Moparts

newbie blues

Posted By: 71scamp440

newbie blues - 08/25/09 09:41 PM

im having a case of the newbie blues. im putting a set of 915 heads on a 400 block. all was going well until i got to the intake. my gaskets dont fit properly. i think its leaving the heat cross over open? do i need a special intake with these heads. both the 400 intake and a 440 intake fit fine with the exception of this hole being wide open. what do i need to do to solve this problem?

Attached picture 5440219-intake.jpg
Posted By: johnedod

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 09:45 PM

That area in the center of the head above the gasket is supposed to be open. The cross over is the small hole. No problem they are all like that.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 09:50 PM

Yeah that area stays open but you should have a bathtub style gasket... Those paper gaskets are just to help seal aliminum intakes & are used in conjunction with the bathtub.... Personally I never use them, to me they cause more problems then they solve....
Posted By: 71scamp440

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 09:53 PM

Quote:

That area in the center of the head above the gasket is supposed to be open. The cross over is the small hole. No problem they are all like that.




they just stay wide open?
what purpose does that hole serve?
Posted By: 71scamp440

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 09:55 PM

Quote:

Yeah that area stays open but you should have a bathtub style gasket... Those paper gaskets are just to help seal aliminum intakes & are used in conjunction with the bathtub.... Personally I never use them, to me they cause more problems then they solve....




ive got the valley pan gasket, i was just using those for the pic
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 09:55 PM

Quote:


what purpose does that hole serve?




It separates the hot exhuast crossover passage from areas where oil flows, oil in direct contact with ezcess heat causes the oil to cook and form hard deposits known as coke deposits...

Oh BTW lots of guys use a gasket designed to block the head to the intake... It greatly reduces the tendancy of the fuel to boil out of the carb fuel bowls... Newer fuels are designed for fuel injected vehicles & don't react well to excess heat without being pressurized like fuel injection does...
Posted By: johnedod

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 09:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

That area in the center of the head above the gasket is supposed to be open. The cross over is the small hole. No problem they are all like that.




they just stay wide open?
what purpose does that hole serve?



I THINK it is just an air space to help keep the oil from coking up under the valve cover in that area. Key word is THINK.
Posted By: johnedod

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 09:58 PM

Sorry R/T didn't know you had already posted.
Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 10:00 PM

If your valley pan gasket is new then don't use the paper gaskets. Just a tiny bit of RTV around the openings is all thats needed.
Posted By: etek

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 10:00 PM

funny - I rebuilt my first 318 too and was waiting for oil or water to flow out of them holes when I stareted it up - even though I'd been told and read they should be open!!!
Nothing happened, runs OK!
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 10:00 PM

Quote:

Sorry R/T didn't know you had already posted.




We all get to play...
Posted By: 71scamp440

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 10:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:


what purpose does that hole serve?




It separates the hot exhuast crossover passage from areas where oil flows, oil in direct contact with ezcess heat causes the oil to cook and form hard deposits known as coke deposits...

Oh BTW lots of guys use a gasket designed to block the head to the intake... It greatly reduces the tendancy of the fuel to boil out of the carb fuel bowls... Newer fuels are designed for fuel injected vehicles & don't react well to excess heat without being pressurized like fuel injection does...




what kind of gasket to i need? ive got the valley pan gasket. do i need the one with the crossover blocked?
Posted By: 71scamp440

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 10:10 PM

Quote:

funny - I rebuilt my first 318 too and was waiting for oil or water to flow out of them holes when I stareted it up - even though I'd been told and read they should be open!!!
Nothing happened, runs OK!




i didnt even dare bolt the intake on. i could see myself having to take it back off, after it sprayed oil and coolant all over my engine compartment.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 10:15 PM

Quote:


what kind of gasket to i need? ive got the valley pan gasket. do i need the one with the crossover blocked?




Yeah, Felpro makes one with it blocked, I'll see if I can find the number... FWIW some guys don't like blocking the heat, in the old days I didn't either, but the fuel has gotten to the point you've gotta do something..


Felpro #1214

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FPP-1214/
Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 10:16 PM

If it's not a full race motor and your just driving the car for fun don't worry about the crossover. Mother Mopar didn't think it was a problem and thousands of them are running around with it open as designed. My GTX has a fairly healthy 440 and mine are not blocked and no problem with fuel boilling.
Posted By: 71scamp440

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 10:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:


what kind of gasket to i need? ive got the valley pan gasket. do i need the one with the crossover blocked?




Yeah, Felpro makes one with it blocked, I'll see if I can find the number... FWIW some guys don't like blocking the heat, in the old days I didn't either, but the fuel has gotten to the point you've gotta do something..




thanks for all your help. does it make the engine run at a hotter temp then normal when they are blocked off?
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 10:29 PM

Quote:

If it's not a full race motor and your just driving the car for fun don't worry about the crossover. Mother Mopar didn't think it was a problem and thousands of them are running around with it open as designed. My GTX has a fairly healthy 440 and mine are not blocked and no problem with fuel boilling.




