SURGING Six Pack carbs

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/26/14 06:28 PM

Quote:

what does it do.

It makes the motor run hotter

I like to run the 160 thermostat and jet and tune accordling for best performance

And I do not let thinking like that anywhere near my vehicles. Running a 160 degree thermostat is about the most backward thinking possible, along with 20w50 oil and blowing clouds of black smoke from a diesel.

Posted By: RobX4406

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/26/14 06:57 PM

That MP cam has 238 at .050 IIRC. IMO, No way it runs well at idle to get a baseline with only 10* initial timing. I'd roughly double that number to the 18-22 range and it will idle much better.

Timing first!

An anology I use, carbs are like building a house. You don't build the roof first then the walls then foundation, you start at the foundation and work up. Idle (timing/carb settings) is the foundation. If that's off, you have to make compromises in the systems after it to get the car to work right. Set foundation correctly and the other systems are much easier to tune.

Posted By: RobX4406

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/26/14 07:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

thermostat 195

this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....

what does it do.

The 340 6 pack intake has an issue with fuel puddling. Colder the intake, the worse the issue.

Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/26/14 07:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

thermostat 195

this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....

what does it do.

answered above! engine is hotter, fuel doesn't puddle

Posted By: ph23vo

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/26/14 08:11 PM

Quote:

I've got a set of new six pack carbs from Mopar Performance.

While driving under normal circumstances they constantly surge and surge....
I've checked for vacuum leaks and set the outboards to make sure they're shut completly, but now I'm at a loss...

Any ideas? Suggestions?

before DOING ANYTHING unplug the vacuum advance... [plug hose] and drive to see if it cures it..

Posted By: ademon

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/26/14 11:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

thermostat 195

this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....

what does it do.

answered above! engine is hotter, fuel doesn't puddle

I'm guessing this aplies to engines with blocked heat crossovers and a fresh air intake. I can't see the 195 stat needed with a engine with open crossover or sucking underhood air.

Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/26/14 11:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

thermostat 195

this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....

what does it do.

answered above! engine is hotter, fuel doesn't puddle

I'm guessing this aplies to engines with blocked heat crossovers and a fresh air intake. I can't see the 195 stat needed with a engine with open crossover or sucking underhood air.

don't know as i have both blocked crossover and fresh air....

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/27/14 01:11 AM

Here is a plug I pulled out today. I am running a 65 power valve and it had 64 jets in it, I could not find 66s so I put a set of 67 I had in it. It didn't seem to want to idle below about 1500, I began to adjust the float levels as they were high and the clear plugs broke after a few minutes of running, they were only finger tight against the o-rings. At that point I had to let it cool down in order to take the carbs back apart and get the plastic pieces out. I'll start back on it tomorrow, I have a set of 65s I will probably put in. Once I get it all back together tomorrow I will start with the timing and bump it up. What is the best way to set it by vacuum gauge or by ear. I have always been very successful by ear. I was in the process of getting it running well again so I could go through Tom's set up from start to finish.

Thanks for the info so far.

Attached picture 8156520-Plug.JPG

Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/27/14 03:13 AM

Alan,
what is the set-up of the rest of the motor? Stock cam? auto? power brakes? Does the surging or any erratic running occur at idle? In and/or out of gear? ( if auto ). What ignition are you running? Did you have six pack carbs on there before? And, if so, did they run bad? Hence, the new ones.

What I am getting at is if there's another reason for the surging, like a vacuum leak. I usually isolate the carbs as much as possible when trouble shooting. The car

Posted By: ademon

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/27/14 06:12 AM

Plug looks a bit lean with maybe a rich idle

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/27/14 12:43 PM

Quote:

Alan,
what is the set-up of the rest of the motor? Stock cam? auto? power brakes? Does the surging or any erratic running occur at idle? In and/or out of gear? ( if auto ). What ignition are you running? Did you have six pack carbs on there before? And, if so, did they run bad? Hence, the new ones.

What I am getting at is if there's another reason for the surging, like a vacuum leak. I usually isolate the carbs as much as possible when trouble shooting. The car

Troy, that was 5 years ago, I just dug up the thread with a search in hopes that he remembered what solved his issue since I was experiencing the same thing or similar anyway. My set up is above if you have any input.

Thanks

Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/27/14 01:15 PM

Kevin.
A long time ago, when I too was in Florida ( one of those rare things, a native Floridian ) my daily driver '70 440 six pack Charger R/T use to give me the same issue. For me, it wasn't the carbs, it was the ignition. When I ran the new electronic Direct Connection distributor with the vacuum advance hooked up, my timing was way too high, hence the surging. When I took the vacuum line off and just plugged off ports, it went away. I see you're running a single point. When you have the car in park, have you checked the timing mark when you have the engine running at cruising rpm's? What I'm getting at is see if your timing mark is fluctuating or if it is steady ( as it probably should ). As you have built many carbs before, they are relatively simplistic. I don't think the .484 is too much that the jets in the center carb can't feed it at cruising speeds. You are looking down into the center carb to see if the flow of fuel pouring out of the ventures is reasonable? Granted, there's no way of verifying proper flow by a visual. As you pointed out, plugs are a good indicator..

