440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!!

Posted By: Cudalord

440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/03/09 10:58 PM

I've tried just about everything. I'm exhausted by this and honestly, at this point, I am about to yank the motor and replace it, as I've tried everything. The car peaks at about 240, no matter if I'm on the freeway, at idle, driving down the road at 25, 35, 45, 55 miles per hour.

I tried a high flow thermostat and water pump, no difference. I went back to a stock water pump and thermostat - no difference. I tried high flow water pump with stock thermostat then with no thermostat- no difference. I pretty much tried every combination with/without thermostats to confirm it is not a flow issue. It's not.

I tried a BECool radiator. I tried a stock radiator. I tried a fan shroud with a viscous fan, high flow fan, clutch fan, non clutch fan. I tried an electric puller fan (dual) on the BeCool radiator. No difference.

I tried running straight water, I tried 50/50 w/antifreeze and distilled water. I tried straight water with water wetter. I tried 25 antifreeze/75 water with water wetter. Nothing made a difference.

I tried changing the timing. I tried it at 38 degrees WOT with the vacuum removed. It ran like crap and pings like crazy and still runs hot. I tried running advanced and retarded timing, and everything in between. No difference.

The motor is a stock rebuild. Nothing fancy, never been bored out. Mild cam, nothing radical. I lost the specs, but it's a Mopar Purple camshaft for street/crusing. It ran hot prior to replacing the camshaft anyway. I'm running electronic ignition, I have the water ports on the water pump housing plugged as I'm not running a heater. Edelbrock airgap manifold with 750 CFM Electric choke carb. TTI headers and exhaust system. I had a 600 CFM on it previously, still ran hot.

I've tried every little trick and have ran hundreds of internet searches looking for the magic answer. Nothing I do makes a difference.

I am running an autometer gauge. It is accurate. I can tell because when I open the hood my face practically gets burned off. It's HOT. No question about it.

I gave the motor a rebuild about 10 years back, and it hasn't seen a whole lot of miles. Probably around 15K total. I can only drive it in the winter here (AZ) because the car overheats when ambient temp is over 90 or so....

Help, I've just about given up on this 440, but though I'd give it one last hurrah....

Posted By: landon1

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/03/09 11:05 PM

hmmm....that is interesting - i was going to say get a different gauge, but if it actually is HOT under hood, pry not that. my aftermarket gauge was always reading about 225, but it wasn't that hot - gauge was just junk.

is this a new problem or something that's been that way since the rebuild? using a fan shroud? maybe have to run an oil cooler and a deep pan...that still probably wouldn't drop the temps 50 degrees though.

Posted By: goldmember

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/03/09 11:13 PM

"I am running an autometer gauge. It is accurate. I can tell because when I open the hood my face practically gets burned off. It's HOT. No question about it."

Have you compared the gauge readings to a thermometer or alternate gauge? I've had Autometer electric temp gauges that were very inaccurate.

Posted By: moparts

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/03/09 11:25 PM

Have you tried changing or checking the water pump?

Old pump? Blade good on the pump, Try a Cat high flow pump?

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/03/09 11:41 PM

I wonder if there is a slight leak of combustion gasses into the coolant

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 12:24 AM

With all the things you tried, I would say you would at least have to see 'some' change in temps.

Try to back up the existing tempgauge with another one to really make sure it's not faulty.

Quote:

I tried changing the timing. I tried it at 38 degrees WOT with the vacuum removed. It ran like crap and pings like crazy and still runs hot.

Are you sure the timing chain-sprockets aren't off by a good amount, offsetting valvetiming?
An engine shouldn't run 'crap' with a fairly 'normal' 38� WOT timing IMO.

Does the lower radiator-hose still has the iron spriral springs inside it? If not the hose might collapse during driving by the vacuum of the waterpump.

Just some ideas.

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 01:27 AM

Yes, I have checked these. I've been through about 4 different pumps, including the High Volume pump. Right now I'm running a stock NEW pump.

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 01:34 AM

Quote:

Are you sure the timing chain-sprockets aren't off by a good amount, offsetting valvetiming?
An engine shouldn't run 'crap' with a fairly 'normal' 38� WOT timing IMO.
--------------------------------------------

You may be onto something with the timing. I rebuilt the motor a long time ago and like I said it's always run hot when ambient temp is over 90. Will this cause it to overheat? I tried setting the timing today at 38 at about 3000 RPMs today, and it pinged like crazy and ran like crap - no power. I tuned it by ear, and I think right now it's at about 25 Degrees at 3000 RPM. Runs great, lots of power, no pinging.

