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oil on spark plugs
Posted By: kbeeper69
oil on spark plugs - 09/08/09 12:32 AM
been fighting a smoke out the exhaust issue with my 440 since it was rebuilt. pulled plugs and they are oil fouled. what would cause this,no vacuum leaks at intake,or valve covers. plugs are wet with oil. any help ? or do i have to pull heads,and or motor?
Posted By: ewolfe
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/08/09 01:17 AM
I'd start with a compression check. I'm assuming you had the heads redone by a shop you turst.
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/08/09 02:38 AM
cant tonight ,garage is under kids room. what would i look for besides low readings between cylinders? would the heads have anything wrong to do this? heads had valve job ,bigger valves installed,gasket matched,light shave.
Posted By: D_C
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/08/09 06:48 AM
I had a similar issue a few weeks back, though not as global (I only had One plug fouling.)
The engine had had a complete valve-job with New Springs, Seals around six months earlier.
Then, it started fouling the #7 plug. Thought it must be rings (since the valve job was so recent.)
Tested compression, and all eight cylinders were within specifications.
Changed out the Oil-Seals on that one cylinder, and the smoke and oil-fouling ended.
May or may not be your situation. Another possibility, oil leaking past intake gasket.
Good Luck.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/08/09 01:31 PM
440 intakes are bad for leaking on the underside of the intake gasket. if you had the heads milled a bit and not the intake sides or the intake the intake is a little wider than the V it sits down in and does not seal perfect underneath allowing it to suck oil.
often applying RTV to both sides of the intake gasket at the ports tightening snug then waiting 2 hours and tighten good works. don't be afraid to retighten more next morning and again in a week .
I also assume you have a good PVC valve and an open breather on other valve cover
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/08/09 07:43 PM
when all this smoke first started i thought it was the intake .had car running hosed it all down with wd40 no leaks.i ll have to do a compression test when im off work.how would i tell a bad valve seal? the engine and heads were rebuilt at the same time .
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/08/09 08:18 PM
the thing about the bathtub gasket leak I described it leaks (more allows oil to seep in) underneath so unless you got a way to get down in the motor lifter valley and spray the underside at the bottom of the ports that don't always work. Pull the intake easy 5 minute job and you can usually see if the oil has been getting sucked up into the ports!
Valve seals usually smokes when sitting 1/2 and mostly goes away and under WOT smokes some as it will suck oil past the intake valve.
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/12/09 02:31 AM
UPDATE: Did compression test, all 8 cylinders are 160 psi. Pulled intake oil in the ports. Should I use silicone on the valley pan, or just get a new one?
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/13/09 02:31 PM
yup clean it real good and and apply a layer of silicone around both sides of the port on the gasket. and apply some to the head around ports too.
then snug up wait an hour the pull down tight. retighten after warm up next day and next week then periodically check!
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/15/09 01:00 AM
any special silicon,was thinking the copper silicone? smear it on or lay a bead?.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/15/09 05:20 PM
I think they are all fine!
Posted By: C-Tech
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/17/09 02:01 PM
Either method is okay just make it thick enough to fill any gap you might have usualy about 1/8 inch or so, at least this sounds like an easy fix!!
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/18/09 02:24 AM
did all the above ,still sucking oil at the bottom of the ports.
im giong to try a new gasket ,then a new intake.
anything elese i shiould look at ??
Posted By: PUNK
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/18/09 02:37 AM
Does the engine ever puff a cloud of smoke at initial start up? I built a Victor headed 511" engine and used the valve seals that were supplied with the heads from Edelbrock, that engine smoked until the seals were replaced. The ones that were supplied didnt want to stay attached to the valve guides. I dont know how stock heads oil drain back is, but the Edelbrock will pool with enough oil at the top end to cover the tops of the valve guides; so if the valve stem seals seal poorly to the valve or the valve guide, you will have problems with smoke.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/18/09 02:41 AM
you could get them paper gaskets that go each side of the pan gasket. Felpro 1216 plus RTV???
Is the intake hard to get the bolts in??
