Moparts
lost cam lobe on break in twice
Posted By: rusthole
lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/25/09 11:46 PM
I have tried to break in a mopar 509 cam (with revised centerline)twice now, each time I wore the tip off a lobe. A different lobe each time. No oiling problems, followed all the breakin rules, used oil with zinc and lubed it properly, read previous posts about breakin proceedures.
My question- would I have better luck useing a different brand cam? Do some brands do better than others at breakin? What would be a comparable match in another brand?
Thanks in advance.....
Posted By: hemigod426
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/25/09 11:51 PM
what are your open and seat pressures on srings and hieght. you might have too much spring for that cam
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/25/09 11:52 PM
If you took out the inner spring or if your spring pressure isn't too high I'd suspect the cam. I wont buy a MP cam(or valves) because of too many personal & purported failures.
Posted By: stumpy
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/25/09 11:52 PM
How tight do the lifters fit in the block? Are you lubing the bottom of the lifters and the lobes of the cam and if so what are you using?
Posted By: Classof70Chally
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/25/09 11:53 PM
Been there, done that. Time for a roller.
Posted By: modelmakerinc
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/25/09 11:53 PM
Hi Rusthole,
sorry to say but it may be the cam material.
I wasted a MP 533 and I have a MP 509 going on me now. I am looking into a different brand Cam also I have not made up my mind so I'll follow this thread also
Posted By: hemisurfer
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/25/09 11:56 PM
I am running a higher lift Comp Cams solid lifter in my 440 stroker and have had zero issues.
I am happy with Comp Cams, just a suggestion if your looking to switch to a another cam company.
Posted By: hemigod426
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 12:09 AM
Quote:
Hi Rusthole,
sorry to say but it may be the cam material.
I wasted a MP 533 and I have a MP 509 going on me now. I am looking into a different brand Cam also I have not made up my mind so I'll follow this thread also
ive done rockwell harness tests on cam cores their ok it was all the newer lifters that are a joke. most cam corps use all the same blanks for cams. all the good lifter corps are gone. crower makes nice stuff still
Posted By: rusthole
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 12:12 AM
I have the "hemi" springs rated to .500 lift, so I guess I am slightly weak with the springs. I lubed the lifters on the bottom and sides and made sure they spin looslely. I have a standard valvetrain. Maybe I should upgrade to solid lifters if that helps? Need to get this thing going!
Posted By: ademon
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 12:16 AM
did all your lifters spin when you spun the cam buy hand? i do this with only light oil on the lifters and lobes.
Posted By: modelmakerinc
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 12:19 AM
Quote:
ive done rockwell harness tests on cam cores their ok it was all the newer lifters that are a joke. most cam corps use all the same blanks for cams. all the good lifter corps are gone
If the cam 's hardness is good but the lifters aren't then why does the cam lobe fail and not the lifter?
Posted By: mod5v
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 12:24 AM
Sounds to me like you have a spring "coil bind" issue or the retainerss/keepers are hitting the valve guide. Did u make sure that your heads are set up to take the lift u are useing?.I would check this before putting a new cam in because u may just wipe out any brand if u have this problem and all the "modern" design cams have even more lift for the same duration.
Posted By: rusthole
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 12:25 AM
I had the lifter bottom go concave on me both times as well
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 12:29 AM
i had a mp cam in a dakota with a 5.2l that was professionally installed and broke in. i had mp springs and the other goodies put in with it and it wore off 2 lobes within 2000 miles. i put in a summit cam and have since sold the truck due to the frame rotting out but it has 40000 on the summit cam and runs like a dream. now its someones firewood truck.
Posted By: hemigod426
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 12:31 AM
Quote:
Quote:
ive done rockwell harness tests on cam cores their ok it was all the newer lifters that are a joke. most cam corps use all the same blanks for cams. all the good lifter corps are gone
If the cam 's hardness is good but the lifters aren't then why does the cam lobe fail and not the lifter?
cam/lifter falure starts with metal transfer from lifter to lobe, like pepper grain size then cam acts like lathe and cuts them both to death
Posted By: GomangoCuda
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 12:47 AM
Quote:
I lubed the lifters on the bottom and sides and made sure they spin looslely.
Do not lube the sides of the lifters with the thick break in paste. The paste is for the lifter face and cam lobes only. If you put it on the sides it can prevent the lifters from spinning enough. Motor oil is all you need on the rest of the lifter and the lifter bores in the block.
There was a problem with bad lifters. Some were soft, some didn't have enough crown, some had the crown ground off center, and some were all of the above. If your lifters have been sitting on a dealers shelf for a few years, there's a good chance you got junk. I would only trust obviously very old lifters or very recent lifters.
Posted By: Crizila
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 03:17 AM
Lifter rotation problem. Dirt in the lifter bores/galleys, scoring, wrong lube on lifter walls ( previously stated ). A good test: With the side of the lifters and lifter bores lubed with light oil, they should slide down the lifter bores with only their own weight. If you can't acheive this, you might want to rent a broach and broach the lifter bores - I think hughes rents them.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 02:04 PM
Quote:
A good test: With the side of the lifters and lifter bores lubed with light oil, they should slide down the lifter bores with only their own weight.
