Moparts
440 problem
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
440 problem - 05/26/09 12:14 AM
A friend of mine has a 440. It falls falt at 5500. Background, .030 over 9:1 ish (.070 in the hole pistons), OTB E-heads (84cc), Fel-Pro's, 513 VooDoo cam, TTi headers (and 2.5 X-pipe exhaust), RPM intake Demon carb. He has swaped boxes, coils, distribs, cap/rotor carbs, fuel lines, pumps, went w/ roller rockers, swaped valve springs, you name it. It just will not pull above 5500 and is laying down a ton at the top end. Could the E-heads be causing the problems? He has a set of nice 906's he might try. If you need more info it's a 69 RR 727, 175k convert and 3.55's. So far the best he can do is 13.0 @100mph falling off.
He runs thru the pipes...could that be a problem??
Any ideas?
Just out of curiousity...what are the specs on that 513VooDoo cam?
Does it fall within the same RPM range as the manifold and gearing that he has?
The 906 head has a bigger combustion chamber and would decrease his compression.
Posted By: goldmember
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 12:55 AM
If the tune is good,I'd look at a possible fuel delivery problem. Does the valvetrain make noise at say 5000 rpm? Although I've run lots of Harolds solid grinds I've seen and heard first hand that instability can be a problem with the Voodoo hyd cams. It could be basecircle runout or another cause,some work fine and others don't. You could install solid lifters as a test,I'd check for basecircle runout as well.It's not the heads causing the problem but details about the valvespring seat and open pressure is important.
Posted By: lewtot184
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 01:00 AM
if thats the 226/234-.494/.513 cam and its installed at 106 centerline, it ought to drop dead around 5500rpm.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 01:28 AM
The intake is and RPM they work from off idle to around 6500. The 906's would drop maybe but he can use steel shim head gaskets and they have been milled some. Plus they have a ton of port work and I think 2.14/1.88 valves.
Advertised Duration: 268 int./276 exh.
.494 in. / .513 in.
"Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,800-6,200
Lobe Separation (degrees): 110"
Not sure about the 106* or dropping dead at 5500. It should pull to 6200 as advertised.
I though his biggest problem would have been the 3.55's. Seems to lauch well, just falls flat and no fuel problems. get's plenty and good pressure the entire run.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 01:31 AM
Quote:
If the tune is good,I'd look at a possible fuel delivery problem. Does the valvetrain make noise at say 5000 rpm? Although I've run lots of Harolds solid grinds I've seen and heard first hand that instability can be a problem with the Voodoo hyd cams. It could be basecircle runout or another cause,some work fine and others don't. You could install solid lifters as a test,I'd check for basecircle runout as well.It's not the heads causing the problem but details about the valvespring seat and open pressure is important.
yeah he's thinking about check w/ solid lifters. I should add hes a master mechanic and has build many many many BB and SB mopars and this is racking his brain.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 01:50 AM
recent problem or since built? He has a fuel psi gauge inside the car? Will it rev to the offending point(5500)in neutral?
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 01:05 PM
yes his 1st cam was a Summit 488. thought it was the cam (although I suggested it was something else) Fuel was his 1st thought. It is not a fuel problem. 7.5lbs of pressure. Not sure about reving in "N"
Posted By: dOc !
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 01:12 PM
9 to one compression
... then with Eddy alum heads ...
...
That is an "effective" compression ratio of at or less than 8 to 1.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 01:16 PM
Quote:
7.5lbs of pressure.
I'd think that would be his idle reading & he IS showing several psi or more @5500 going down the strip when it acts up?
Posted By: feets
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 01:19 PM
E-heads and 9:1? He needs BOOST!
That's the combo I'm running under my turbos. The Speed Pro 9:1 forged pistons measure out to 8.7:1 compression.
It's a decent setup. Just add PSI.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 01:42 PM
Quote:
Quote:
7.5lbs of pressure.
