Moparts
383 problems.
Hi guy's, Well this isn't the first time I have posted thread on my 383 running bad. Let me refresh your memory. Had engine back from being rebuilt about a month ago. I have taken my superbee out twice for 25 min. highway run at 60 mph. My problem is when I start out the engine is idling at 850, when I get about 12 or more miles down the road then the enging starts hitting the 195-200 degree range. If I come up to a light I notice it is running now about 950. And when I get back home I am close to well, last night in 82 degree temp. it was at 980 and about 202-205.The first time was about 1 -2 weeks ago, I have since then bought a new 650 AVS, fixed my timing to idle at approx. 28 degrees advanced and 35 full advance in at 2800 rpm's. My cam is the compcams xtreme energy 268. .477 intake/ .480 exhaust and at .05 duration is .224 -.230.
my vacuum at idle is roughly 9-11 inches, I am not
too sure what it is reading after the highway run I seem to want to shut it down as soon as I pull in the garage.Please help!!
Posted By: stumpy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/18/09 03:04 PM
Too much timing too early. Try backing it down to 15* at idle with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged and see how it runs. You should be at 36* all in at 3600. not 2800.
Posted By: SomeCarGuy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/18/09 03:15 PM
I went from 10 to 12 on my 383 and it caused exactly what you are seeing on yours. I'm putting it back at 10 since it doesn't seem to run any better and I hate how it hangs up in advance now.
I was surprised that this little timing caused it to happen.
been there done that. Have you changed to lighter springs or anything like that? I ask only because you said you were total advance by 2800,not 3600. You usually dont run v.advance when you come into total that early(2800),and you usually have gone to atleast 1 lighter spring,to bring it all in that quickly. I would do what Stumpy suggets,then bump it up 2* at a time and see what she does.
Good luck,keep us posted!
Posted By: ireland383
Re: 383 problems. - 06/18/09 05:00 PM
My motor has been finished for about a month as well and runs about 205 which is not unheard of especially on a rebuilt motor. I agree timing should be set first. Good luck!
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: 383 problems. - 06/18/09 10:12 PM
That dizzy is WAY off. You need to get it curved correctly before changing anything else. Bad timing masks EVERYTHING.
16 to 19 inital
34 to 36 total
all in by 2600 RPM
205 on the road is not hot either. I would be worried if it hits 220 and keeps going. what thermostat is in there? Stock was ussually 195 which is too hot for my tastes. I prefer the 180 or the 160 in some cases.
Posted By: stumpy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/18/09 10:53 PM
16 to 19 inital
34 to 36 total
all in by 2600 RPM
You did mean 3600 didn't you. 2600 is way too early to be all in.
Hold up,I thought,for arguements sake that a good guide line for street/performance was all in by 2800(no vacuum adv.),and that a stock set up was roughly 32-3600(with v.adv).
Initial and total being pretty much the same.
Posted By: stumpy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/19/09 02:48 AM
Most go for 36* at 3600 for allround performance. At least that seems to be the general concensis on this board.
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: 383 problems. - 06/19/09 04:04 AM
Quote:
Most go for 36* at 3600 for allround performance. At least that seems to be the general concensis on this board.
That's true since this is a stockish build. 3600 would be more tame. I tend to lean towards 2800 to 3200 to be honest. My dizzy is set up around 2800 or so.
Either way 28 initial is WAY too much and needs to be addressed here.
