Manuel brake question

Posted By: Dougsmopars

Manuel brake question - 08/09/09 08:17 PM

I seem to have to push down pedal with excess force to stop. I understand there not power, i've owned a number of manuel brake mopars over the years. There 11X3 front and 11X21/2 rears. I've replaced the shoes and hardware kits and self adjusters, had the drums truned. Bled them several times, replaced the master, bench bled that. Car will stop. If you jamb the pedal it will lock the wheels. But still need to push the pedal very had to stop. Something is still not right. Any suggestions? Down the road i may change to disc but for now need to get these working properly. I'm running out of ideas on this one.

Posted By: HPMike

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/09/09 08:46 PM

I have very limited experience with Manuel brakes. I have however worked on several Jose and Miguel brake systems so I'll give it my best shot..

(just kidding, couldn't resist

)

Seriously, i would focus on two areas. Is the master an actual manual drum cylinder? Both fluid compartments(front and rear) are equal and small. I have seen some that have disc brake masters installed with all drums. It will work, but you will have pedal feel issues. The other area I would look is are the shoes glazed? This will cause the drum brake shoes to lose some of their ability to "self energize" when they come into contact with the drum wear surface.

Good Luck,

MB

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/09/09 09:19 PM

Quote:

I have very limited experience with Manuel brakes. I have however worked on several Jose and Miguel brake systems so I'll give it my best shot..

(just kidding, couldn't resist )

Seriously, i would focus on two areas. Is the master an actual manual drum cylinder? Both fluid compartments(front and rear) are equal and small. I have seen some that have disc brake masters installed with all drums. It will work, but you will have pedal feel issues. The other area I would look is are the shoes glazed? This will cause the drum brake shoes to lose some of their ability to "self energize" when they come into contact with the drum wear surface.

Good Luck,

MB

What about flex lines that are internally deteriorated? I've seen that once, but the brakes pulled to one side. Could they be equally deteriorated????

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/09/09 09:37 PM

Has it always been like this?. What bore is the M/C. I the exact same symptoms once & it was a partially crimped front line though I dont think that is your issue.

Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/09/09 09:55 PM

master is a manuel drum master. No pull when breaking. I do get a little less pressure from front's when bleeding. Brakes work, will lock the front wheels but seems to need excessive pedal force to stop. Nice firm pedal, no fading, not soft. Car was born with power brakes. Last owner changed to manuel because of poor vac with big cam. When i drove the car stopping power was horrible. Thats when i did the brake job. Much better but not right. I don't know the exact bore. The master is a replacement for a 68 GTX. The best way to discribe the feel is like when power brakes loose the vac and it takes excessive force to stop the car. Pedal is hard but not stopping very quick. Car has plenty of go now need the woe.

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/09/09 10:00 PM

If the car was changed from power to manual was the MC installed on the power brake location on the firewall? If so, the pedal ratio is too low for manual brakes; the manual MC is mounted higher on the firewall and the pedal ratio is higher.

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/09/09 10:29 PM

There is a plate that goes on the FW if you have manual brakes.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/09/09 10:40 PM

Quote:

If the car was changed from power to manual was the MC installed on the power brake location on the firewall? If so, the pedal ratio is too low for manual brakes; the manual MC is mounted higher on the firewall and the pedal ratio is higher.

Nice call.

Interesting to see if they did that on this car. I'd say it was a good bet.

Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/09/09 10:43 PM

I had this ame issue with Gina's 72 charger. It was an OE power that was converted to manual.

Turns out the pedal assy inside is different. The power brake cars use a reduction linkge so the master does not get the full effort of your foot the way a true manual pedal assy does.

Might be the same in your car. What kind of car is it?

Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/10/09 01:48 AM

Has the plate. No reduction linkage. Pedal is right where it belongs. Appling full presure it might go half way down.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/10/09 02:19 AM

Quote:

I seem to have to push down pedal with excess force to stop. Car will stop. If you jamb the pedal it will lock the wheels. But still need to push the pedal very had to stop.

I'm thinking a smaller bore M/C to give you better leverage

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/10/09 02:30 AM

Deleted prior to arrival of politically biased moderators

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/10/09 02:38 AM

440sixpack has an excellent point, premium shoes make a world of difference

Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/10/09 02:56 PM

Shoes are Bendix. I'll pull a wheel off and check for glazing. Drums are within spec. They are adjusted well and not dragging. I've looked into better shoes but so far can't find 11X3. If you know of any company that has 11X3 let me know. I've checked a few of the performance brake companies and only find 11X2 1/2

Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/10/09 03:02 PM

Does the push rod bolt directly to the brake pedal?

Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/10/09 04:12 PM

yes it does

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/10/09 04:30 PM

Quote:

I've looked into better shoes but so far can't find 11X3. If you know of any company that has 11X3 let me know.

You are in luck, there's a guy on eGay selling velvetouch full mettalic linings from the 60's & I bought several sets for my circle burner & I just checked & there are (2) Mopar sets left & one is the 11x3 that you are in need of & he's reduced the price to $50. I'm 'bout tempted to get em myself. guys that used them way back said they were awesome & would eat up drums but they worked.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/10/09 05:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I've looked into better shoes but so far can't find 11X3. If you know of any company that has 11X3 let me know.

You are in luck, there's a guy on eGay selling velvetouch full mettalic linings from the 60's & I bought several sets for my circle burner & I just checked & there are (2) Mopar sets left & one is the 11x3 that you are in need of & he's reduced the price to $50. I'm 'bout tempted to get em myself. guys that used them way back said they were awesome & would eat up drums but they worked.

I dont know that I'd recommend those. The characteristics of metallic/ velvetouch can be "touchy" They are MEANT for things like circle tracks and very hilly country where you use the brakes a lot and keep them warm. They don't stop worth $$$$ when cold, and worse, some of those would "come on" unpredictably. Friend of mine had them for awhile on his '70 Chev 3/4 4x4 back then. He'd be driving say, down the freeway, and have to make a hard stop for a traffic tie up. He'd step on the brakes, and they wouldn't do much, he'd step harder, and suddenly they'd START TO WORK as they warmed up, and you'd have to be RIGHT "on it" to LET UP on pedal pressure. He took them off the truck. They are VERY VERY hard on brake drums.

Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/11/09 08:50 PM

I'm wondering about the ceramic shoes???? Wonder if they work well and doin't eat up drums. Them 11 drums ain't cheap.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/11/09 09:28 PM

Doug on a prior brake thread 4 or 5 people touted Ceramic shoes & no mention of them eating drums which(from reports) would for sure be a problem w velvetouch(or other metallic) shoes. I was just thinking that $65 to your door might not be a bad deal(& it would depend on the cold performance and how fast they gobbled up those(not cheap) drums). they'll work for me in my app as I need the lightest weight I can get by with & still have enough sq in of area to stop adequately & 9" used early A drums are cheap & I certainly wont have a problem with running cool

Posted By: Dougsmopars

Re: Manuel brake question - 08/12/09 12:39 AM

This car is a street car. I plan on using quite a bit. 11X3 drums are expensive. I need this car to stop right out of the drive way. Not a race car. Don't have time to heat them up. I'm gonna look into the ceramics. Mashing the pedal is fun but stopping is your friend.