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/27/14 01:23 PM

Thank you, I have not looked at those things but will later today, it is a 4 speed and I am running a single point with an Accel conversion (pretty much like a unilite). I prefer unilites and they don't make one for a dual point.

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/27/14 02:24 PM

Quote:

Kevin.
A long time ago, when I too was in Florida ( one of those rare things, a native Floridian ) my daily driver '70 440 six pack Charger R/T use to give me the same issue. For me, it wasn't the carbs, it was the ignition. When I ran the new electronic Direct Connection distributor with the vacuum advance hooked up, my timing was way too high, hence the surging. When I took the vacuum line off and just plugged off ports, it went away. I see you're running a single point. When you have the car in park, have you checked the timing mark when you have the engine running at cruising rpm's? What I'm getting at is see if your timing mark is fluctuating or if it is steady ( as it probably should ). As you have built many carbs before, they are relatively simplistic. I don't think the .484 is too much that the jets in the center carb can't feed it at cruising speeds. You are looking down into the center carb to see if the flow of fuel pouring out of the ventures is reasonable? Granted, there's no way of verifying proper flow by a visual. As you pointed out, plugs are a good indicator..

Troy.
The engine in my bird has one of the old Direction 280/474 cams,installed in 1983.When I finished the car in 1992,went through the motor and left it in.I changed main jets to #65's and made the modifications to the end plates that were recommended in the old Direction racing manual,still has original Prestolite dual point,4spd,3.54 Dana.Can go in garage,starts on the first few revolutions,back it out and go,runs like a clock,will do 17 mpg if I don't run it hard.If everything is right,they work !

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/28/14 01:34 AM

Today I put 65H (not sure what the H is for) jets in my center and then drove it, surging is improved and overall drivibility is back.

I was talking to a friend of mine today about my timing and he looked in his Mopar Performance big and it said that they recommended as much as 50* total timing, initial, mechanical and vacuum. The reason I was discussing it with him is setting mine by a vacuum gauge it came up with 22* which had the best idle and just felt right. My concern was that it gave me 50*+ total timing, which I wasn't confortable with so I backed it down to 40* total and left it there, performance is good there but I have to run more idle than I want (4 speed car). Tomorrow I am gonna run it up to 46* total as well as make the few other adjustments to see where that gets me. Like my float levels, I got some more clear sites this afternoon so I can try that again. Maybe I can get back on track and do Tom's set up from start to finish.

Any thoughts on where I am?

Has anyone run 50* total with no ill effects on a LA engine?

Posted By: NITROUSN

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/28/14 03:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I've got a set of new six pack carbs from Mopar Performance.

While driving under normal circumstances they constantly surge and surge....
I've checked for vacuum leaks and set the outboards to make sure they're shut completly, but now I'm at a loss...

Any ideas? Suggestions?

before DOING ANYTHING unplug the vacuum advance... [plug hose] and drive to see if it cures it..

Quick and simple. I dont know whos post this is anymore.

Alan started it.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/28/14 03:50 AM

Alan did start the post 5 years ago and it immediately went dead with no answer. I had the same issue was found the thread during a search and thought a good place to start would be to ask him what he found. The rest you can read. I did unplug the vacuum advance after I rejetted to the 65s which I did when I disassembled the carbs to remove the broken clear sight glasses. I forgot to mention it in my rundown of today's efforts. Although the 65s did seem to help unplugging the advance had no effect. I think I am still restricting myself/idle with the timing issue right now so I will correct that in the morning and verify my float levels now that I have another set of sight glasses (hope they don't break). It seems like the initial required for idle plus the advance will exceed what Tom has recommended in his document, I may have to find a happy medium until I have time to pull the distributor and restrict the advance. I'm screwing around and time is getting away from me.

I am also wondering about things like I don't have the Carter fuel pump as recommended and my heat risers aren't blocked off. I also believe I have a 180* t-stat in it so I will change it out by the end of tomorrow if I don't get it where I want it and start down that road.

I know the real answer is just follow the directions and correct what ever is different than prescribed but it runs so well I am having trouble believing I have to do a major overhaul of the system to get the surge out and more importantly cure what I believe is a lean condition.

Posted By: lokalik

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 12:48 AM

in the six pack tuning post it referred to the ports in the venturis. with the engine running use your finger and block off one of the ports and see if the engine picks up rpm or drops rpm, then block the other port and check for the same rpm condition. at this time I don't recall if a increase in rpm meant rich or lean or if a drop in rpm meant rich or lean. also firecore makes a great distributor that is very easy to adj the total. my 383 really likes a lot of timing 48 to 50 total. hope this helps. if you can't find the tuning post let me know and I will try to get it to you.

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 02:21 AM

Quote:

in the six pack tuning post it referred to the ports in the venturis. with the engine running use your finger and block off one of the ports and see if the engine picks up rpm or drops rpm, then block the other port and check for the same rpm condition. at this time I don't recall if a increase in rpm meant rich or lean or if a drop in rpm meant rich or lean.