Posted By: superbeedave
Re: 383 problems. - 06/19/09 04:12 AM
Guy's I appreciate all info. Let me fill everybody in on what's installed and exactly what I have done the past 3 weeks. You all know what cam is in it, Xtreme268.I went with the package that compcams recommends for this cam. matching valve springs and lifters. KB400 pistons, .03 over, stock 906 heads with 3 angle valve job. Mopar dual plane intake and electronic ignition. 2 weeks ago I was able to get my initial timing at 14 degrees at idle and 35 at approx. 2800 rpm's. I always thought that all advance should be in by 2800, isn't 3600 a little high? Well like I said when I took it out for a 60 mph 25 min. drive on the highway halfway down I turned around off exit and noticed how much faster it was idling and the temp had gone up from when I started out. When I got home and pulled it into the garage it was running around 1000, that is when I started out at about 925-950 idling with no vacuum advance hooked up then. Sorry guy's but I have done just about everything that you all recomended. Then I played a little more with dist. springs and I ended up at one time with all 35 in at idle and it was idling a lot better but I was told that it really should not all be in at idle so I reworked it again and with little springs I have it came in at 28 at idle and there is one spring that I end up with 10 degrees at idle and it was way too sluggish.I had a carter 625 that I changed rods, springs and jets and it never really worked. Now I have the AVS 650. My engine builder dialed in the cam and installed it straight up which compcams recommends due to all there cams are machined with 4 degrees advanced in them. Do you think I could just go ahead and drop in the dist. spring that would put me at 10-11 degrees advance at idle at unhook advance and go for the same drive to see if changes anything?
I was always under the impreesion that for street driven cars that you must leave the advance hooked up just for good drivability and mileage. Does it also help keep engine cooler? I probable don't have but 100 miles on engine since it was rebuilt, could it still be really tight and causing alot of friction/heat because of that. Guy's, I am really in foreign terretory with! Has anyone ever had a phenolic 1/2" spacer that was out of flat up to about .005? I have one and I just took it off today and left it off.
Posted By: SomeCarGuy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/19/09 05:20 AM
Are you CERTAIN that the balancer mark and the tab on the cover are correct?
I'm shocked you got that thing to fire up at 35 degree or whatever
Posted By: willard
Re: 383 problems. - 06/19/09 12:13 PM
Well I also have a 383 that likes extremely advanced timing. After converter, carb, distributor, spark plugs+wires swap, compression check, cam swap to lunati 60302 and many posts at cc.com A fellow member diagnosed low static compression. I got 120-140 psi (not bad according to FSM) and no leaks, but the car is slower than it should be with stock 383.
Setting even 20 btdc of initial and 24 of mech advance does not lead to pinging! I drive it with 18 iniial and 24 mechanical and have to live with it, at 10 btdc of initial it was running unevenly and at 0 btdc almost died.
So are you sure about the compression of the rebuilt motor? You used dome pistons so it depends on chamber cc. Did you zero deck the block?
Posted By: superbeedave
Re: 383 problems. - 06/19/09 01:55 PM
Yes, I am pretty sure balancer marks are dead on.
The guy that built the engine is a pretty smart guy when it comes to rebuilding engines. It is the same balancer and crank. It is aftermarket stock replacement timing cover and the tab is seperate so he was the one that reminded me that he had to bring up TDC before bolting down the tab and cover bolts. And as far as the zero deck goes. The stocks pistons that came out were at zero deck and they have a 1.927 compression height where these KB's are at 1.913 I do believe so that makes the flat part of the pistons down in the bore approx. .014 which isn't too bad. I still have not heard any pinging at all out of the engine I think it is due to the fact that I still have not allowed my mech. timing to go past 35 degrees. I do have the Crane adjustable rockers on that I think are too loose. Not 100 percent sure on adjusting these but I have gotten some good information off these forums to put me close. I had the stock rockers on but was informed to replace them due to the cam and springs I am using and they recommend not using the stock rockers. I know that would upset vacuum if they wen't adjusted properly but not that much!I replaced the intake valley pan gasket a couple of weeks ago just in case I had a vacuum leak their. I just can;t beleive that this cam could be causing all my problems. Should I have bought a carb. that was good up to .224/.230 duration?
I can't help but to think maybe I should have gotten a Holley and or maybe stuck with the Edelbrock 750 I had for a few days and decided to take back. That was when I was still trying to get the timing right so it would idle and accelerate. The AVS650 I have I asked the Edelbrock tech guy over and over if the 650 which is only rated up to .220 at .05 cam duration and he said yes. I am going to take it out for another trip down highway then if it still is behaving the same way throw the vacuum gauge and timing light on it to see if anything has changed that would be causing it to idle faster that when I stared out. Thanks again guy's for particapating in my nighmare!!!