Not sure if it ran hot prior to the rebiuld, as I bought it from someone out of the car, and rebuilt it when I got it prior to ever running it.

FYI, I'm using an adjustable timing light.

Brand new upper and lower radiator hose (goodyear) WITH the spring. I recently flushed the system until the water ran clear and refilled the system at about 50/50 antifreeze and water.

The temp gauge is NOT an issue. It's the second one I've had in the car, and the other one showed hot. The boil over and heat from the engine is telling me the Temp Gauge is correct.

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 01:36 AM

I wonder if there is a slight leak of combustion gasses into the coolant

-------------------------

I've considered that too. I was going to buy a radiator pressure gauge to see if that is an issue. BUT, it doesn't blow any white smoke and the oil is nice and clear.

Posted By: goldmember

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 01:37 AM

It's easy to check.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 01:45 AM

Quote:

I tried setting the timing today at 38 at about 3000 RPMs today, and it pinged like crazy and ran like crap - no power. I tuned it by ear, and I think right now it's at about 25 Degrees at 3000 RPM. Runs great, lots of power, no pinging.

Something ain't right. You might check/find TDC then make a quick mark on the dampener 2&1/4" CW from the orig TDC mark(if good) & power time it to that(vac disconnected) which is(35.5 degrees). easy to do & that'll get you in the ballpark timingwise & ans that possibility.

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 01:57 AM

Quote:

It's easy to check.

What's easy to check, the pressure?

I've heard before that the wrong head gasket can cause these problems. It is a 1973 motor and I put in FPP - 1009 gaskets.

Posted By: goldmember

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 02:01 AM

You can pick up a tester at the Zone or Advance to replace the cap. You can tell if you have a HG leak or other problem causing excess cooling system pressure.

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 02:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

It's easy to check.

What's easy to check, the pressure?

I've heard before that the wrong head gasket can cause these problems. It is a 1973 motor and I put in FPP - 1009 gaskets. [/quote0)

This what I suspected when I read this, you might have a bad head gasket pressurizing the cooling system,.....you want a back yard quick test, check the cooling system level, fill it within about 1" below the radiator neck, put the radiator cap back on, but instead of tightening it, just 1 click tight, then back it off without pushing down on it,you want the cap loose, but ingaged on the tangs this will keep fluid from surging out the neck but allow pressure to exscape, drive the car, you may puke some fluid until the level adjust it self, if the car dosen't overheat,.....time to pull the heads, chances are you just need gaskets, but a crack in the head or block is possible?

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 04:30 AM

take it out & get it good & hot, pull into your driveway, shut it off & drain some coolant & take off the upper rad hose/stat/housing/fan belt(for the water pump) & pour some coolant back in to just the top of the wp housing and start it up & see if theres any bubbles(or overflow) coming up out of there in several minutes max as you've temporarily disabled the WP. EDIT you've created a dead calm in your cooling system and rev it up several times also

Posted By: johnzgarage

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 04:46 AM

I had the very same problem. Would go over 240 at idle.I tried every way to fix it....I learned the hard way how important a simple fan shroud is.As a test,I made a simple shroud out of cardboard and duct tape so the fan could only suck through the rad core .It went from 240+ to 180....my thermostate will open and close....almost to cool. Having a fan to far away from the rad with no shroud or out of the shroud is the most common problem.

Posted By: JSSuperbee

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 06:05 AM

I too have the overheating problem on my newly rebuilt 383. My Bee was manufactured without a shroud. Certainly these cars built without shrouds were engineered to operate in the proper heat range. According to a recent publication by Paul Hurd....cars manufactured with the 22" radiator only received shrouds when they were equipped with A/C or the MAX COOL option.

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 06:10 AM

Quote:

I had the very same problem. Would go over 240 at idle.I tried every way to fix it....I learned the hard way how important a simple fan shroud is.As a test,I made a simple shroud out of cardboard and duct tape so the fan could only suck through the rad core .It went from 240+ to 180....my thermostate will open and close....almost to cool. Having a fan to far away from the rad with no shroud or out of the shroud is the most common problem.

Right now I have the electric fan on it. It runs noticeably cooler when the temp outside is below 90, so I stuck with it. I've tried the stock setup and just about every combination. NOT a shroud issue... I wish it was that simple....

