Posted By: mc4406
1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 12:41 AM
Is there a difference between the HP and the HP2??
Thanks
Thanks
1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ??
Posted By: 05dakota
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 12:44 AM
shift built on
Posted By: stumpy
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 12:45 AM
Posted By: mc4406
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 12:46 AM
Thats what i've heard before, But someone told me the other day, They thought HP2 went into 6 pack cars and HP where 440-4 cars
Posted By: 05dakota
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 12:49 AM
wrong
Posted By: mc4406
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 12:51 AM
Thanks For the info
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 01:34 AM
Quote:
Thats what i've heard before, But someone told me the other day, They thought HP2 went into 6 pack cars and HP where 440-4 cars
... WRONG ...
Posted By: formula_s
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 01:39 AM
Quote:
Is there a difference between the HP and the HP2??
Thanks
Yes ,big difference; those HP2 blocks have a high nickel content and four bolt mains!!!.
Oh never mind thats ford and gm stuff.
Posted By: Fabman
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 02:00 AM
Quote:Quote:
Is there a difference between the HP and the HP2??
Thanks
Yes ,big difference; those HP2 blocks have a high nickel content and four bolt mains!!!.
Oh never mind thats ford and gm stuff.
did they ever build a 4 bolt main block 440?
Posted By: dizuster
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 02:03 AM
Yeah it's a small bore version called a Hemi.
Posted By: bschargerse
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 02:36 AM
Quote:
did they ever build a 4 bolt main block 440?
Aren't the new 440 engines in the Mopar Performance catalog cross bolted mains? They look it from the pics.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 04:33 AM
Quote:
Quote:
did they ever build a 4 bolt main block 440?
Aren't the new 440 engines in the Mopar Performance catalog cross bolted mains? They look it from the pics.
why yes they are , i have one
Posted By: cyphre666
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 02:34 PM
The 500 wedges are 4 bolt mains
Posted By: VCODE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 04:48 PM
So the only difference between the HP and HP2 is the shift it was built on.
How do you tell if it was a 440-4 or a 440-6pac engine. Was there a stamp or number on the block.
I know the v in the Vin is for six pack engine.
Also what does a B stamped on the pad mean.
Thanks Bob
How do you tell if it was a 440-4 or a 440-6pac engine. Was there a stamp or number on the block.
I know the v in the Vin is for six pack engine.
Also what does a B stamped on the pad mean.
Thanks Bob
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 04:55 PM
Wanna know what my 1970 dodge 440 SIXPACK block says on the "dist pad area".?
Posted By: 05dakota
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:00 PM
hp2 is block built on the day shift, all hp2 blocks are not six pack blocks.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:07 PM
I am not so sure about that dak man mine says HP then space then 2 then next line says F440 then the diamond which I believe is the pressure test stamping. Every article I have ever read by the "experts" states something new or supercedes something else.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:17 PM
Do you dudes remember the old MuscleCar Review Magazine? There was an excellent article by roger gibson on correctly detailing the 440sixpack/6bbl engine I think it was the fall 97 issue. It states all 440-4 barrel was h.p. only all sixpacks were H.P.2 only however this has been debuked countless times since then!!
Posted By: john55
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:34 PM
Quote:
So the only difference between the HP and HP2 is the shift it was built on.
How do you tell if it was a 440-4 or a 440-6pac engine. Was there a stamp or number on the block.
IIRC the 440 6 bbl had a different piston than the 440 magnum, pretty hard to tell if a block was a 6bbl if you couldn't see the pistons, or have the partial vin on the r/s of block and you knew for sure the vin was for a 6 bbl car......just my opinion,you don't have to agree or disagree......
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:38 PM
Quote:
Do you dudes remember the old MuscleCar Review Magazine? There was an excellent article by roger gibson on correctly detailing the 440sixpack/6bbl engine I think it was the fall 97 issue. It states all 440-4 barrel was h.p. only all sixpacks were H.P.2 only however this has been debuked countless times since then!!
thats why many think it because, roger gibson said so .
its has been proven FALSE ...
the only way to tell an original 6pk shortblock is to find an unmolested block , it MUST have these 2 items , first is pistons with 4 valve reliefs , second is a cam that takes a 3 bolt timing gear , it MUST HAVE BOTH
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:40 PM
Quote:
The 500 wedges are 4 bolt mains
but 500 wedges are built in NEW MEGABLOCKS ....