That would be the outer air bleed orifices in each venturi/port of each carb used to help tune the air/fuel mixture screws on each of the 3 carbs (basically the "poormans vacuum gauge"), basic rule of thumb to remember when doing this to help determine the air/fuel ratio is: when blocking one air bleed at a time if it "sounds mean" (idle/RPM increase) "it's lean", "if it's ragged" (decrease in idle) it's rich....so "mean/lean, ragged/rich" easy to remember

Mike

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 02:55 AM

If you are referring to the tuning post by Dayclona, I have that one as well. I returned my timing back to my base setting, I have to run more idle than I want but I have no fear of running too much total timing. I also took the scondary linkage off, disconnected the vacuum lines to the pods and blocked off the supply at the center carb today. Going on Tom's thought of get it running correctly on the center before worrying about the outbaords. I still have the surge but just minor with the outboards out of the picture, I will pull a few plugs tomorrow and see how they are liking the 65 jets. If I can get them to look right I can live with the surge that is left in the end and then I can fix my total advance so I can run more base and bring the idle down. Interesting playing with it but I really wise there was someone in my area more familiar with them than I am, few people around here even know what a carb is much less multiples.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 03:41 AM

Quote:

Kevin.
A long time ago, when I too was in Florida ( one of those rare things, a native Floridian ) my daily driver '70 440 six pack Charger R/T use to give me the same issue. For me, it wasn't the carbs, it was the ignition. When I ran the new electronic Direct Connection distributor with the vacuum advance hooked up, my timing was way too high, hence the surging. When I took the vacuum line off and just plugged off ports, it went away. I see you're running a single point. When you have the car in park, have you checked the timing mark when you have the engine running at cruising rpm's? What I'm getting at is see if your timing mark is fluctuating or if it is steady ( as it probably should ). As you have built many carbs before, they are relatively simplistic. I don't think the .484 is too much that the jets in the center carb can't feed it at cruising speeds. You are looking down into the center carb to see if the flow of fuel pouring out of the ventures is reasonable? Granted, there's no way of verifying proper flow by a visual. As you pointed out, plugs are a good indicator..

Troy, it makes no difference with the vacuum advance unplugged, actually no difference at all even in base or total timing (I checked to make sure I had good vacuum and I do) which seemed strange and the timing mark does not flucuate to any extent. I am starting to think I may have reaaly light springs in the distributor causing mechanical advance at a very low RPM making it hard to find the sweet spot to set the idle.

Does anyone know if the vacuum port for the distrutor and the secondaries are connected, meaning if I had a leak at the vacuum pods would it effect my advance? The advance port is showing good vacuum.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 04:00 AM

Are you runnig a stock 1970 340 center carb? If not, let us know the list number on the center carb. your using

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 04:23 AM

4144, listed above.

I have been doing some more reading and it seems some have had this same or similar issue from a bad ballast resistor. Seems like a cheap try to me, especially since I probably have a few sitting around.

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 05:24 AM

The 4144 is a center 440 auto,metering block has different size power valve channel restriction and main metering orifice than 340.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 12:48 PM

I know it was a 440 center but I think the blokc and the bowl are from the 340 carb. That being said what issues could that cause? Again, I have had no issues with the way it actually runs, if it hadn't been for the surge I would not have started tweaking it at all. Granted it doesn't run like a EFI vehicle but I don't expect it to, most of my cars are carberated so I am well aware of the differences.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 04:41 PM

Quote:

I know it was a 440 center but I think the blokc and the bowl are from the 340 carb. That being said what issues could that cause? Again, I have had no issues with the way it actually runs, if it hadn't been for the surge I would not have started tweaking it at all. Granted it doesn't run like a EFI vehicle but I don't expect it to, most of my cars are carberated so I am well aware of the differences.

The metering blocks need to match the carb. #

Mismatching them can drive you absolutely nuts

Take the time to look very closely at all the holes and passages in the main body and the metering block, then remove the jets and see if yours has the emulusion tubes in it like the 340 carb. metering blocks have

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 04:56 PM

Kevin I will send you a pair of jets 4 sizes larger than what is in the center carb right now. Put em in/take it for a spin/come home/take em out/holler back

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 05:56 PM

Quote:

Kevin I will send you a pair of jets 4 sizes larger than what is in the center carb right now. Put em in/take it for a spin/come home/take em out/holler back

I was at 64s when I started, went to 67s (cause I had them handy) and the surging really wasn't much improved and it seem to create other issues so I went back to 65Hs (that I had). Reading the plug picture what does that say about the jets?

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 06:19 PM

Quote:

I know it was a 440 center but I think the blokc and the bowl are from the 340 carb. That being said what issues could that cause? Again, I have had no issues with the way it actually runs, if it hadn't been for the surge I would not have started tweaking it at all. Granted it doesn't run like a EFI vehicle but I don't expect it to, most of my cars are carberated so I am well aware of the differences.

Sounds like you have a mongrel of a center carb, if your not aware of all the peculiarities between the assorted center carbs, and how simple even the wrong gasket can cause woes in the metering block, I'd suggests you either send your carbs out, or replace them with new....perhaps you have no major issues with the carbs, other than tuning them, your fooling yourself by thinking you can set up just the center, and not worry about the outboards until you've "straightened out" the center, they need to be all addressed at the same time, and even after your done, your not done, you need to go back and double check your settings/adjustments

Mike

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 07:30 PM

I'm glad you said that !!

Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 08:48 PM

Man, I guess I got lucky in the day.. My first v-code '70 Charger R/T always ran great, even as a daily driver for many many years ( that's why I'm sure ).

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 09:22 PM

Quote:

Man, I guess I got lucky in the day.. My first v-code '70 Charger R/T always ran great, even as a daily driver for many many years ( that's why I'm sure ).

Troy, a lot of luck is common sense !!

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 10:15 PM

Time out guys, you might remember the car ran extremely well, strated fine and even idled reasonably well before I started adjusting them. I built them, the engine and the car, it hadn't run in 20 years and the reason I started playing with it was that there was a slight surge at highway speeds, I don't think I am ready to scrape it or the carbs just yet. My statement about getting it to run like a normal car off of just the center is from Tom's document or at least that is how I read it. With everything hooked up it runs really well I was just concerned about the mixture being lean for the trip. My biggest issue write now seems to be stemming from the distributor, it appears the advance plate is stilling and the vacuum advance doesn't hold vacuum, this is on a brand new distributor, I have another one ordered. I really think that is my biggest issue. Since I haven't chased all the numbers I cant say for certain that the metering block and bowl are from the 340 but I have a 4791 base/body in the extra stuff and my ASSUMPTION was that it was bad and replaced with the 440 piece so I just built the 440 one cause that was the one that was on the complete set up when I bought it. I matched all the gaskets as I always do when building a carb so they are at least what was in there, right wrong or otherwise. I wil take some pictures of the block and bowl when I remove them. I've put over 800 trouble free miles on it since I fired it March 31st and plan to drive it over 3000 or so between next week end when I leave and after the Nats when I get home. Not trying to squeeze every ounze of power out of it just want it reliable and of course not doing itself any damage. The help so far has been appreciated so please keep that coming but I am not sure condemning it or me is in order just yet.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/29/14 11:01 PM

Quote:

remember the car ran extremely well, and the reason I started playing with it was that there was a slight surge at highway speeds, I don't think I am ready to scrape it or the carbs I was just concerned about the mixture being lean for the trip. it appears the advance plate is stilling

If the can is leaking that could certainly give it a lean surge/hesitation. cap the dist vac line & take it out for a spin would ans that Q pretty fast. what is the plate doing?

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 12:37 AM

You may be onto something, I did unplag the vacuum advance and saw little/no difference. Here is an additional item that I found a few minutes ago. With the vacuum advance leaking it has the plate almost locked so it doesn't move at all, in that position the ignition module is hitting the apex(s) of the distributor shaft, I wonder if it is bumping it and tweaking the timing and the spring in the advnace is pulling it back to do it all over again, essentially changing the timing a degree or 3 everytime it does it, in my thinking that could cause the surge. It also might explain way the idle went down hill once I started playing with it, not I was doing it but the can went bad/got progressively worse while I was tweaking, not necessarily related just coinsedence of timing.

What so you? Am I onto something? It obviously has to be fixed either way and there is no hope of adjusting everything else out with the distibutor issues.

Attached picture 8159352-Ignitionmodule.JPG

Attached picture 8159352-Ignitionmodule.JPG

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 01:45 AM

If you have another dist in your stash toss it in. For the plugs. www.wallaceracing.com/plug-reading-lm.html

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 01:58 AM

Thanks Robert,

Working on the distributor, I am gonna ground the apex(s) to solve that issue, I will find another vacuum advance tomorrow hopefully. I got a replacement distributor but the advance canister on it is now good as well, just a cheap set up I bought to house the Accel unit. Buy junk own junk, right. that is one of the sites I looked at when I was chasing the info this morning and using that as a guide mine was not running lean and in fact slightly rich with the 64s so that puts my mind at ease for one of my concerns. Do you see something different in my plug above? I am gonna post a picture on my plug thread of want they looked like after the 67s and then back to 65Hs and of course way too much timing, look in on that if you can.

Does anybody know what the H is for on the jets?

Thank you again.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 02:09 AM

yeah according to Wallace your plug in the pic shows rich so you definitely would not want to go 4 sizes larger on the jets! Get that dist squared away & what apex are you going to grind on? Just WAG ing on the "H". decades ago a company was offering some different holley jets (hi tolerance) or something to that effect & it might be one of them. I dont think holley puts an "H" on their jets but I ain't really a holley guy. Holler how the dist change does

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 02:30 AM

The apexes that would normally activate the points, I am using a light beam with a shutter window rotor. It's by Accel but it is basically a unilite.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 02:33 AM

gotcha, I think you'll be in good shape in no time. I will check on the timing

Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 04:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Man, I guess I got lucky in the day.. My first v-code '70 Charger R/T always ran great, even as a daily driver for many many years ( that's why I'm sure ).

Troy, a lot of luck is common sense !!

?

I was trying to convey that I put on a new set of carbs ( put the old originals on the shelf ) and didn't do anything. Plug and Play and she ran great. I did have the original camshaft in it. The only mod I did was convert to an electronic distributor...

Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 11:42 AM

195 thermostat is required so the fuel does not collect in the intake while idling and burn off in the cruise mode. This will only be seen with a wideband A-F meter!. Today's fuel requires a hotter operating temperature. Btw 195 degrees is not hot.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 12:59 PM

I did put the 195* in and didn't see a difference but this again was as the distributor was failing so not a good idea what it did or didn't do for it. One thing I found interesting was adding the water wetter, I have run it in one of my other cars and it did drop the coolant temp around 10*. I agree 195* isn't hot, heard years ago that Nascar runs theirs at something like 220*, many modern cars trigger the fans at 212*.

Thank you for your input.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 01:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Man, I guess I got lucky in the day.. My first v-code '70 Charger R/T always ran great, even as a daily driver for many many years ( that's why I'm sure ).

Troy, a lot of luck is common sense !!

?

I was trying to convey that I put on a new set of carbs ( put the old originals on the shelf ) and didn't do anything. Plug and Play and she ran great. I did have the original camshaft in it. The only mod I did was convert to an electronic distributor...

It was your comment about surging that got me thinking outside the carbs. I'm just not buying if they weren't built by one of the names then they must be junk. The few things I have done by a "professional" I usually have to redo to get right.

Thank you for your input.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 11:39 PM

Attached picture 8160298-Carbparts3.jpeg

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 11:40 PM

Attached picture 8160299-Carbparts2.jpeg

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 11:42 PM

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 11:44 PM

IT's skipping some of my post so I don't know if I am repeating myself but..........

These are pictures of my metering block and bowl so hopefully someone can tell me if they are 340 or 440 pieces.

6

Attached picture 8160305-CArbparts5.JPG

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/30/14 11:47 PM

Well I modified my distributor today and put the 64 jets back in and returned it to my base settings. I regained control of my idle and it performs extremely well again with the exception that the surge it back/still there. Starts fine, hot started fine, accelerates cleaning and smoothly, idles well down to 600 or so if I wanted. Would have no need to cure anything if it wasn't for the surge. I ordered a set of 66s today that I will install tomorrow, it will be too rich I believe but I can at least see if it solves the surge and go from there.

What determines if a picture post or if it is an attachment? I posted them all the same way. Maybe it's the text???

Attached picture 8160310-CarbParts4.jpeg

Attached picture 8160310-CarbParts4.jpeg

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 12:48 AM

Well I modified my distributor today and put the 64 jets back in and returned it to my base settings. I regained control of my idle and it performs extremely well again with the exception that the surge it back/still there. I ordered a set of 66s today that I will install tomorrow, it will be too rich I believe but I can at least see if it solves the surge and go from there.

I also took some pictures of the metering block and the bowl so maybe someone can tell me if they are 340 or 440 pieces.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 12:55 AM

Attached picture 8160371-Carbparts1.jpeg

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 03:13 AM

Quote:

Well I modified my distributor today and put the 64 jets back in and returned it to my base settings. I regained control of my idle and it performs extremely well again with the exception that the surge it back/still there. I ordered a set of 66s today that I will install tomorrow, it will be too rich I believe but I can at least see if it solves the surge and go from there.

I also took some pictures of the metering block and the bowl so maybe someone can tell me if they are 340 or 440 pieces.

The 6610 block is 340 also as is the bowl which incidentally if that's the way you took it off ,float level is way to high.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 05:43 AM

Thank you, what problems will the 340 block and bowl on a 440 center cause? I set the float level at the bottom of the window with sight glass per Tom's instructions, I think Dayclona's call for halfway up the glass. It isn't loading up and I cant tell that I am getting bleed over in the carb.

Any suggestion on the surge other than going to 66s?

Another question, should the secondaries hold vacuum when pulled in the port? It activates but doesn't hold, the pods will hold if I have them in my hand and push the diaphram in and hold my finger over the hole. When I have it mounted to the carb it doesn't hold and I hear it bleeding off inside. I double checked a 440 set up I have and it is the same. AND they definitely seem to be fully engaging when I am on it.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 05:54 AM

Quote:

IT's skipping some of my post so I don't know if I am repeating myself but..........

These are pictures of my metering block and bowl so hopefully someone can tell me if they are 340 or 440 pieces.

6

Is that a date code in the bowl, Jan.82.

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 02:39 PM

There is a air bleed inside the venturi behind the vacuum diaphragm,if you look down inside you will see a small hole cover it with you finger and the diaphragm tube at the same time,it should hold vacuum.On the float level,you will notice the sight plug is higher on the center carb,you can go higher on the ends but will probably have a problem if you go much higher on the center.Just finished this set,sight plug location is very easy to see.

Date code on bowl is 82.

Next post has air bleed location.

Attached picture 8160698-Picture488.jpg

Posted By: srt

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 02:54 PM

any chance manifold or booster leak is causing vacuum fluctuations?
I chased more than one holley surge/idle issue caused by problems in those two components.

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 02:56 PM

Almost any vacuum leak will cause a problem.

Air bleed location.

Attached picture 8160713-Picture515.jpg

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 03:08 PM

Quote:

any chance manifold or booster leak is causing vacuum fluctuations?
I chased more than one holley surge/idle issue caused by problems in those two components.

