIVE COMPRESSION RATIO 08.29

This is what I ran with 915's.


Looks like the dynamic calcs are much lower than expected. Looking at the chart I have it says the 80cc heads result in a 9.7 CR your static number is even lower, then you add in the dynamic variablles and end up with about an 8.3 CR. It seems to be a fine line but I really didnt want to have to run premium gas but upon closer inspection the KB237's are looking to be the better choice. Actual results may vary.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/18/09 03:02 AM

Quote:


Looks like the dynamic calcs are much lower than expected. Looking at the chart I have it says the 80cc heads result in a 9.7 CR your static number is even lower, then you add in the dynamic variablles and end up with about an 8.3 CR. It seems to be a fine line but I really didnt want to have to run premium gas but upon closer inspection the KB237's are looking to be the better choice. Actual results may vary.



Don't waste your time with those charts. The charts the piston manufacturers put out make all kinds of assumptions and always give back an overly high CR. Just use an online calculator and plug in the real numbers and get an accurate reading.

For a piston installon a real-wold block and a typical .039" gasket, 90cc production heads, etc, compression is not as high as they make it out to be. Granted it is high enough for iron heads and pump gas, but should be doable. I still think that the KB237's or TRW2355's are the ticket for you, if you can find them in stock.
Posted By: joedust451

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/18/09 03:36 AM

Competition Products have the KB237s in stock for 329.99

www.competitionproducts.com
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/18/09 11:03 AM

steel shim head gaskets are a must. They will help you get your compression up. Even if you end up w/ 9:1, that's still pretty good and you'll have a decent running 440.
Posted By: CYACOP

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/18/09 01:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Looks like the dynamic calcs are much lower than expected. Looking at the chart I have it says the 80cc heads result in a 9.7 CR your static number is even lower, then you add in the dynamic variablles and end up with about an 8.3 CR. It seems to be a fine line but I really didnt want to have to run premium gas but upon closer inspection the KB237's are looking to be the better choice. Actual results may vary.



Don't waste your time with those charts. The charts the piston manufacturers put out make all kinds of assumptions and always give back an overly high CR. Just use an online calculator and plug in the real numbers and get an accurate reading.

For a piston installon a real-wold block and a typical .039" gasket, 90cc production heads, etc, compression is not as high as they make it out to be. Granted it is high enough for iron heads and pump gas, but should be doable. I still think that the KB237's or TRW2355's are the ticket for you, if you can find them in stock.



I did the online calculator and see what you mean. Resulted in a 9.5 CR. Looks like I'll go with the KB237's. I spoke with the machine shop and early next week he will underbore the worst cylinder to be sure .030 will clean things up then I will order the pistons next week. Thanks for all the help, I'm sure I will be back for more.
Posted By: moper

Re: Economy 440 Build Suggestions - 09/18/09 03:26 PM

Also keep in mind, a dynamic compression depends on teh cam, and you dont want a dynamic with open chamber heads any higher than 8.3:1. To put it in perspective I use 8.5:1 as a max dynamic with aluminum and closed chambers to run pump high test.
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