Posted By: john55
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:40 PM
Quote:
, second is a cam that takes a 3 bolt timing gear , it MUST HAVE BOTH
......forgot that one
Posted By: VCODE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:41 PM
Now I am more mixed up. I hear something about a 6 stamped on the block itself down below pad. Is this true
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:42 PM
Quote:
Now I am more mixed up. I hear something about a 6 stamped on the block itself down below pad. Is this true
NO .... there is alot of MISINFORMATION that has been spread around over the years ...
Posted By: InViolent
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:44 PM
...And it must have the correct balancer and rods to boot, right?
Posted By: AZ_A12_BEE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:45 PM
Quote:
the only way to tell an original 6pk shortblock is to find an unmolested block , it MUST have these 2 items , first is pistons with 4 valve reliefs , second is a cam that takes a 3 bolt timing gear , it MUST HAVE BOTH
third way to tell is is you can match the #s stamped on the block to a KNOWN SIX PACK CAR VIN
My original 69 440-6 block is stamped HP not HP2
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:46 PM
Quote:
...And it must have the correct balancer and rods to boot, right?
thats a given since BOTH the 440-4 and the 6 pk have the same rods and balancer .
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:47 PM
Quote:
Now I am more mixed up. I hear something about a 6 stamped on the block itself down below pad. Is this true
No it's not true. Don't be mixed up. Like John said there are NO MARKINGS to determine it's a 440-6 except if you can match the partial VIN to a V-code VIN car. You can tell by the pistons and cam, but what are the odds that it still has the original pistons and cam after 36 years?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:48 PM
Quote:Quote:
Now I am more mixed up. I hear something about a 6 stamped on the block itself down below pad. Is this true
No it's not true. Don't be mixed up. Like John said there are NO MARKINGS to determine it's a 440-6 except if you can match the partial VIN to a V-code VIN car. You can tell by the pistons and cam, but what are the odds that it still has the original pistons and cam after 36 years?
exactly , thats why the myth is still thriving , spread by those looking to make a buck
Posted By: AZ_A12_BEE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 05:51 PM
I fixed it for you
Quote:
No it's not true. Don't be mixed up. Like John said there are NO MARKINGS to determine it's a 440-6 except if you can match the partial VIN to a V-code VIN car OR 69 M CODE A12 CAR. You can tell by the pistons and cam, but what are the odds that it still has the original pistons and cam after 36 years?
Posted By: U_Code_Cuda
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:16 PM
My 1970 U-code Cuda is stamped HP2 and is original #'s motor(partial vin on motor). Car has a harmonic balancer that resembles a cast crank. All 440-4 and 440-6 used the heavy six pack rods and in turn used a externally balanced crank....
Posted By: AndyF
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:23 PM
I have an old block that is stamped HP2. I think it is a 1968 383 if I recall correctly. That was how I finally figured out that the HP2 stuff was mostly just mis-information spread around by guys trying to scalp a few extra bucks.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:26 PM
Quote:Quote:
...And it must have the correct balancer and rods to boot, right?
thats a given since BOTH the 440-4 and the 6 pk have the same rods and balancer .
........which means you can't use the rods and balancer to determine if a motor is a 6-Pack or not. All HP motors used "6-Pack" rods and balancers (which make you wonder why the heck they called them "6-Pack" rods).
Dave
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:31 PM
Quote:
I fixed it for you
Quote:
No it's not true. Don't be mixed up. Like John said there are NO MARKINGS to determine it's a 440-6 except if you can match the partial VIN to a V-code VIN car OR 69 M CODE A12 CAR. You can tell by the pistons and cam, but what are the odds that it still has the original pistons and cam after 36 years?
Thanks Dave!!
No offence was intended to my A-12 brothers!!! Dave
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:34 PM
Quote:
I have an old block that is stamped HP2. I think it is a 1968 383 if I recall correctly. That was how I finally figured out that the HP2 stuff was mostly just mis-information spread around by guys trying to scalp a few extra bucks.