When Ma Mopar designed these cars/engines fuel was completely different than it is today...

You don't want to block the heat, that's fine, the fuel isn't gonna get any better & in California we already get what you will be getting... But we also have a warmer climate which amplifies the problem.. Personally I see the intake being off right now as an opportunity to improve the future starting/driving of thew engine...

BTW I edited my above post with the pt #


Oh and as far as the engine temp with the crossover blocked, it actually runs cooler..
Posted By: 71scamp440

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 10:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:


what kind of gasket to i need? ive got the valley pan gasket. do i need the one with the crossover blocked?




Yeah, Felpro makes one with it blocked, I'll see if I can find the number... FWIW some guys don't like blocking the heat, in the old days I didn't either, but the fuel has gotten to the point you've gotta do something..


Felpro #1214

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FPP-1214/




thanks r/t! i appreciate the advice
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: newbie blues - 08/25/09 10:59 PM

Glad these guys got you fixed up.
Make sure there are no extra parts in the big open area, and try not to drop anything (carb nuts and clips) down there.
Posted By: wingman

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 12:31 AM

Quote:

what purpose does that hole serve?




Old timer told me it was where he put his cigarette butts while working on the car.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 01:37 AM

get the valley pan gasket w the holes blocked. Trust us on this one.
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 01:47 AM

Quote:

im having a case of the newbie blues. im putting a set of 915 heads on a 400 block. all was going well until i got to the intake. my gaskets dont fit properly. i think its leaving the heat cross over open? do i need a special intake with these heads. both the 400 intake and a 440 intake fit fine with the exception of this hole being wide open. what do i need to do to solve this problem?




Either I'm reading your post wrong but the 440 intake will not fit the 400 block.If you are refering to gaskets,then you're ok.
Posted By: Lefty

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 04:40 AM

Quote:

get the valley pan gasket w the holes blocked. Trust us on this one.




Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 06:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

That area in the center of the head above the gasket is supposed to be open. The cross over is the small hole. No problem they are all like that.




they just stay wide open?
what purpose does that hole serve?




To hold the crap you drop or mouse turds when the cars sit for a long time. Or...

Attached picture 5441347-Mopartspic3.jpg
Posted By: JimG

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 10:59 AM

Quote:


Yeah, Felpro makes one with it blocked, I'll see if I can find the number... FWIW some guys don't like blocking the heat, in the old days I didn't either, but the fuel has gotten to the point you've gotta do something..


Felpro #1214

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FPP-1214/




Have you guys had problems with the "blocked" portion of the gasket burning through?

I never tried the FelPro, but I had a Mr. Gasket burn through once. Now, I use .030" stainless steel shim stock in that area, even if the gasket is already blocked. I had read that only stainless steel will survive in that environment, and the burned through gasket seemed to confirm that.

Perhaps I'm needlessly going overboard; I'd like to hear your experiences.

Thanks!
Posted By: 71scamp440

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 12:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

im having a case of the newbie blues. im putting a set of 915 heads on a 400 block. all was going well until i got to the intake. my gaskets dont fit properly. i think its leaving the heat cross over open? do i need a special intake with these heads. both the 400 intake and a 440 intake fit fine with the exception of this hole being wide open. what do i need to do to solve this problem?




Either I'm reading your post wrong but the 440 intake will not fit the 400 block.If you are refering to gaskets,then you're ok.




yes i meant the gaskets, intake itself is too wide
Posted By: 71scamp440

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 12:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

That area in the center of the head above the gasket is supposed to be open. The cross over is the small hole. No problem they are all like that.




they just stay wide open?
what purpose does that hole serve?




To hold the crap you drop or mouse turds when the cars sit for a long time. Or...




awsome answer gtx matt. best one ive seen yet.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 12:57 PM

You can block it off w/ a small square of thin metal, like an old valley pan gasket or roof flashing. That is unless your valley pan gasket has it blocked already. caut the piece a little bigger thean the hole, use some sealer on each side and lay the intake down. FWIW I would have laid the intake on before you installed the paper. Sometimes the paper gaskets make the intake not want to fit too well.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 12:59 PM

oh yeah the 440 intake WILL NOT fit on the 400. You'll need a different one.
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 01:21 PM

nothing much to add here from me!

block it, leave it open...it's your choice.

to help you decide--some theory behind it! the reason it was there originally, was because these cars were driven year round...or at least, engineered to drive year round. that's why the carbs have chokes, the exhaust has those little flapper valves and the intakes are heated with exhaust gasses. the passenger side "flapper valve" thingy was shut when the engine was cold. this blocked the exhaust (not entirely though) and made it go through that port, through the intake, and out the driver side exhaust. this was to heat up the intake, and to help the fuel atomize, or stay atomized as it passed through the intake, as well as simply warm it up to make it easier to burn. as the engine warmed up, your choke would open up from engine heat, and that flapper valve would also open up, allowing the exhaust an easier shot at going out instead of through the cross over (but, some will still go through it even at full operating temps)

today's cars are usually NOT driven year round, and some semblance of performance is desired from them. for maximum performance you want a free flowing exhaust, free flowing intake, and a COLD air/fuel mix coming into the engine because colder air is more dense, and has more O2 to burn, making more power...thats why Cold Air Intakes are so popular...even if they only provide you with 2 or 3 hp. (they all advertise 15-20 though! some do, some dont!)