I'd think that would be his idle reading & he IS showing several psi or more @5500 going down the strip when it acts up?
He's fine all the way down the track... I'm just wondering if something happening in the chamber causing some flow issues???
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 01:43 PM
Quote:
E-heads and 9:1? He needs BOOST!
That's the combo I'm running under my turbos. The Speed Pro 9:1 forged pistons measure out to 8.7:1 compression.
It's a decent setup. Just add PSI.
That's what I keep telling him.. I ran the speed pro's (cast) and 906's. car ran great w/ 6psi of boost.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 02:05 PM
If he has ~3 or 4 psi at the carb when it lays down the fuel delivery is good. describe the symptoms more, is it cutting out or just seems like it wont go any higher?. only in 3rd gear?
Posted By: dOc !
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 02:08 PM
He needs some big-time shaved closed-chambered IRON heads.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 02:10 PM
Quote:
If he has ~3 or 4 psi at the carb when it lays down the fuel delivery is good. describe the symptoms more, is it cutting out or just seems like it wont go any higher?. only in 3rd gear?
no he has to short shift 1st and 2nd. He says..."it just lays down" He has check and replaced, fuel system, electrical, valve springs and went w/ roller rockers. It has had the same issues each time. Could the heads be causing some flow problems in the chamber at 5500??? Even at 8.7:1 the thing should pull past 5500.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 02:12 PM
Quote:
He needs some big-time shaved closed-chambered IRON heads.
I think he's going w/ a set of shaved 906's and a steel shim head gasket...if that doesn't fix it I think he's going to yank it and find a new short block.
Posted By: moparmojo
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 02:19 PM
I wonder if it is a converter issue. The cam, converter, and gears all need to work together to reach full potential. Just a thought, take it as you will as I am only a parts changer.
The rocker ratio could be affecting the valvetrain stability with those agressive lobes. Is he running a 1.6 rocker ratio by chance ?
Dulcich did a series of tests a few years back using an agressive flat tappet hyd cam with a 1.6 rocker and the engine wouldn't RPM.
Dwayne @ PRH has observed the same thing during dyno testing....agressive flat tappet hyd cams and 1.6 rocker ratios nose over early ; usually several hundred rpm lower than with a 1.5 rocker.
Ron
So it acted the exact same with the summit cam? Summit cam is lower lift, 465/488 so I tend to think valvetrain stability is not the problem there but you never know. Will actually rev above 55 or just stop making power there?
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 03:56 PM
Quote:
The rocker ratio could be affecting the valvetrain stability with those agressive lobes. Is he running a 1.6 rocker ratio by chance ?
Dulcich did a series of tests a few years back using an agressive flat tappet hyd cam with a 1.6 rocker and the engine wouldn't RPM.
Dwayne @ PRH has observed the same thing during dyno testing....agressive flat tappet hyd cams and 1.6 rocker ratios nose over early ; usually several hundred rpm lower than with a 1.5 rocker.
Ron
no 1.5's had stock 1st then rollers, same issues
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 03:57 PM
Quote:
So it acted the exact same with the summit cam? Summit cam is lower lift, 465/488 so I tend to think valvetrain stability is not the problem there but you never know. Will actually rev above 55 or just stop making power there?
From the way it sounds it just doesn't go anymore.
Posted By: @#$%&*!
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 04:02 PM
Is there a rev. limiter on the car? Disable it and make pass.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 04:03 PM
what's that convertor flashing to ? I haven't seen rave reviews on the MP convertors ...
Here's a VooDoo cam thread ;
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1Steve's comments on the first page :
"I could never get the Mopar Voodoo hydraulic cams to rpm. Tried everything, big and small block, cam swap to another brand fixed it."
Ron
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 04:18 PM
Quote:
what's that convertor flashing to ? I haven't seen rave reviews on the MP convertors ...