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/18/09 02:49 AM
ive oblonged the bolt holes on my intake torker 2 for a 440,after i siliconed the heads,and valley pan,i also bolted the intake to the passenger side head,and ran a.004 feeler guage along the lenght of the intake.i was bearly able to get it thru. this is driving me crazy!!!!! the car smokes as soon as you start it .ive had the heads redone with new seals at rebuild time,could they be the cause of all the smoke,and oil on my plugs??
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/18/09 02:52 AM
What you may have to do is put a little silicone on each side of the pan, then bolt the intake down. Then pull the intake and pan back off and check to see if there's any areas which do NOT have visible contact with the silicone.
Also, what you can do instead of putting silicone everywhere is to do a bead on the front and back valley pan hold downs (which I'm sure you're already doing) plus a bead along the bottom of each cylinder head before putting the pan down. Again CHECK to make sure you're getting silicone contact everywhere. If you do a good bead basically like a rectangle around the valley area and everything is clean before doing so and you checked and the silicone is getting good contact to the pan and the block then there's no way the oil can get out of the valley area.
FWIW I didn't have a problem with sucking oil out of the valley I only had a problem with sucking oil out of the intake manifold bolts. The intake manifold bolts go right through the head material and right into the valve cover area on top of the head. If you don't use some permatex thread sealer on the bolt threads, engine vacuum WILL suck oil right past the bolt threads and right down your intake. On mine it even made a nice little pool of oil on my valley pan so I could take an oil bath if I wanted to.
I always use the black permatex rtv and have had great luck with it. I always give it 24 hours to fully cure. Probably overkill on time but why take the chance?
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/18/09 03:05 AM
i am seeing oil on the bolts also.ive never used any sealer on the bolts,ill give it a try.silicone for the end seals silicone around the head ports and i smeared silicone around the valley pan ports both sides ,im using the blue silicone.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/18/09 03:09 AM
Quote:
i am seeing oil on the bolts also.ive never used any sealer on the bolts,ill give it a try.silicone for the end seals silicone around the head ports and i smeared silicone around the valley pan ports both sides ,im using the blue silicone.
Yes, I use this stuff on the intake bolts now. Specifically made for sealing threads that go thru into oil.
http://permatex.com/products/Automotive/...ead_Sealant.htm
Funny how my factory service manual mentioned nothing about sealing the threads yet after I pulled the stock intake and put it back on they did seep oil. And it's not like they even go into an oil pressure area, and they go downhill yet oil still made its way up there.
Don't use silicone on the bolts, when you take them out it drops chunks of silicone onto the tops of the head under the valve cover. I did it and had to clean out the silicone and chased the threads with a tap to make sure I got that crap cleaned out. Now I just use the thread sealer.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/18/09 04:02 AM
Quote:
did all the above ,still sucking oil at the bottom of the ports. im giong to try a new gasket ,then a new intake.
anything elese i shiould look at ??
Were the heads milled? The block decked? Stock heads? Got a deck height from the machinist by any chance?
Sounds like you checked the intake/head angle. You got .004" around the entire perimeter of the intake, correct?
Is your intake too high or too low? Did you hog the intake holes out on the top or bottom?
You may have to break one of the rules in engine building...
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/18/09 12:33 PM
the heads are 915s they had a light cut to true them up..004 around the perimiter . only one bolt hole was off,intake bolted to the passenger side the driver side front bolt was off a little. i oblonged the holes up and down. now mind you im still using the same valley pan. should i try a new one ?
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 09/18/09 09:21 PM
The blue silicone sucks use black orange or red.
If you had to oblong the holes your intake is not sitting down right so a real good bead on the back side of the intake (espesially at the bottomes) and a good bead on the front side of the intake plus some on bolt threads pull barely snug and go away for an hour. then come back snug up and come back tomorrow now pull tight!!
You should almost be able to see gasket will flatten sealing ridges at top and not at bottom??
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/01/09 12:41 AM
up date .... tried new bathtub gasket ,still sucking oil at bottom of ports,made new side gaskets out of gasket box,still sucking oil,the ports were oil soaked around the gaskets. think maybe the right side gaskets would help?
ive gone thru 2 full tubes of silicone plus the tiny one with the new bathtub gasket,im at wits end with this thing,i cant tell if the heads are at fault or the intake .
