Sniper vs Terminator EFI

I am looking to convert my 70 Challenger to efi. It is just a street car with mild 440 stroker.
I plan on getting the Hyperspark distributor and the retrofit fuel pump. Is the Terminator Stealth Throttle Body Fuel injection System worth 2x the cost of the Sniper ?
Is the Sniper unreliable since the EGU is part of the TB?

I have a Sniper on my Challenger. It has a 511 stroker in it. The main issue I have had is RFI. The Terminator has a remote ECU that can be located away from the engine bay in a more friendly RFI environment.
That being said, I have gotten mine to run very well after cleaning up some wiring and changing to a Denso alternator.
I think the Terminator has more inputs and outputs that can be used.
Good luck, which ever way you go.

I have a Sniper on my '65 Coronet. It works just fine with the Hyperspark ignition setup. I've written a few magazine articles on the install as well as shot some short youtube videos. Proper wiring is critical. If you don't have a decent understanding of EFI wiring then you'll want to get some help with the install. The Holley instructions don't go into much depth and a lot of "old school" hot rodders don't understand how important wiring layout is for a microprocessor. If the wiring isn't correct the Sniper won't run.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/holley-hyperspark-install-tune/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64DrLMCLULA

I have swapped modern engine in an old car(71 510 w/ 97 KA24DE) and replaced factory ecu with an AEM standalone ecu but didn't tune it. All the wiring is new so far I have not had any issues
I know about some of the RFI issues and importance of good grounds. When I was a tech 30 years ago
we had fun chasing down gremlins caused by bad grounds. My car has the a modern alt and Firecore wires but the wiring is mostly original. I was interested in the Terminator Stealth for the ability to upgrade to “HP” ECU specs with a free online software download and keeping the ecu out of the engine bay for reliability. Not sure it is worth 2x cost to me. I would like to learn how to setup fuel and spark tables.

It really depends what you want to do with the system. The Sniper is a fully featured entry level system. It can do a ton of stuff but it is limited on extra channels. The Super Sniper has three channels of info and the Sniper XFlow is CNC machined with larger injectors for more power so those are two "in between" options. I wouldn't buy a Terminator unless you really need some of the features. Rich at FAST Man EFI is a board member and a Holley dealer. Call him and ask him which one he recommends. He'll provide you with some information and get you a decent price on the system that you pick. He can also provide you with an online EFI training class.

Have you considered the MSD Atomic throttle body EFI? The control module can be mounted inside the car. I have installed a couple of these and they work great. $1268.95 at Summit. Also since you can mount the control module inside I don’t believe they will have the RFI issues like the Sniper. You still need to have good grounds. They have the same capability as the Sniper. I had a Fast 2000 on the 512 in my 69 Bee. Loved it but they are expensive.

No but I will look into the MSD Atomic EFI.
Also will call Rich and see what he recommends.
Thank you.

I think the MSD Atomic is dead now that Holley owns MSD.

Don’t think so. The are still available from Summit and Speedway Motors. Also still listed on The Holley web page.

https://www.holley.com/search/?q=Atomic%20EFI

The 1268 kit lacks a fuel pump, also not sure you get the wideband with it either, guessing not or it’d be mentioned.

I had an early Holley projection system on a 440. It worked well enough, but didn’t have the o2 and the mpg wasn’t good. I had a truck with a TQ that ran every bit as good as that system did. Only way I’d consider efi now is with a sensor. I think the options now are cool, but being older and wiser I see them all as being more complication and small improvement for an occasional use car. Occams Razor.

Haven’t seen a throttle body efi that doesn’t have an o2 sensor yet. Most don’t come with a fuel pump. If the do it’s us external. They really should have an in tank pump. External pumps work but I wouldn’t recommend using one. I seen a huge fuel mileage increase when I put the FASt 2000 on my 512 stroker. Having better control of the air fuel ratio helped but I believe having the ability to program the timing curve has the most influence on MPG.

The Projection had an O2 sensor as an added cost option, not included. FWIW, it was a horrible setup. Put the 2Di on my Diplomat, it ran after a fashion, sprung for the O2 option, no difference in function. It did teach me a lot about how NOT to do a TBI setup.

I am using a stealth sniper and love it so far (Demon with a 451). Thus far it has only been "tuned" using the learn mode. I have no experience with the Terminator system.

The Atomic is dead, they are just selling what is left on the shelf. The Atomic 2 is basically a Sniper in disguise.

I hear ya. Everyone I know running a Sniper is happy with it. I’m now debating between the Atomic or Sniper. I like the Atomc only because the control module can be installed inside the vehicle. On the other hand I like the fact that you don’t need an ignition box with the Sniper just the harness to the coil and distributor. Anyone using the Holley Sniper EFI HyperSpark Distributor? This is for a street only application in a Federal Motors Truck Rat Rod.

No technical support for the true Atomics.

A friend installed one a couple of years ago on his LS turbo '70 Chevelle and it was quickly obsolete. He pulled it all off and recently installed a Holley Terminator. Crazy how much he spent on the Atomic originally just to have it not supported shortly thereafter.

.

Now that I think about it you are absolutely correct. This makes my decision much easier. I’ll be going with the Sniper and the HyperSpark Distributor.

I'm using their entire kit with the distributor, ignition box and coil. Was fairly painless to setup and I was already aware of head clearance issues thanks to Andy's article. I'm looking forward to fine tuning the spark map this spring.