Exactly!
If I see one more supposed "440-6 Pack block" (with no real proof) on E-Bay, I'm gonna 
Dave
Posted By: VCODE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:34 PM
So what does the B stamped on the top of my pad mean
Thanks Guys for all the help
Thanks Guys for all the help
Posted By: 68LAR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:39 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, the "B" indicates the year of the engine.
Posted By: VCODE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:42 PM
I am sorry, I should have said that it is a 70
stamped F440 with the HP and 11 111
and a B
Thanks again
stamped F440 with the HP and 11 111
and a B
Thanks again
Posted By: 68LAR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:43 PM
I don't know what that means.
Posted By: InViolent
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:44 PM
Quote:
My 1970 U-code Cuda is stamped HP2 and is original #'s motor(partial vin on motor). Car has a harmonic balancer that resembles a cast crank. All 440-4 and 440-6 used the heavy six pack rods and in turn used a externally balanced crank....
Now wait a minute! I thought 70-71 only did the 440-4V HP use the same balancer as the 440+6. In 69, wasn't the 440+6 the only engine to use this configuaration? Did the Forged crank 440's in 72-74 use the same balancer?
I guess another wat to put it..."When did the 440-4 and 440+6 share the same rod/balancer part number?"
And finally...how can I identify a "Six-Pack" Rod?
Thanks
Posted By: AZ_A12_BEE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:47 PM
Quote:
So what does the B stamped on the top of my pad mean
Im not sure what B means, mine has an upside down B on it, service manual only lists an A which means .20 over pistons
Posted By: VCODE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:51 PM
Yes, That's like mine a sideways B
Posted By: AZ_A12_BEE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 06:51 PM
Quote:
I guess another wat to put it..."When did the 440-4 and 440+6 share the same rod/balancer part number?"
all years, 69 did not use a rod/ballancer any different than the 69 440 4V, but the 69 did not use the larger rods that the later years did, thats why the 69 package was faster, lighter rods spun faster
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 07:16 PM
Quote:
Quote:
My 1970 U-code Cuda is stamped HP2 and is original #'s motor(partial vin on motor). Car has a harmonic balancer that resembles a cast crank. All 440-4 and 440-6 used the heavy six pack rods and in turn used a externally balanced crank....
Now wait a minute! I thought 70-71 only did the 440-4V HP use the same balancer as the 440+6. In 69, wasn't the 440+6 the only engine to use this configuaration? Did the Forged crank 440's in 72-74 use the same balancer?
I guess another wat to put it..."When did the 440-4 and 440+6 share the same rod/balancer part number?"
And finally...how can I identify a "Six-Pack" Rod?
Thanks
Answer: Always. The reason is that 69.5 6-Pack cars didn't use "6-Pack" rods, either! They used LY rods IIRC.
6 pack rods are 920 grams vs. 860 grams for the LY's. I believe the 6-Pack rods are part number 2950906.
Dave
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 07:17 PM
Quote:
Yes, That's like mine a sideways B
something on the block is oversize to fix a mess up during machining operation , has nothing to do with identifying if its a 6pk block or not .
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 07:19 PM
Dang. Beat me to it. That's what happens when I post at work! Darn customers interrupting me in the middle of a post! 
Dave
Dave
Posted By: AZ_A12_BEE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 07:19 PM
Quote:
something on the block is oversize to fix a mess up buring machining operation
Correct, but I wonder why the sevice manual doesnt list a B only an A
Posted By: InViolent
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 07:21 PM
Thanks for the info. I feel smarter now for some reason 
But I want to clarify....After 71, did all forged crank 440's use the heavy rods and external balancer?
But I want to clarify....After 71, did all forged crank 440's use the heavy rods and external balancer?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 07:23 PM
Quote:
Thanks for the info. I feel smarter now for some reason
But I want to clarify....After 71, did all forged crank 440's use the heavy rods and external balancer?
all 440 hps did up into 73 , maybe 74 ?
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 08:11 PM
Quote:
Thanks for the info. I feel smarter now for some reason
But I want to clarify....After 71, did all forged crank 440's use the heavy rods and external balancer?