Not that I can tell, the only other test I could do is to take it on one of the back roads and cap off the booster post and see if it makes a difference. Have sprayed the intake a number times with no signs of a leak, it could be internal but it shows no signs of sucking oil.

Posted By: srt

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 03:11 PM

Quote:

Almost any vacuum leak will cause a problem.
...

right, while I'm checking in mid-stream, just wondering if sorting the carbs is chasing a symptom rather than the cause.
I noticed op's other post of the sooted-up/white insulator plugs.
Got me to thinking that a vacuum leak down-stream of the carbs may need investigated. i.e. a split booster diaphragm that opens up under high vacuum only.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 03:19 PM

Quote:

There is a air bleed inside the venturi behind the vacuum diaphragm,if you look down inside you will see a small hole cover it with you finger and the diaphragm tube at the same time,it should hold vacuum.On the float level,you will notice the sight plug is higher on the center carb,you can go higher on the ends but will probably have a problem if you go much higher on the center.Just finished this set,sight plug location is very easy to see.

Date code on bowl is 82.

Next post has air bleed location.

I'll cover the bleeds today and make sure the pod to body seal is holding later. Using the sight glass, I set it to just be visible, afterwardds when I removed the sight glass to put the plug back in it didn't dump a lot of fuel like one that is set high either. The base float set up I have always heard and used on a center pivot you set the top of the float parallel to the top of the bowl and then adjust on the car running. In the picture my bowl isn't close to parallel.

I will definitely give you this, mine don't look nearly that good, not to get your trade secret but do you recoat the carbs or is that some brand of carb paint?

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 05/31/14 05:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

There is a air bleed inside the venturi behind the vacuum diaphragm,if you look down inside you will see a small hole cover it with you finger and the diaphragm tube at the same time,it should hold vacuum.On the float level,you will notice the sight plug is higher on the center carb,you can go higher on the ends but will probably have a problem if you go much higher on the center.Just finished this set,sight plug location is very easy to see.

Date code on bowl is 82.

Next post has air bleed location.

I'll cover the bleeds today and make sure the pod to body seal is holding later. Using the sight glass, I set it to just be visible, afterwardds when I removed the sight glass to put the plug back in it didn't dump a lot of fuel like one that is set high either. The base float set up I have always heard and used on a center pivot you set the top of the float parallel to the top of the bowl and then adjust on the car running. In the picture my bowl isn't close to parallel.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Set the fuel level with the engine running, for starters bring the fuel level up to the bottom of the site plug hole, I too like to use the clear site plugs, as I bring the center carb fuel height up to the center of the window, for street use just at the bottom of the site plug is fine, if your going to throw the car around a road course/track event, then that's when I bring the fuel level up to the middle of the site plug on all 3 carbs"new" Holley clear site plugs suck!, as you found out earlier, they just dissolve with fuel and soften up, the Moroso clear site plugs I have heard from another member are much better if you want to keep them in, all my six pack cars run clear site plugs, fortunately I bought a number of them years ago, but a recent set (Holley) I bought for a 4bbl application lasted like 1 day before the suckers snapped off!

Anyway here's a closer pic of the air bleeds mentioned earlier (not a six pack carb, but still a Holley for reference)

Mike)

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/01/14 03:46 AM

Yep, I found the air bleed and had a slight leak in the front one, pulled the pod off and the o-ring appeared pinched, I replaced it and then they both had when I put vacuum to them. It wasn't enough of a leak to keep it from working and I cant image it would have caused a running issue since the air bleed is a built in leak in that circuit. I replaced the jets with 66s today and it pretty much cured the surge, I think I might feel it slightly but I may also be convincing myself of that. It doesn't appear to be running too rich from the plug readings I am pulled and from what my eyes and noise tell me, so that much is good. It was hard to start after the replacement and ran like cr@p until it was warm, doesn't stall but idled a 12-1300 RPMs, the hot restarts are not terrible but definitely spins longer than normal before it fires. I am going try to adjust everything out tomorrow if I can with the 66s. I'd rather it run a little rich and not worry about leaning the engine out on my trip. The hot start I can live with but the ragged running on cold start up might make me go back to 64s and live with the surge.

Dayclona, does the float level like high to you in the above pictures? I have more on this but I will hold it until you add your opinion, so I don't taint your thinking.

Posted By: RobX4406

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/01/14 07:13 AM

When warm it idles at 1200-1300?

If so, something is still VERY wrong with the idle set up on the engine.

Posted By: lokalik

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/01/14 02:50 PM

not sue if this matters, just trying to help with ideas. what is your manifold vac and what power valve are you using?

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/01/14 03:37 PM

Quote:

When warm it idles at 1200-1300?

If so, something is still VERY wrong with the idle set up on the engine.

I kinda agree, but it doesn't have an idea issue with 64s, or anything else for that matter just the surge.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/01/14 03:41 PM

unless the idle speed screw is jacked way up for whatever reason I'm thinking the way high idle speed and the lean surge are both from a vac leak (just thinkin out loud before I have my coffee)

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/01/14 03:42 PM

Quote:

not sue if this matters, just trying to help with ideas. what is your manifold vac and what power valve are you using?