I use WD40 & during mockup lift the lifters up off of the lobes w a finger & it should fall down onto the lobe under its own weight with a "thunk"
Posted By: lewtot184
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 02:41 PM
Quote:
I have the "hemi" springs rated to .500 lift, so I guess I am slightly weak with the springs. I lubed the lifters on the bottom and sides and made sure they spin looslely. I have a standard valvetrain. Maybe I should upgrade to solid lifters if that helps? Need to get this thing going!
if those springs are set up for 1.88 installed heigth they will coil bind before .509 lift. those springs are obsolete.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 02:54 PM
Quote:
Maybe I should upgrade to solid lifters if that helps? Need to get this thing going!
I wouldn't, get a good cam & premium lifters(whatever these guys recommend) and a side note I always heard comp cams stuff was excellent but now I have heard of lifter problems with them
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 03:23 PM
My MP509 just went flat as well, in addition to 4 lifters being collapsed
Posted By: doctor_mopar
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 03:52 PM
Are you following proper break in procedure by getting the engine up to enough RPM right away for breakin of the cam?
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 04:27 PM
Quote:
I have the "hemi" springs rated to .500 lift, so I guess I am slightly weak with the springs. I lubed the lifters on the bottom and sides and made sure they spin looslely. I have a standard valvetrain. Maybe I should upgrade to solid lifters if that helps? Need to get this thing going!
well, springs rated to 500 lift but trying to use them with a 509 cam ain't going to work well unless you are real lucky. Spring goes to coil bind and is solid - something has to give. with luck it will be a push rod bending.
Springs should have at least (preferably more) .060 more travel than the valve lift. Same with clearance from the retainer to the guide/seal clearance. To avoid possible further problems the entire engine should be torn down and flushed and cleaned to get the filings that are all through the engine out.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 05:29 PM
I has problems even before fire up with comp lifters a few years ago and RyanJ recommended the Crane anti-pump ups. No trouble after that. Not sure it if still holds true but.........
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRN%2D99278%2D16&autoview=sku
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 05:36 PM
I wouldn't put a mopar cam in my motor if you gave it to me for free!!!,,i;ve had very good luck with Lunati cams for a few years now,no problem breaking them in either..then again we don't break them in like everyone else,thats probably why they live...
Posted By: Crizila
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 05:46 PM
Don't think you have a coil bind problem or you would have more than one lifter problem - and other broken / bent stuff.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 05:50 PM
When I ran into a core shifted cam from RB I found out that only 2 vendors provided cam cores, Engine Power and Crane. I also found out if you bought a shelf grind from Comp you got the Crane core, but if you bought a custom grind you got the EP core. Apparently the problems are/were with the Crane cores. I don't know where the Purple cams come from, but in this day and age there are cams better suited to individual combos than the Mopar grinds.
I tried to find the lengthy thread I had posted dealing with this issue but apparently it's purged from the system. The extensive picture file I have is locked up in a crashed hard drive. Anybody installing a cam should look for core shift issues. The problem is that the lobes don't line up under the lifters correctly. This prevents the lifters from spinning and/or quickly wears off the taper on the lobes. More than likely, this isn't the issue here, but it could be. Unless you know what to look for when installing the cam, the diagnosis would be attributed to wrong oil, lifter rotation, spring pressure etc.
Posted By: 85_Ram_4speed
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 08:11 PM
Quote:
..then again we don't break them in like everyone else,thats probably why they live...
So care to share how you do it, it is it some big trade secret? 
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 08:25 PM
Quote:
Don't think you have a coil bind problem or you would have more than one lifter problem - and other broken / bent stuff.
Maybe - maybe not. Says a different lobe each time. 
Posted By: dOrk !
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 08:43 PM
Quote:
Been there, done that. Time for a roller.
Now THAT sounds like the ticket ...but ...
How about the reports about the rollers coming apart OR the guide-bars falling off ? ...I have not heard of ANY fail-safe upgrade here.
Anyone see that new Comp Cams new process on the lobes of a regular non-roller cam ?
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 10:19 PM
It seems like alot of people have problems with the purpleshafts nowadays. I know someone who wasted one of the revised 484 grinds on break in, but he bought another one and recently switched to the revised 509 and didnt have problems with those.
Posted By: rusthole
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/26/09 11:45 PM
I was able to find the lifter from the wasted lobe and looked more closely at it. It looks like the scarring is all in one direction- like it never rotated.
I will change to another brand with a lift no more than .500 and clean up my lifter bores. No cam lube on the sides!