Yes, but '70 to '75 (all HP and trucks), not '71 and up.
Dave
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 08:17 PM
Quote:Quote:
Yes, That's like mine a sideways B
something on the block is oversize to fix a mess up during machining operation , has nothing to do with identifying if its a 6pk block or not .
a B means the crank was turned .010 undersized on both the mains and the rods by the factory
Posted By: Quikshft
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 08:24 PM
Quote:
........which means you can't use the rods and balancer to determine if a motor is a 6-Pack or not. All HP motors used "6-Pack" rods and balancers (which make you wonder why the heck they called them "6-Pack" rods).
Dave
I've wondered that myself more times than I have fingers to count on.
Posted By: tampabucs1
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 08:26 PM
damper was different on 72 up....lighter low compression pistons...damper looks like early damper ....I have two original complete 73 hp 440 =forged crank , big rod ,low comp. pistons ,standard damper .. from 73 Road Runner and 73 Charger
Posted By: RobX4406
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 08:31 PM
My 70 6 pack GTX and Bee both original engines had HP stamps, no HP2.
My 70 U code GTX was an HP2.
My 70 U code GTX was an HP2.
Posted By: AZ_A12_BEE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 08:32 PM
Quote:
damper was different on 72 up....lighter low compression pistons...damper looks like early damper
that would explain the smaller balancer on this 72 440 HP that I have, its never been apart that I know of, other that the parts I robbed of it and I have had it for almost 25 years
Posted By: tampabucs1
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 08:32 PM
my factory service manual says...
maltese cross and X = .010 under crank
with M-10 =all mains under .010
R-10 = all rods under .010 ????????????
maltese cross and X = .010 under crank
with M-10 =all mains under .010
R-10 = all rods under .010 ????????????
Posted By: InViolent
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 08:43 PM
Please Tech Archive this thread after it's said and done!
Posted By: 440beep
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 09:22 PM
hi the 70-71hp or hp2 440 6bbl 0r 4bbl are externally balanced . That's why on an automatic car there are weights on the torque converter and on a 4speed car it has a 10.5 inch flywheel with holes drilled in it.
In '72-'75 the hp motors are neutrally balanced-they don't have any external balancing systems. Which is why it has a thin balancer on it.
In '72-'75 the hp motors are neutrally balanced-they don't have any external balancing systems. Which is why it has a thin balancer on it.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 10:03 PM
Quote:
damper was different on 72 up....lighter low compression pistons...damper looks like early damper ....I have two original complete 73 hp 440 =forged crank , big rod ,low comp. pistons ,standard damper .. from 73 Road Runner and 73 Charger
Good info. I've been spending my time researching 6-Packs only, sorry for the error.
So then it would seem that;
- '69 1/2 440-6 = LY rods, internally balanced
- '70-'71 440-6's AND HP 440's = 6 pack rods and externally balanced
- '72-'75 440 HP = 6 pack rods, internally balanced.
Dave
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 10:05 PM
Quote:
Please Tech Archive this thread after it's said and done!
That might save having this discussion everytime someone advertises a 440-6 block for sale!
Dave
Posted By: AZ_A12_BEE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 10:07 PM
Quote:
That might save having this discussion everytime someone advertises a 440-6 block for sale!
dont you mean an HP2 block?
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 11:04 PM
Quote:
Quote:
That might save having this discussion everytime someone advertises a 440-6 block for sale!
dont you mean an HP2 block?
Yeah, sorry!
Dave
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 11:06 PM
Forging number on the "six pack rods" ends in 908.
R
R
Posted By: mc4406
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/26/06 11:06 PM
Wow, Thanks again for all the info. The motor i have is supposed to have came from a 70 Bird (that's what they all say) But i was on ebay the other day and the 70 six pack Bee #'s matching motor vin was 0A160712 and mine is 0A160703 so who knows.
Thanks
Thanks
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/27/06 01:17 AM
Quote:
Forging number on the "six pack rods" ends in 908.
R
Yep, casting # ends in 908 and part # ends in 906.
Dave
Posted By: VCODE
Re: 1970 440 HP Vs HP2 ?? - 01/29/06 01:16 AM
Thanks For all the Great Info