Posted By: ireland383
Re: 383 problems. - 06/19/09 02:02 PM
This might be a silly ? but is your car fully warmed up when you set the timing?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 383 problems. - 06/19/09 02:55 PM
Quote:
I got 120-140 psi (not bad according to FSM) and no leaks, but the car is slower than it should be with stock 383.
If you only have 120-140 cranking pressure you have a problem.
Posted By: superbeedave
Re: 383 problems. - 06/19/09 07:57 PM
Okay guy's update. I took her out for a 20 min. drive down the highway this morning in 82 degree temp. I got off the exit about 7 miles down at the temp of engine was around 195. I came to a stop light and it was idling at 855 and I left the house at 850, so the problem I had before wasn't their at that time. I got back home and put the timing light on and vacuum gauge and everything was at or near what it was when I took off. Idle speed was about 835 and that was about the time I would have been seeing around 925-950
at idle. Here is what I did this morning before going out. I unplugged the vacuum advance and kept the timing at 28 basic and 35 full. Then remember that phenolic 1/2 4 hole spacer I mentioned earlier well, I took it off and left it off for the first time since I had the engine back together. What I did last night was I took the carb. off and just bolted down the spacer with gasket and stuck a .002 feeler gage in at various places. One place or one corner it slid in pretty far, came close to the bore. And this spacer was bolted down tight. I could have found the problem whether it was the spacer or maybe the advance mechanism hanging up inside the dist.
It is idling a little rough but I think I can live with this. I am pretty sure the cam is causing that! I guess I real try and get down the basic timing to around 18-20. Does anyone know where I could pick up distributor springs. Any speed shops carry them? Do I just need Chrysler springs. Has anyone used (gulp)! Chevy. springs? Talk later!
Posted By: stumpy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/19/09 08:06 PM
Summit and Jegs carriy the spring kits and I know O'Reilly's does also. BTW it works a lot better if you do one thing at a time and test. Otherwise you won't be sure what actually worked.
Posted By: superbeedave
Re: 383 problems. - 06/20/09 01:10 PM
Yeh, I have a problem with that sometimes. I will change two things at once to fix a problem and if the problem is gone I don't know which change fixed it.
Quote:
Quote:
I got 120-140 psi (not bad according to FSM) and no leaks, but the car is slower than it should be with stock 383.
If you only have 120-140 cranking pressure you have a problem.
Should that not be around atleast 180-190lbs in each cylinder? I used to get 190lbs out of stock 400's.
Posted By: superbeedave
Re: 383 problems. - 06/20/09 07:26 PM
I went to Oreily's to order the Mr. Gasket spring kit (racing only) and I can't beleive how much cheaper everybody else is with the their advance springs than the mopar performance kit of 2 are. There are 3 pairs in the Mr. Gasket and they are only $6.00. Mopar's kit of 2 are 10.00 - 16.00.
If you buy from Year One they are 16.00. I haven't
bought anything from year one in about 5 years. They are way over priced. Can anyone give me some ideas on trying to remove 10-15 degrees of heat out of my engine without going to an aluminum radiator. I have a 3 row 26 inch I bought from year one 5 years ago. I think that was the last thing I bought from them! I do have a shroud but I don't have a vicious fan. How about an Edelbrock water pump? Or an aluminum housing from 440 source. Anyone buy anything from 440 Source before? If so how is the quality of their parts?
Posted By: stumpy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/20/09 08:03 PM
Back the timing off a couple of degrees at a time. Advanced timing will cause higher engine temps.
Posted By: SomeCarGuy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/20/09 08:05 PM
I don't think you will get the temp down until you get the timing straight
What fan are you using now?
What stat? Is it a high flow?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 383 problems. - 06/20/09 08:08 PM
I have that cam in a 440 with a single plane intake and at 700 rpm idle it holds 14 inches of Hg. Your numbers seem low, meaning more initial timing is in order. The timing is jacked up too. The vacuum advance is limited to only 9 or 10 degrees advance, from manifold vacuum (not ported). My base timing is 20 initial and 33 total all in by 2100. This means that at idle, it has 30 degrees of advance. Also check out automotiveu.com.