so...ask yourself, is this a summer only vehicle? or will it be used year round?

mine is a summer only toy, so my cross over is blocked, and the exhaust is free from any "flapper valve" (sorry, I don't know what it was actually called), and my Carb does NOT have a choke. It really doesn't like to start when it's 45 degrees or less outside, and even when it's 85, I gotta sit there and hold it at 1500-2000 rpms for a few minutes until it warms up enough to idle without stalling.

but once warmed up, it idles great, and hot starts are NEVER a problem.

now you have the information to make the decision on your own, instead of just counting up how many people have said "I have mine open" compared to how many said "I have mine closed"
Posted By: 71scamp440

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 07:00 PM

Quote:

nothing much to add here from me!

block it, leave it open...it's your choice.

to help you decide--some theory behind it! the reason it was there originally, was because these cars were driven year round...or at least, engineered to drive year round. that's why the carbs have chokes, the exhaust has those little flapper valves and the intakes are heated with exhaust gasses. the passenger side "flapper valve" thingy was shut when the engine was cold. this blocked the exhaust (not entirely though) and made it go through that port, through the intake, and out the driver side exhaust. this was to heat up the intake, and to help the fuel atomize, or stay atomized as it passed through the intake, as well as simply warm it up to make it easier to burn. as the engine warmed up, your choke would open up from engine heat, and that flapper valve would also open up, allowing the exhaust an easier shot at going out instead of through the cross over (but, some will still go through it even at full operating temps)

today's cars are usually NOT driven year round, and some semblance of performance is desired from them. for maximum performance you want a free flowing exhaust, free flowing intake, and a COLD air/fuel mix coming into the engine because colder air is more dense, and has more O2 to burn, making more power...thats why Cold Air Intakes are so popular...even if they only provide you with 2 or 3 hp. (they all advertise 15-20 though! some do, some dont!)

so...ask yourself, is this a summer only vehicle? or will it be used year round?

mine is a summer only toy, so my cross over is blocked, and the exhaust is free from any "flapper valve" (sorry, I don't know what it was actually called), and my Carb does NOT have a choke. It really doesn't like to start when it's 45 degrees or less outside, and even when it's 85, I gotta sit there and hold it at 1500-2000 rpms for a few minutes until it warms up enough to idle without stalling.

but once warmed up, it idles great, and hot starts are NEVER a problem.

now you have the information to make the decision on your own, instead of just counting up how many people have said "I have mine open" compared to how many said "I have mine closed"




thanks 70 cuda. i think im going to leave mine open for now. in N.Y where i live 45 degrees can happen in the middle of summer, so i better leave it open. but then again im gonna run a manual choke so it doesnt matter either way i guess. 6 of one and a half dozen of another.
Posted By: 70Sbird

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 09:10 PM

Someone alluded to this before, but anytine I drop anything from the carb linkage, small bolts washers, clips etc.... that exposed open area acts as a black hole and sucks parts in and is a bear to get them fished back out!
I dropped a washer from my accelerator cable connection in there last night, went after it, and it is still hiding in thete!
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: newbie blues - 08/26/09 09:18 PM

Quote:


thanks 70 cuda. i think im going to leave mine open for now. in N.Y where i live 45 degrees can happen in the middle of summer, so i better leave it open. but then again im gonna run a manual choke so it doesnt matter either way i guess. 6 of one and a half dozen of another.




yea...not sure it matters...the choke WILL make cold starts easier. but, that is countered by the air flow restriction the choke horn makes.

no choke means more airflow into the carb... but if you're running the heat cross over, then it's going to be hot air!

at one point, I had an edelbrock carb with electric choke on my truck, with the heat cross over blocked, and it would fire off almost immediately, sit on the high idle cam for 15-20 seconds, blip the throttle, and it would idle like it had been running for 30 minutes!

I would consider a choke with blocked off cross over before I would consider no choke with it open.

once it's warmed up, you don't really need the heat cross over, and a cold start...there's no heat in there to help out anyway! that's where the choke helps out!
Posted By: 71scamp440

Re: newbie blues - 08/27/09 12:52 PM

Quote:

Someone alluded to this before, but anytine I drop anything from the carb linkage, small bolts washers, clips etc.... that exposed open area acts as a black hole and sucks parts in and is a bear to get them fished back out!
I dropped a washer from my accelerator cable connection in there last night, went after it, and it is still hiding in thete!





too funny. my fingers are too fat to get in there anyway. i would have to use a flexible magnet or something to get down in there.
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