Posted By: Dougsmopars
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/01/09 01:44 AM
Have the intake shaved. I think you'll find that they took more then .004 off your heads.Also if you had only one bolt hole that needed to be oblonged then there is a mating surface problem. Shave the intake just a tad to true the surface. That should equal what was taken off your heads or at least get them closer to a tight fit.. Forget all about adding paper gaskets. You'll never get the intake to bolt down.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/01/09 04:41 AM
Quote:
Have the intake shaved.
Here it comes...
I'd suggest the same thing unless it's an ultra rare intake. In that case I'd pull the heads and have the intake face milled. Can you try/borrow another intake?
What I think is going on is a combination of things.
-More than .004" total taken off the heads throughout their service life.
-Block was decked at some point.
-The end rails weren't cut down to compensate for the head/block machining, and it's keeping the pan from sealing at the bottom of the ports.
Milling the intake is the easiest fix at this point. You may have to do it twice if your first educated guess isn't satisfactory. In your case you want the intake to sit as low as possible while still being able to get the bolts caught.
Spray Copper sealer without the paper gaskets is all that should be needed. IIRC only 2 colors of sealer are recommended for oil contact -- Ultra Blue and Black. I never had any luck with Black and only use Ultra Blue. It does need to cure for 24 hours though.
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/05/09 03:45 AM
Update: Took intake to a machine shop, they milled the intake 10 thousandths, he said it probably would need more. He also said that if i wanted to pull the heads that he would cc the chambers that he would see how much the heads were cut, to determine how much more would have to come off the intake. Reinstalled intake, new gasket still sucking oil, then I went as far to silicone the gasket and it is still sucking oil. Now I have pulled the head off, right where the lower row of cylinder head bolts measured the thickness got .990, I am told that stock is 1 inch. This is 10 thousandths shaved the heads, and rule of thumb is 1.5 for the intake, which already has had 10 thousandths taken off, if I go by these measurements that I have, I would need 5 thousandths more off...Would this make a big difference with it still sucking oil? Or should I have the 5 thousandths more taken off?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/05/09 04:10 AM
Quote:
Update: Took intake to a machine shop, they milled the intake 10 thousandths, he said it probably would need more. He also said that if i wanted to pull the heads that he would cc the chambers that he would see how much the heads were cut, to determine how much more would have to come off the intake. Reinstalled intake, new gasket still sucking oil, then I went as far to silicone the gasket and it is still sucking oil. Now I have pulled the head off, right where the lower row of cylinder head bolts measured the thickness got .990, I am told that stock is 1 inch. This is 10 thousandths shaved the heads, and rule of thumb is 1.5 for the intake, which already has had 10 thousandths taken off, if I go by these measurements that I have, I would need 5 thousandths more off...Would this make a big difference with it still sucking oil? Or should I have the 5 thousandths more taken off?
No, .005" won't make a difference. IIRC anything less than .010" is absorbed by the embossing on tray. Did you by chance check the bolt hole alignment of the intake before you took the head off?
I don't think cc'ing the head is relevant at this point. It looks like they were only shaved .010", that's minimal.
Can you try/borrow another intake from someone?
Posted By: SomeCarGuy
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/05/09 12:03 PM
The intake bolts don't go through the port, so sealing them doesn't do anything.
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/05/09 02:07 PM
ive oblonged the bolt holes,when the intake is set down ,with a few bolts in it looks like it needs to be cut more.also when i bolt one side first or tighten on bolt,i can see a gap on the opposite side,till all bolts are tightened.im probably gonna end up taking the engine to the machine shop to get the deck height checked unless i can check it my self ??
Posted By: 64Post
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/05/09 03:17 PM
Quote:
ive oblonged the bolt holes,when the intake is set down ,with a few bolts in it looks like it needs to be cut more.also when i bolt one side first or tighten on bolt,i can see a gap on the opposite side,till all bolts are tightened.im probably gonna end up taking the engine to the machine shop to get the deck height checked unless i can check it my self ??
Boy, I wish you had aluminum heads at this point, I've got an easy way to seal those.
Based on your previous posts we established that you had .004" gap. Now that the intake has been milled, repeat the same process you used to get the previous measurement of .004".