Posted By: ademon

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 06:16 AM

is the system holding presure? i noticed the open systems are very sensitive to the right water level too much and it will puke, too little and it will not hold psi.

Posted By: JSSuperbee

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 06:58 AM

Yeah, it's holding pressure. I had the radiator checked by a professional and he said the radiator is in excellent condition. My big question is......I've changed nothing except a rebuild and .030 over, why would it need a shroud now if it didn't need one when it was manufactured?

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 07:06 AM

Quote:

Yeah, it's holding pressure. I had the radiator checked by a professional and he said the radiator is in excellent condition. My big question is......I've changed nothing except a rebuild and .030 over, why would it need a shroud now if it didn't need one when it was manufactured?

Don't hijack my post dude, I'm on a mission. haha!!!

Posted By: charger RTSE

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 10:29 AM

water pump pulley have you tried a differant sized one so the pump will turn quicker say a smaller one of an Air Con car.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 11:51 AM

Quote:

You need a better fan and a shroud. My stock cooling system can idle all day long with the AC cranking. You need a 7 blade fan and shroud, I'm telling you.
How much initial timing do you have and what is the total?

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 12:40 PM

Quote:

I too have the overheating problem on my newly rebuilt 383. My Bee was manufactured without a shroud. Certainly these cars built without shrouds were engineered to operate in the proper heat range. According to a recent publication by Paul Hurd....cars manufactured with the 22" radiator only received shrouds when they were equipped with A/C or the MAX COOL option.

That would only be true if the car was an A body , everything else with A/C and/or MAX COOL had a 26" radiator

Posted By: bee1971

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 01:03 PM

"The car peaks at about 240, no matter if I'm on the freeway, at idle, driving down the road at 25, 35, 45, 55 miles per hour."

Did some of you read the first post

240 on the freeway / driving down the road

What the hell is a shroud/fan going to do on the freeway to fix the issue NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING Now if it was only at idle sitting in stopped traffic that would bee a different story

IT sounds like you have exhausted all options

Now its time to look internally/engine/heads like others have mentioned

Timing Chain and timing
Head Gaskets
Coolant flow thru the blocks and heads/RESTRICTION somewere or blocked

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/04/09 01:26 PM

ditti on the timing...bring it to TDC not by the timing mark either.... the car should run like ppoo pooo w/ that low of timing, my guess is something's up w/ that. if you had a head leak it'd either blow it out the back or you'd have a bunch of pressure into the rad.. goooood luck.

Posted By: BigTerry

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/05/09 01:55 AM

wrong head gasket??

Posted By: chargers777

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/05/09 03:26 AM

Plugging the heater hose ports might cause a problem with circulation.Can you hook your hoses or is your heater core bad?If it is loop a hose in a loop and connect them together and see if it helps.Easy to try but if that is not it I would look at the head gasket.Also what size diameter water pump pulley are you running-smaller is better.

Posted By: sthemi

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/05/09 04:21 AM

The lost secret is the impeller blades on AC cars were smaller and moved less water per revolution than the standard pump, and this was necessary because the pulley diameters changed for AC cars and they turned the pump much faster than non AC cars.
The correct answer is the non ac pump impellers
8 fins as I remember and a towing fan 7 blade fixed hub) And the correct diameter pulleys for the crank and water pump.
Everything must match... a 4 row copper/brass radiator will help as well.

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/05/09 06:43 AM

The only thing that sticks out to me is that you seem to have better luck when the timing is "off"- pointing to the TDC mark being off.

I would also look in the radiator again. I had a car that was cooking itself to death. I had the radiator boiled out and it did great- got lots of sand out.

All was well until I raced a guy for several miles one night on the interstate. Car boiled over like you would expect. The the next day it was overheating again like before. I looked over all sorts of stuff and happened to look down the neck as I went to refill it again. MORE sand had been pushed out.

Posted By: Blue66Charger

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/06/09 12:48 AM

My money is on timing. EAsy and cheap to check - follow previous timing suggestions to check!

Posted By: BigTerry

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/06/09 02:03 AM

did you bore the block .040 or over? a friend of mine had a overheating problem on a 383 he built for a street car it was bored .060 it ran hot from day one he talk to a fellow who built race engine for some nascar teams a few year back he said the cylinder wall where too thin and was heating the coolant up! said that would happen on any motor bore .045 or more those motor would only be good for Drag racing unless he want to spend the extra money for a better cooling system and electric fan..