Posted By: superbeedave
Re: 383 problems. - 06/21/09 10:20 PM
The fan I have now is the stock 7 blade 18 inch and I am running the Mr. Gasket 160 degree thermastat. I have been running a 160 for probably 9 years now. Prior to the rebuild it never got past 190. I have read where some say it's best to run the 180 and some say 160 doesn't hurt anything. I will fix the timing later this week and see how it does at after that. I know I should try to get about 18-20 degrees at idle and 33-35 full advance. That is so far the plan. Joe M, what kind of dist. and advance springs are you running to get those numbers?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 383 problems. - 06/22/09 01:50 AM
The distributor is an old mopar one. The big slotted spring was removed. Kept the other spring. Shortened the mech adv slots.
A 180 stat is really more suited for a street car. Better FE and emissions. The 160 at this point is doing nothing.
You may find that more timing is needed at idle and less at cruising speed.
Try hooking up a manifold vacuum gauge and advancing the base timing at idle for highest vacuum. I got to belive that with the xe268 and a dual plane intk, that 15 inHg is achieveable. And somewhere around 19 to 24 degrees for base timing. Then adjust the distributor so total mechanical is 34 to 35. To achieve the high amount of base timing, try using the vacuum advance connected from manifold vacuum.
Once the idle timing is good (the motor will cool down), adjust the idle mixture screws for best vacuum. if backing out the screws does not over richen the mixture (you will know if over rich because the vacuum will drop), then open up the idle jet by about 2 thou (drill out). Not sure what carb your using. So, I have no advice for modifying the carb.
Next thing to do, with veh in park, slowly increase the engine speed form idle (in about 100 rpm increments) to about 2500 rpm. If there is no sputtering, then you are good to go. If the engine skips or won't rev up smoothly, then it has too much timing and may be lean, especially if the exhasut manifolds get red hot. The vacuum advace may be adding 18 degrees, but with your quicker mech advance, 18 may be too much. the vacuum advance may need to be reduced to supply 10. Reduce the timing and try the rpm sweep again. You can move the distributor on the car before taking it out to modify anything. A good timing light (dial back) is also needed. If you think the timing is right, but still gets hot at cruise, then more fuel may be needed. Hope you had a chance to read some of the articles from automotiveu.com
Posted By: SomeCarGuy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/22/09 05:04 AM
We had a member recently that posted he had a hot running 440 that cooled down by running higher octane gas, after throwing the book at it with every tip we could come up with on here.
Posted By: superbeedave
Re: 383 problems. - 06/22/09 05:36 PM
I checked out that web site and man there is alot of information there! I am running the 650AVS carb. I beleive this carb. setup is a little lean due to the fact that I used to have a carter 625 with main jets that were .005 bigger. Man with all this information on tuning dist., and carb. it feels like I am in a maze and can't find the exit! I just don't have the experience for this. I used to be just a stock running engine guy before and never really worried about all this tuning! If anyone out there that can help me and lives in the Cincinnati area and can come help me with this tuning stuff please let me know!
Posted By: SomeCarGuy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/22/09 06:59 PM
With these strange tuning quirks and low cranking comp, I think this points to the cam being off.
What did it degree in at?
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: 383 problems. - 06/22/09 07:24 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I got 120-140 psi (not bad according to FSM) and no leaks, but the car is slower than it should be with stock 383.
If you only have 120-140 cranking pressure you have a problem.
Should that not be around atleast 180-190lbs in each cylinder? I used to get 190lbs out of stock 400's.
If the stock or near stock compression pistons were kept it place and that higher lift and more aggressive duration cam were used, cylinder pressure will be somewhat diminished, which would read with lower compression readings, although not necessarily 120 psi low. Maybe 20-30 psi lower than stock.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 383 problems. - 06/22/09 09:16 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I got 120-140 psi (not bad according to FSM) and no leaks, but the car is slower than it should be with stock 383.