I haven't double checked it in this set configuration but 12ish at the time I have and I am running a 6.5. I verified that it wasn't ruptured Friday when I took the pictures of the metering plate. At this point I am listening to just about anything.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/01/14 06:44 PM

Try adjusting the outboard idle mixture screws in the base plates to 1/4 to 1/3 out from gently bottomed out

I found out the hard way that reducing or enlarging the idle mixture bleeds ended up affecting the AFR from idle to WOT

Lots of gremlins out there

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/02/14 03:26 AM

Quote:

unless the idle speed screw is jacked way up for whatever reason I'm thinking the way high idle speed and the lean surge are both from a vac leak (just thinkin out loud before I have my coffee)

That is the common logic but I'll be darned if I can find it, possibly from the bottom of the intake but no signs of sucking up oil. I cant say I know a to check the bottom with it assembled. The other thing that leans away from that is that it idles pretty much fine with the 64 jets.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/02/14 03:35 AM

Quote:

Try adjusting the outboard idle mixture screws in the base plates to 1/4 to 1/3 out from gently bottomed out I found out the hard way that reducing or enlarging the idle mixture bleeds ended up affecting the AFR from idle to WOT Lots of gremlins out there

That is where they are. I was able to adjust most of my idle issue out with a little more timing and some adjusting today but it has me a 38* on total mechanical advance and 46* with the vacuum, so I have the vacuum unplugged currently. I think I am gonna pull the distributor tomorrow and work on shorting the mechanical. It's running a touch rich for my liking but not bad, better rich than lean that's for sure.

Posted By: srt

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/02/14 04:20 PM

Did you get the opportunity to block off all vacuum lines and components to the intake/carbs?
Pulling the intake and re-installing it with known good procedures and blocking vac ports will quickly remove those sources of potential problem.
Running rich is not right. It seems (and is correct) that the problem is most apparent when you are getting the fuel mixture close to where it is optimal.
Vac leak remains highly suspect.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/02/14 04:30 PM

Quote:

Did you get the opportunity to block off all vacuum lines and components to the intake/carbs?
Pulling the intake and re-installing it with known good procedures and blocking vac ports will quickly remove those sources of potential problem.
Running rich is not right. It seems (and is correct) that the problem is most apparent when you are getting the fuel mixture close to where it is optimal.
Vac leak remains highly suspect.

Yes, I blocked off all vacuum lines at one point. I am beginning to think the intake is coming off but want to work with the timing first, I can get it real close but it throughs my total timing too high for comfort. I need to ask some advance questions but will start another tread for that.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/02/14 05:52 PM

I'd suggest keeping this all in the same thread. 36-38 is a tried and true BB advance total (not counting vac adv) so with you capping the can You are OK for the moment. I would continue searching for the culprit then we can fine tune the timing later. yes timing gets finalzied before carburetion but we have an issue to find and fix first

Posted By: 70sixpkrt

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/02/14 06:07 PM

Are the butterflies closing all the way? I was at a car show yesterday and talking to a guy that had richness problems. He took apart brand new carbs and found out the butterflies were not closing all the way. Just a suggestion.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/03/14 12:35 AM

Quote:

I'd suggest keeping this all in the same thread. 36-38 is a tried and true BB advance total (not counting vac adv) so with you capping the can You are OK for the moment. I would continue searching for the culprit then we can fine tune the timing later. yes timing gets finalzied before carburetion but we have an issue to find and fix first

It's a 340 and I considered keeping it in one place but thought a separate thread on the timing might be in order. And then there is the one on the plugs.

Yuck, I will double check but they seem to be.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/04/14 03:07 AM

Bit the bullet today and pulled the intake, there was just too many things lining you to say vacuum leak. I found one thing that was suspect but not conclusive, I'm letting it sit overnight and will fire it midday tomorrow and see what if anything changed. I just knew if I didn't it would be nawing at me on my drive and heaven forbid it caused a problem on the road and I had to deal with it or worse a failure I couldn't deal with quickly. I report back tomorrow.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 03:21 AM

Well I used a Mr. Gasket ultra seal gasket and the only thing it did was make my choke stove not work due to the intake not getting hot enough and it now has a longer warm start than before replacing the intake gasket. I have monkeyed with this thing for 2 weeks and it has gone down hill from where I had it originally. Everytime I go back to my basic settings it runs properly and just has the surge. I have to leave Friday morning so hopefully I have it where nothing will go wrong until I get to PA and I can work on the distributor up there.

I am beginning to wonder is the setting by Tom and Dayclona for best performance or for best behavior? Cause short of the Carter pump and the distributor I have done everything to the T with poor results. I know common thought is I am screwing something up or I don't know what I am doing but it's funny my settings make it run right and everything works properly.

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 04:09 AM

Out of curiosity,what carb base gasket are you using?If you are using the thin black gasket they will never seal if the base is not square,the only gasket I would ever use is the 2/32" O.E.M. tan cardboard gasket.

where in PA might you be going ?

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 04:33 AM

Doylestown, I work for Fred Beans 2 weeks a month. If you are close I'm bringing it to you!