I had one for over 3 years w/ zippy problems. Doubt it's a convert problem as they are usually a slipping problem.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 04:23 PM
Quote:
Here's a VooDoo cam thread ;
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Steve's comments on the first page :
"I could never get the Mopar Voodoo hydraulic cams to rpm. Tried everything, big and small block, cam swap to another brand fixed it."
Ron
no REV limit on the car...and he had the same problem w/ the 488 summit cam.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 04:52 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Here's a VooDoo cam thread ;
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Steve's comments on the first page :
"I could never get the Mopar Voodoo hydraulic cams to rpm. Tried everything, big and small block, cam swap to another brand fixed it."
Ron
no REV limit on the car...and he had the same problem w/ the 488 summit cam.
then it's only 1 or 3 things , the fuel system ... he changed it , the ignition system or the CONVERTOR ....
Posted By: bigblock4x4
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 04:56 PM
I have the next size bigger voodoo cam in my four wheel drive,I have the same problem.It is 9.7 to 1 and like you i can not figure out the reason it wont rev up.Ported 452 heads,3 inch exhaust,torker II intake and 800 cfm holley.Got 35" boggers, 4.10 gears,3800 convertor.but when i put in low lock it pulls like a *****!!!My buddy also thinks that it is a fuel problem.Dont have a gauge in the dash too really keep an eye on it.(I cant get nobody too ride under the hood too watch the gauge)
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 05:17 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Here's a VooDoo cam thread ;
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Steve's comments on the first page :
"I could never get the Mopar Voodoo hydraulic cams to rpm. Tried everything, big and small block, cam swap to another brand fixed it."
Ron
no REV limit on the car...and he had the same problem w/ the 488 summit cam.
then it's only 1 or 3 things , the fuel system ... he changed it , the ignition system or the CONVERTOR ....
John how is the converter going to make an engine fall flat at 5500 or any rpm? seems to me if it was bad it would fling to 6500 and not go anywhere.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 06:10 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Here's a VooDoo cam thread ;
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Steve's comments on the first page :
"I could never get the Mopar Voodoo hydraulic cams to rpm. Tried everything, big and small block, cam swap to another brand fixed it."
Ron
no REV limit on the car...and he had the same problem w/ the 488 summit cam.
then it's only 1 or 3 things , the fuel system ... he changed it , the ignition system or the CONVERTOR ....
John how is the converter going to make an engine fall flat at 5500 or any rpm? seems to me if it was bad it would fling to 6500 and not go anywhere.
ok , nevermind on the convertor , maybe he should have put a 383 in it instead ?? 
what has been done with the ignition system and has he CONFIRMED fuel pressure at WOT ???
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 06:20 PM
[
ok , nevermind on the convertor , maybe he should have put a 383 in it instead ??
what has been done with the ignition system and has he CONFIRMED fuel pressure at WOT ???
it was a 383 car...69 RR. yes ignition was swapped as well..and he put a gauge on the cowl for that reason, yes pressure is good all the way down track. Wonder if it could be an air flow problem??? Never asked if he's running it w/ a air cleaner or not.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 06:25 PM
Air cleaner , good thought , I assume he has a drop base round under the hood ? An RB with a performer RPM has little hood clearance , a drop base with a short air filter will kill air flow into the carb ...
Posted By: RemCharger
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 06:38 PM
And is it a mech pump? If so, just for laffs I'd pull out the pushrod and see if it needs some er, uh, viagra.
The last thing thats a problem is the heads. I've seen the same thing with bad ring tension. Ask your buddy if he has ever overheated it. Tell him not to be shy.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 06:42 PM
yeah I can't believe I didn't ask him about the lid...I guess because the 1st thing when I get to the track is pull the lid and filter.... and yes Mech pump... the dude is very anal about his builds, I'm sure it's a new rod....lol
Posted By: RemCharger
Re: 440 problem - 05/26/09 07:36 PM
Quote:
ok , nevermind on the convertor , maybe he should have put a 383 in it instead ??
........... 