Posted By: todd440
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/27/09 12:21 AM
Ya' we put the cam in,fire the car up set the timing and idle check oil pressure and temp..take the car for a blast,come back change oil and filter..We don't start it let it sit there running at 2500 rpms for a certain time,always get a kick out of that..oh and we NEVER had cam failure with this procedure can't say the same for the method everyone else thinks your suppose to use
Yes, I'm with him. I never break in a cam at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes. Make sure it's timed, prefill the carb, start and run at maybe 1400, bliping the gas now and then for 4-5 minutes. Slight cool down, and repeat. I've never wiped a cam.
Posted By: B5 Bee
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/27/09 12:44 AM
Quote:
Quote:
ive done rockwell harness tests on cam cores their ok it was all the newer lifters that are a joke. most cam corps use all the same blanks for cams. all the good lifter corps are gone
If the cam 's hardness is good but the lifters aren't then why does the cam lobe fail and not the lifter?
The cam and lifters need to be hard to prevent excessive wear, but the lifter has to be harder than the cam. The lifter has to be harder because it has load on one contact point all the time, where as the cams contact loaded point is spread all around the cams lobe.
Once the smooth contact surfaces are gone for different reasons (low zinc/pho, soft lobes, soft lifters, stuck lifters, improper break in, etc), friction increases and wear starts. That's when the harder lifter will rapidly take out the cam lobe.
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/27/09 12:55 AM
Quote:
The lifter has to be harder because it has load on one contact point all the time, where as the cams contact loaded point is spread all around the cams lobe.
The cam lob has a slight taper and the lifter has a slight 'dome'. The lifter does not contact the full face of the lifter or vice versa. The lifter also is supposed to spin as th cam shaft rotates so that the contact patch is not constant. If the lifter does not spin in the bore the cam and lifter will be destroyed in very short order.
Posted By: B5 Bee
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/27/09 01:05 AM
Quote:
Quote:
The lifter has to be harder because it has load on one contact point all the time, where as the cams contact loaded point is spread all around the cams lobe.
The cam lob has a slight taper and the lifter has a slight 'dome'. The lifter does not contact the full face of the lifter or vice versa. The lifter also is supposed to spin as th cam shaft rotates so that the contact patch is not constant. If the lifter does not spin in the bore the cam and lifter will be destroyed in very short order.
The point I was making is the load is focused on one small area on the lifter but spread out all over the lobe. Sure the lifter spins which helps to spread the load, but it is still a concentrated area compared to the lobe.
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/27/09 01:08 AM
Point II am making is that the lobe is also tapered so that the lifter is riding on a very small portion of the cam face.
Posted By: Robbins
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/27/09 01:51 AM
How much lifter rotation is there in say spinning the motor over one revolution?
I mean say you mark the lifter and the bore....and you turn the motor over one revolution....how far should the lifter turn from the mark on the block?
Posted By: Von
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/27/09 02:18 AM
Quote:
I was able to find the lifter from the wasted lobe and looked more closely at it. It looks like the scarring is all in one direction- like it never rotated.
I will change to another brand with a lift no more than .500 and clean up my lifter bores. No cam lube on the sides!
So have you pulled the motor down after losing 2 cams?
Posted By: dOrk !
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/27/09 02:23 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I was able to find the lifter from the wasted lobe and looked more closely at it. It looks like the scarring is all in one direction- like it never rotated.
I will change to another brand with a lift no more than .500 and clean up my lifter bores. No cam lube on the sides!
So have you pulled the motor down after losing 2 cams?
OR ...at least drop the engine oil pan. THEN put a magnet in there to collect the rest of the "trash".
Posted By: 64Post
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/27/09 02:44 AM
Quote:
Quote:
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I was able to find the lifter from the wasted lobe and looked more closely at it. It looks like the scarring is all in one direction- like it never rotated.
I will change to another brand with a lift no more than .500 and clean up my lifter bores. No cam lube on the sides!
So have you pulled the motor down after losing 2 cams?
OR ...at least drop the engine oil pan. THEN put a magnet in there to collect the rest of the "trash".
A bunch of the metal is up in the skirts by now...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/27/09 03:36 PM
Quote:
How much lifter rotation is there in say spinning the motor over one revolution?
I mean say you mark the lifter and the bore....and you turn the motor over one revolution....how far should the lifter turn from the mark on the block?
not much , but the lifter should rotate close to a 1/4 turn , it doesn't rotate till it goes over the nose of the lifter lobe . I usually mark all lifters and all pushrods and rotate the crank untill I have seen 1 full revoution of all the lifters and pushrods .
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: lost cam lobe on break in twice - 04/27/09 03:37 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I was able to find the lifter from the wasted lobe and looked more closely at it. It looks like the scarring is all in one direction- like it never rotated.
I will change to another brand with a lift no more than .500 and clean up my lifter bores. No cam lube on the sides!
So have you pulled the motor down after losing 2 cams?
OR ...at least drop the engine oil pan. THEN put a magnet in there to collect the rest of the "trash".
A bunch of the metal is up in the skirts by now...
Never mind how trashed the oil pump is .