Well I think I am running the black ones, where can I get the tan ones tomorrow??? My mine concern at this point is damaging it while driving, I can live with it's misbehaving until I get it ironed out. In PA, I have a few Mopar friends that can look at it, obviously whatever I am overlooking I will continue to overlook.

Right now I have 36* total putting it at about 46* with the vacuum advance. Is there reason to be concerned about that timing? I am driving roughly 550 miles Friday and another 550 Sunday.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 04:47 AM

Quote:

Right now I have 36* total putting it at about 46* with the vacuum advance. Is there reason to be concerned about that timing?

36 total is conservative normal BB amount. The extra 9 deg added in from the can is normal. If it ain't pinging from too light of spring combo (iirc it was not) then timingwise you are OK. EDIT 18 on the crank from the can as likely the 9 is the # stamped on the arm

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 04:57 AM

Robert, It is a 340 6 pack. The thread was started several years ago by Alan and I found it in a search and wondered if he figured his out, his was a 440. So in your view and I still OK with those numbers?

Thank you

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 05:05 AM

You're good my friend

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 05:07 AM

Quote:

You're good my friend

Thank you, ignore the PM.

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 05:08 AM

Quote:

Doylestown, I work for Fred Beans 2 weeks a month. If you are close I'm bringing it to you!

Well I think I am running the black ones, where can I get the tan ones tomorrow??? My mine concern at this point is damaging it while driving, I can live with it's misbehaving until I get it ironed out. In PA, I have a few Mopar friends that can look at it, obviously whatever I am overlooking I will continue to overlook.

Right now I have 36* total putting it at about 46* with the vacuum advance. Is there reason to be concerned about that timing? I am driving roughly 550 miles Friday and another 550 Sunday.

I doubt you can get them tomorrow unless you find a dealer that may have them in stock,the pt.# is P4529060,three base gaskets and three air horn gaskets,I keep extra's but that wont help you now

And Doylestown is 228 miles east !!

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 12:44 PM

Thanks for the part number. Yea, 228 makes it a little rough for one day after work but, if I spend another week on it that might not seem like an issue. My biggest regret right now is that I blocked the cross overs and now my choke doesn't work properly, I am gonna have to undo that in short order, rather than get hung up trying to fix something that wasn't broke. Never had an intake run cold enough not to work the choke stove around here and I usually don't run 195* t-stats either, strange.

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 02:44 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the part number. Yea, 228 makes it a little rough for one day after work but, if I spend another week on it that might not seem like an issue. My biggest regret right now is that I blocked the cross overs and now my choke doesn't work properly, I am gonna have to undo that in short order, rather than get hung up trying to fix something that wasn't broke. Never had an intake run cold enough not to work the choke stove around here and I usually don't run 195* t-stats either, strange.

Corrected the pt.# P4529060

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 03:30 PM

National back order.

Posted By: ademon

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 03:50 PM

If the idle didn't change when you sprayed around the base gaskets I wouldn't worry about them.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/05/14 11:35 PM

I wouldn't necessarily but I don't mind having stuff on hand so next time I have them off I can update, I've had them off enough times at this point they probably need swapping anyway.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/09/14 01:23 PM

Well, I over jetted it, put a little more total timing than I would like but not dangerous, I went 600 miles Friday, stayed in Pigeon Forge for the week end and then did 650 yesterday to get to Doylestown. Other a having to pay attention to it trying to stall at idle when the mechanical would fall out it went off without a hitch and NO surging at highway speeds

. I plugged a few plugs before taking off yesterday morning before my ride and they looked fine. I am gonna work on the distributor this wweek up here to see if I can correct it. It feels/acts almost like the wieghts are sticking when you come back to idle. I will try to up date when I find the conclusion of all of this.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/10/14 04:04 AM

I'm glad the trip came off OK as I knew you were sweatin that. We're gettin closer

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/13/14 04:00 AM

Replaced the distributor tonight with a new Mopar single point a buddy had with my electronics in it, immeidiate improvement, it will idea, set it at 12 initial, total is right at 34 all in by 22-2400. Drove well and had good power. I didn't really have time to adjust every thing out and will hopefully get a chance to tweak it tomorrow night. I am convinced that the either the wieghts or the plate was sticking, now I just have to talk my buddy into letting me keep the distributor. My guess is that it wasn't sticking early on and after some driving it began to stick, progressively getting worse. The question remains was it causing the original surging I was trying to fix. Chances are I wont swap the jetts back to 64s until I get home after the Nats, I'm OK with running a little rich with all the highway driving. Feel free to find me at Carlisle or the Nats and bust my chops, I deserve it.

Thanks for all the help and input, Kevin

Attached picture 8174636-Chet1.jpg

Posted By: srt

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/13/14 06:24 AM

glad you found it. Enjoy the ride!

Posted By: lokalik

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 06/15/14 01:40 PM

get a fire core distributor

Posted By: mopar346

Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs - 08/11/14 02:15 AM

4397 miles! but she's back home tucked away for the night in the shop, tomorrow I will put her up and give her the once over but in nearly 4400 miles I replaced the distributor (didn't cure the idle in the end but it did help it) changed the oil once, replaced the passenger exhaust flange gasket twice and adjusted the clutch. Not too much to complain about and those who I took for ride knows I didn't baby her. Time to rest.