If you only have 120-140 cranking pressure you have a problem.
Should that not be around atleast 180-190lbs in each cylinder? I used to get 190lbs out of stock 400's.
If the stock or near stock compression pistons were kept it place and that higher lift and more aggressive duration cam were used, cylinder pressure will be somewhat diminished, which would read with lower compression readings, although not necessarily 120 psi low. Maybe 20-30 psi lower than stock.
The duration on the Lunati cam he used is 220/226 @ .050." That's hardly what you'd call a big cam. If his pistons are zero decked, I still say he's got an issue. Now, if the pistons are .060"-.080" in the hole... 
ETA: I calc'd his combo through an engine program and came up with a theoretical static CR of 7.5 (give or take) to yield a cranking pressure of 132 psi.
The same combo with a static CR of 10.1 yields a 191 cranking pressure and 9.25 dynamic CR. Much, much better...
Posted By: GreenBlurr
Re: 383 problems. - 06/23/09 02:19 AM
Yet another example of why even reading the question and answer forum makes my blood boil.
The main problem is a simple one. The fact that his timing was set a bit aggressive, and that he has a 160 degree thermostat and that the engine is undercarbed merely just aggravated it a little.
The engine has a MANIFOLD VACUUM LEAK. Plane and simple. You guys should have picked up on that in that the idle is inconsistent, and increases the more he drives and the engine is run longer while being so lean and the chambers get hotter and angrier, and also for the fact that he had the base timing pretty well up there, yet the vacuum was only 11 inches.
That lift and duration of camshaft in a split pattern with that compression should pull at least 15-16 inches of vacuum, and that would be with not too terribly much timing and the idle set lean (i.e. a bit of a worst case scenario for idle conditions).
Those who replied to the post before me must be the same group that called me stupid for mentioning a vacuum guage as the thing to have if someone were to get only one tool period for timing and tuning a carbuerated engine.
The original poster even expressed a concern about his phenolic spacer possibly not having a uniform sealing surface, and you guys didnt pay attention.
Ok, so original poster: I would like to offer you some actual help here. Get rid of that phenolic spacer, or buy a new one if you are unsure about it.
Remove and reseal the intake using ultra black RTV on every bit of sealing surface all around the bottom side of the valley pan gasket, and around every bit of port sealing surface on the top side of it. Also put RTV on the threads of all of your intake bolts, and torque the bolts properly at 35 ft lbs or there abouts. THEN you may retime your engine, and THEN you may redo the fuel mixture, and THEN check the manifold vacuum with a vacuum gauge and if it is still low and incosistent, ckeck anythign else that may be privy to said vacuum; whether it be the vacuum Tee on the intake, brake booster, nippled off ports on the intake or carb, PCV valve and hose, etc.
I hope the best for ya man. Get that top end resealed. I don't care if its a new motor. If you didn't build it, then why would you believe that the intake and valley pan weren't tossed on there more or less dry, etc?
Rant off, and guys, get your heads out of the clouds of complicated custom engine runability theory.
Posted By: stumpy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/23/09 02:56 AM
I am sure all of us are so glad you're around Greenblur. How would we ever survive without your condesending know it all posts. If you want to help then try doing it without all the comments.They aren't necessary and make you sound like the south end of a north bound horse.
Posted By: GreenBlurr
Re: 383 problems. - 06/23/09 03:12 AM
Quote:
I am sure all of us are so glad you're around Greenblur. How would we ever survive without your condesending know it all posts. If you want to help then try doing it without all the comments.They aren't necessary and make you sound like the south end of a north bound horse.
You deffinitely make good points. But at least my outrageous post got your attention on top of being informative. You try reading the know it all drivel on the question and answer section for 8 years and see how you react after that.
I wanted to get the poor guy headed in the right direction before yet another person had him field strip his distributor and possibly yank his camshaft.
Posted By: stumpy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/23/09 03:22 AM
Why do you bother reading it if it upsets you so? It seems like a simple thing to end.