Posted By: Paul_Fancsali

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/06/09 05:06 PM

Are you running headers or manifolds. I found out the hard way that some engines need headers period with a cam above stock replacement. I chased a running warm problem for 3 month's until I put the headers back on and problem solved/225 to 185 on a 85 degree day with a 180stat

Posted By: Cudalord

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/08/09 05:42 AM

Well, after doing some research and listening to your suggestions, I decided to check out the timing. So, I did the following:

I put the #1 to TDC by rotating the engine until the comp stroke and aligned on the balancer to exact TDC. I confirmed it was at TDC by removing the valve covers and noticed the intake/exhaust rockers were loose.

Pulled out the distributor and saw something interesting. The gear drive was not exactly in line with the camshaft. It was off one tooth. I put it in line with the camshaft, made absolute the rotor was pointing to #1 and put back together.

I then put a mark on the balancer per the previous recommendation, and used that to set timing.

After doing all this, I did notice the car ran considerably smoother and had a lot of power. No pinging or anything. I was hoping it would run cooler, which it did stay under 200 while having it running in the garage for about 15 minutes. Tomorrow I'm taking it out for my morning commute to see how it holds up.

I didn't put the thermostat back in yet, but I don't think this will have anything to do while it's running at/above operating temp, right? I'm putting it back in tomorrow anyway since I didn't notice any difference with it out or in....

Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/08/09 07:17 AM

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/08/09 11:10 AM

" didn't put the thermostat back in yet, but I don't think this will have anything to do while it's running at/above operating temp, right? I'm putting it back in tomorrow anyway since I didn't notice any difference with it out or in...."

good job on finding the problem, yes the thermo in will help cooling as it allows the water to saty in the Rad long enough to get cool..well coooler anyway. 200 isn't bad.

Posted By: 05dakota

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/08/09 03:21 PM

UNLESS the balancer mark was off, you basicly changed nothing

Quote:

Well, after doing some research and listening to your suggestions, I decided to check out the timing. So, I did the following:

I put the #1 to TDC by rotating the engine until the comp stroke and aligned on the balancer to exact TDC. I confirmed it was at TDC by removing the valve covers and noticed the intake/exhaust rockers were loose.

Pulled out the distributor and saw something interesting. The gear drive was not exactly in line with the camshaft. It was off one tooth. I put it in line with the camshaft, made absolute the rotor was pointing to #1 and put back together.

I then put a mark on the balancer per the previous recommendation, and used that to set timing.

After doing all this, I did notice the car ran considerably smoother and had a lot of power. No pinging or anything. I was hoping it would run cooler, which it did stay under 200 while having it running in the garage for about 15 minutes. Tomorrow I'm taking it out for my morning commute to see how it holds up.

I didn't put the thermostat back in yet, but I don't think this will have anything to do while it's running at/above operating temp, right? I'm putting it back in tomorrow anyway since I didn't notice any difference with it out or in....

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/08/09 03:30 PM

Quote:

UNLESS the balancer mark was off, you basicly changed nothing

Quote:

Well, after doing some research and listening to your suggestions, I decided to check out the timing. So, I did the following:

I put the #1 to TDC by rotating the engine until the comp stroke and aligned on the balancer to exact TDC. I confirmed it was at TDC by removing the valve covers and noticed the intake/exhaust rockers were loose.

Pulled out the distributor and saw something interesting. The gear drive was not exactly in line with the camshaft. It was off one tooth. I put it in line with the camshaft, made absolute the rotor was pointing to #1 and put back together.

I then put a mark on the balancer per the previous recommendation, and used that to set timing.

After doing all this, I did notice the car ran considerably smoother and had a lot of power. No pinging or anything. I was hoping it would run cooler, which it did stay under 200 while having it running in the garage for about 15 minutes. Tomorrow I'm taking it out for my morning commute to see how it holds up.

I didn't put the thermostat back in yet, but I don't think this will have anything to do while it's running at/above operating temp, right? I'm putting it back in tomorrow anyway since I didn't notice any difference with it out or in....

That's what I was thinking,

Posted By: stumpy

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 07/08/09 03:43 PM

He probably reset the timing which corrected the trouble.

Posted By: kz5rt2

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 08/14/09 06:48 PM

Has this cooling issue been resolved? Also, does if a block is bored out 0.060" does this mean it's impossible to cool with a stock setup (including all the goodies).

Posted By: imfixinmopars426

Re: 440 Runs hot/overheats. Need help!!!!!!!!! - 08/14/09 07:04 PM

"correct" timing+shroud+t-stat.