-Clean the sealer from the heads
-Bolt and torque one side of the intake down without the tray or a paper gasket.
-Check bolt hole alignment of the opposite side. Since you hogged the intake holes out a bit you want the bolts to favor the upper portion of the intake holes and barely be able to catch.
-Get the intake-head gap measurement.
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 03:54 PM
o.k reinstalled head ,torqued down cleaned all sealer bolted intake on driverside down,checked bolt hole alignment on passengerside ,good,all in center of holes. used feeler guage to find clearance,found 004. bolted passenger side down ,checked bolt hole alignment ,good ,in the center .used feeler guages again,found .008.
verified this 2x. now what?
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 04:28 PM
I cannot believe a good coating of RTV (high Heat) properly applied with a new valley pan will not fix this problem. apply liberally to both sides of gasket all around ports and bolt holes. apply some more to the bolts. let set for 15 minutes before assembly!! Then snug very lightly and walk away for at least one hour!! Then tighten nice and snug wait overnight and tighten again. then tighten once a week or two.
Maybe you have reversion from the cylinders but that would mean no oil ring seal at all??
What cam.
What rings not chrome I hope or low tension???
something is just not right
Don't use that blue silicone I used to used it cause it was Chrysler blue but it don't seal worth well you know!!!
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 04:38 PM
ive done all that ,left silicon harded for a few hrs. im using moly rings.every time i pulled the intake off all ports were covered in oil,also before i would pull the intake ,i would pull a plug or two,and they would be covered oil up to the threads.ive used all the silicones in the tubes blue orange and now black,also thread sealent on the intake bolts.man that 383 i have on the stand is looking real good about now.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 04:45 PM
Quote:
ive done all that ,left silicon harded for a few hrs. im using moly rings.every time i pulled the intake off all ports were covered in oil,also before i would pull the intake ,i would pull a plug or two,and they would be covered oil up to the threads.ive used all the silicones in the tubes blue orange and now black,also thread sealent on the intake bolts.man that 383 i have on the stand is looking real good about now.
Are you idling? Road testing? What are you doing and how many miles are you putting on the engine before finding oil in the ports?
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 04:50 PM
pulling the car out of the garage ,and letting it idle, the longest the car has ever ran was during break in .the car i usually let idle for about 10-15 minutes blip the throttle a few times ,car sounds awsomeby the way ,3 inch exhaust crane 528 lift cam,hooker 1 7/ headers speed. ill run it till i cant see the end of the car !!!
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 04:52 PM
Dam you would think when you pull the intake you could see if you had a good seal?? maybe you are kicking the wrong cat after all??? but for that much oil it would have to have
1. no valve seals at all and god awful guides??
2. Is it pulling oil directly into the intake via PVC. I had that problem once the stopper was gone in the PVC but it only smoked on start up and a guy cam over and said it may be A and dam it was??
Guess it would take a drink of oil on shutdown
A vented cap should be on the other valve cover????
have you done a compression test and leak down.
Have you pulled the valve covers to see that oil holes in rocker shafts are down and not up if they are installed up oil sprays all over!! Bin there on one bank at least back in the days before time!!
Is the breather on the other valve cover routed into carb breather too??
Just wondering if you are feeding it oil from two sources???
There is always a source and a solution finding the solution is the journey that is sometimes frustrating!!
How much oil in the oil pan. too much is not a good thing. (I bin there too!)
I assume no porting so no porting into oil??
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 04:58 PM
have you gotten a set of the paper gaskets yet ? I don't like silcone for sealing this , get the gaskets , one of each side of the valey , if it still sucks oil you have a misalignment . aslo check the valey end rails , is the intake hiting it or is there a gap ? I'd round those botom corners anyway and make sure yuoiu have a gap . too many times blocks get decked and the end rails do not get cut and the intake hits before the bolts can draw it tight .
Now you say when you bolt the intake to one head tight you have a gap on the other side of .004 ? You shouldn't have any gap .