Posted By: GreenBlurr
Re: 383 problems. - 06/23/09 03:26 AM
Why do people look at car crashes?
Posted By: superbeedave
Re: 383 problems. - 06/23/09 04:14 AM
I was the one that originally put the intake on and like I have done to all the intake valley pans gaskets I have put on this engine prior to the rebuild I put black sealant on heads and intake before bolting down and torquing. I also after a couple of weeks thought it was the intake so I pulled it off and put new valley pan with sealant and I still had the same symptoms after that. Yes I did more or less toss the phenolic spacer when I realized that was what was causing the fluctuation in rpm's. Like I said I at one time for a couple of days had an Edelbrock 750 on it and it was pulling 13 inches of vac. at idle. I have been tinkering with engines for years but this tuning of dist. and carb. I am ignorant to!
I still think my timing is way off along with my carb. running lean which is probably what is causing most of my problems. My set of dist. springs will be in tomorrow so I will be working on that. As far as the degreeing of the cam, the guy that built my engine has been doing it for years and he set the cam straight up per compcams recommedation due to all their cams having 4 degrees advanced machined into them already. I have no vacuum tees or power brakes just good old fashion 833 4 speed. The intake is mopar perf. dual plane and about 2 years old. There was at one time about a week or two after I got the engine back that I started working on the dist. springs and I know I had it dialed in at idle 15 degrees and 35 total in at around 2400-2500. Then I guess about 2-3 weeks later I rechecked it and the timing at idle was down to 10 degrees. That must have been about the time that spacer started leaking. I think the overheating of engine and the fact that I probably took off carb. and spacer at a time when it was real hot so maybe that is when it warped on me. Like I said it is out of flat approx. .002. I will spend the next couple days working on dist. advance and timing
then I will get back.
So your idle varies a little with temp A 383 engine at 205 is NOT OVERHEATING. I really believe this is a case of a cam that a bit radical compared to stock. Either live with it or change it back to stock. On a 69 383 road runner I run the timing at 42 total with at least 15 initial or more No vacuum with stock cam exhaust and 3.55s it will run 14.3 at 97 on street tires and a high 80 day. Enjoy the car and quit worrying aboiut nothing
Posted By: SomeCarGuy
Re: 383 problems. - 06/24/09 03:41 AM
Quote:
I feel sorry for the original poster, because he's looking for help with a problem that could have been addressed and advised on properly, but unfortunately you're all idiots.
Since he did that and it didn't help, what does that make you? Somewhere beyond an idiot.
Since the cam was in fact degreed, I'm out of aces.
Conveinently, GreenBlurr is on the case, maybe he can solve the puzzle and stroke his ego. 
Posted By: superbeedave
Re: 383 problems. - 07/04/09 12:38 AM
Hey guys, I told you I would get back to you all.
I finally got the distributor dailed in with the help of a good friend. I went ahead and JB welded
the slot length. I shorten up to 19 degrees mechanical advance from 26 which the distributor already had. Now I am at 15 or 16 degrees idle and approx. 34-35 at 2400 rpm's. The advance is coming in at about 950. I originally had it with the springs I put in it coming in at about 1300 which was way too late so I changed one spring for a mopar perf. light spring. Feels real good no jerking like I had after shortening slots and putting in what appeared to be 2 medium springs. Hooked up vacuum advance and at 2500 rpm's have a total of 49 degrees advance. I also rejetted the avs650 and changed metering rods.From .095 and .068x.047 rods to .098 mains and .070x.0475.
A little more fuel on the power side I know. Idle is not what I would like, I still have a little vacuum in my port vacuum line going to the dist. but I am able to adjust the vacuum advance to not come in at idle. I also tried hooking up to manifold vacuum but when I start it cold it wants to shake some. It also ran about 10-15 degrees cooler today given that the temps really didn't get in the middle 80's. I also changed the secondary jets from .098 to .100. I know the book for these carbs. say to go up the same amount as the mains but!! It didn't run too bad at .098 before the change so I figured lets give this a try. Idle is at 750-780. Wel we will see what happens. Talk to ya all later!!