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 05:01 PM
im not running a pcv valve its open,i have a breather on the other side. i can see the valve seals, when i pull the intake,the silicone around the ports are flat ,on the intake side,but under the valley pan its leaking/sucking under the ports and leaving a visible sign at the lower sectionson top of the valley pan ,that i cant see with the intake on the engine.rocker shafts are on correct,crane gold race rockers ,new hardened shafts ,checked a few times to make sure. ports were supposed to be done,ported.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 05:04 PM
Quote:
Dam you would think when you pull the intake you could see if you had a good seal?? maybe you are kicking the wrong cat after all??? but for that much oil it would have to have
1. no valve seals at all and god awful guides??
2. Is it pulling oil directly into the intake via PVC. I had that problem once the stopper was gone in the PVC but it only smoked on start up and a guy cam over and said it may be A and dam it was??
Guess it would take a drink of oil on shutdown
A vented cap should be on the other valve cover????
have you done a compression test and leak down.
Have you pulled the valve covers to see that oil holes in rocker shafts are down and not up if they are installed up oil sprays all over!! Bin there on one bank at least back in the days before time!!
Is the breather on the other valve cover routed into carb breather too??
Just wondering if you are feeding it oil from two sources???
There is always a source and a solution finding the solution is the journey that is sometimes frustrating!!
How much oil in the oil pan. too much is not a good thing. (I bin there too!)
I assume no porting so no porting into oil??
He said he did a comp. test and all were at 160 psi. I was thinking he may have washed out the rings, but the comp. seems to be good.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 05:09 PM
Quote:
when i pull the intake,the silicone around the ports are flat ,on the intake side,but under the valley pan its leaking/sucking under the ports and leaving a visible sign at the lower sectionson top of the valley pan ,that i cant see with the intake on the engine.
Since you're confident this is where the problem is -- and the evidence seems to bear this out -- this is why I've been focusing on port misalignment.
How much does the shop charge you to mill the intake?
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 05:10 PM
Well with crane golds doe not matter which way shafts are in. 1 inch is the usual boss height. 10 though is nothing but poor fitting at the bottom of the port is usually intake too wide. what type intake is it??
strange that all 8 get the same leak you would think with that much silicone you would get some ports sealing at least??
are the valve seals the black ones or the white machined ones?
how much oil in the pan????
both valve covers are vented???
some type of positve crankcase ventalation is needed (more is better)
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 05:13 PM
When you had the head off where the pistons washed. generally bad rings allow the top of the piston to be washed it will show up around the edges at the top of the piston will be clean in 1/2" to all the way as the oil coming up from the crank case washes any carbon build up away!
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 05:18 PM
7 quart oil pan,hi volume oil pump,edelbrock torquer 2 intake,mickey thompson valve covers. no pcv valveonly a few times have i pulled the intake one port would be oil free. looking down the ports at the valves,i can see the oil laying on the valve,pooled up.oil pressure is 65 at start up 55 fully warmed up.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 05:43 PM
That sounds to me like guides and seals. oil will not pool from the intake it will only get sucked in when the engine is running.
BUT IT will run Right in bad seals and guides just cause you can see seals does not mean they are good.
Black ones right!!!
PISTONS NOT WASHED??
go buy some edelbrock heads and be done! LOL!!
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 05:48 PM
yes black seals with the spring around them,tops of pistons are coated with oil. i believe they are 3/8 teflon?.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 06:05 PM
I had a set of the white teflon with the steel spring on my Indy heads and when we reassembled the new heads after porting at least five of them had tears (they tear easy when valves are pushed through especially if there is any ruffness on top of valve stem) had to change them in car as it was smoking bad. I use a differnet type now much more forgiving but still fit the machined guide.
I'm leaning to torn seals and maybe your guides leave something to be desired??
Posted By: kbeeper69
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 08:26 PM
well thanks for the replys i have work the next 2 nights ,soill rip into removing the springs and checking the stuff out . ill update asap .also it was mentioned about the valve seals previously ,but that seemed too easy!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: oil on spark plugs - 10/06/09 09:47 PM
My car was using a quart every tank full. Ends up they make like a 0.500 PC seal and a .530" PC seal. Quess which ones Comp stocks? The .530 won't stay put onto a .500 guide step.
Can you tell me which type of guide seal you use that is similar to the PC seal? Do they work for guide stems machined to 0'500"?