The higher cost atomic on that list comes with a fuel pump and mentions an o2. For 1268 bucks it appears you don’t get either.

Well I had an interesting morning. Loosing my shop. Guy who was working on the car is out of the area, job shortened my hours and the union is looking to strike on top of my surgery may not be fully covered by my insurance. The fuel injection will have to wait. I will reach out to Rich as he has done a couple buddies of mine cars and looking like the Holley Sniper is going to go on (when the funds come available) will be going one one of the cars. Thank you to everyone who responded to my question and had great advice for my projects.

If you deciding between the Terminator and Sniper, you may want to look at the Terminator X stealth throttle body. It sits in a middle ground in both price and function, between the Terminator and the Sniper EFI. The ECU mounts separately like the Terminator ECU. It lacks some of the IO and advanced features of the HP/Terminator ecu, but like the HP/Terminator it can still be upgraded to multiport in the future.

Thanks, that looks it would work for me. For $450 more than the Sniper seems like a no brainer. The Terminator Stealth is nice but gets a bit pricey once you start adding fuel and ign upgrades.

I ended up getting the Terminator X stealth 4150 throttle body.Just finished installing Terminator X today.
Started instantly it was 38 degrees and idled at 900 when warmed up and seems to run well. Install was straightforward used the Holley in-tank pump easy peasy. I decided not to buy the Hypersark instead I purchased a new ignition module from FBO that eliminates the ballast.
Glad I bought it last spring it has gone up quite a bit like everything. Hopefully, will take it out in a day of 2

This is my biggest worry with any aftermarket FI, honestly. Snipers and Terminators have been around for a reasonable amount of time, but at some point they’ll be replaced with new technology, also become obsolete and then become difficult to find parts for. It’s happened with earlier Holley systems already, and a few other FI systems.

NASCAR uses that system I believe so I think it will be supported for some time to come.

Kevin

I've had a few customers get stung by the above. one was an earlier Holley TPI setup. They did offer to sell him a newer version at list price

Megasquirt or it's variants.

That's what I am putting on my 51 Plymouth. All the hard parts, except the actual throttle bodies and air cleaner, are off the shelf OEM parts. Wiring is wiring. The computer is the only unique part and it'll be been around longer than the current stuff being talked about. Way more support than them too. Open source coding, you want a unique feature? There are people that will write that for you, for a fee. Yes t will self learn too.

But you do have to know something about what you are doing.

You do have to know something about what you are doing with EFI. And isn't that a real issue for most guys? We are 60 years or so in on our most popular carb platforms and most guys don't know a main jet from an air bleed. Or want to. Now along comes retrofit EFI. And it changes, but not necessarily solves the issues confronting the average car guy.

While some guys have good success with these systems, many don't. Here, in no particular order are my issues with the current crop of retrofit EFI:

EFI is much more expensive than the carbs they are trying to replace. Even if you add in the cost to have your off the shelf carb professionally tuned which would eliminate 90+% of EFI's purported advantages.

Obsolescence that makes the system useless because you can't get proprietary parts. Besides the fact that if a component fails on the road, obsolete or not, you may not be able to access it.

Today's retrofit EFI is still a wet manifold system that has all the issues of a carbureted induction system.

Today's retro EFI is as obsolete as the carbs that they seek to replace. No auto manufacturer has used them for decades. And port EFI is not feasible for the vast majority of us. And even some of them end up in batch.

EFI introduces a ton more of potential electrical issues. In fact, most of the complaints that I read about from retrofit EFI owners concerns electrical problems. And those problems can be nearly impossible to diagnose over the phone, even if minor. Especially when there is only limited tech support at best. And sometimes none at all.

And finally, a properly selected and properly tuned carburetor is easily the match for any of the self tuning EFI kits. Only when a well tuned EFI kit is compared to an out-of-the-box carb does the EFI show any improvement. And it has been proven time and again that the carb wins the horsepower wars.

Much like the EV situation, the current crop of EFI retro kits are not ready for prime time. Not really the best solution for most of us. Sure, there are guys and situations that have benefited from them. But, by and large they are not the best choice for most of us for our muscle cars.

very well said sir
You did leave out one part, most installers DO NOT have the knowledge or understand the critical importance of wire termination at the terminals as well as Voltage supply and grounds.
OK, 1 more, 40 feet of rubber hose for your supply and return lines GIT ER DONE quick and easy.
LOL, Don't forget the scotchlock connectors LOL .
I Suggest getting an assortment for a professional installation

LINKY

I have a spread sheet with the price I paid for every part I needed to put EFI on my 51. $1024.49. From fuel pump to air cleaners, it's a dual TBI setup all of it name brand stuff, it could have been cheaper if I ran off brand. It also includes a wide band O2 sensor, every connector and all the other sensors needed to run. When you include all the parts of a quality carb system, fuel pump to air cleaner, the costs are similar. Don't forget the wideband.



There is exactly one proprietary part in the whole system, the ECU. Everything else is off the shelf OEM stuff.



Only true if you are going throttle body injection, otherwise not true. A carb has those issues regardless. Not sure how this proves a point.



Not sure what version of EFI you are claiming to be obsolete here. The setup I am using can be TBI, batch fire or sequential injection. Not sure if it can do DI, but that's a bad choice regardless.



If you are scared of electricity or ignorant of it then that's your issue not EFI's. It is only as good as the installer and as I said you do have to know what you are doing.



There are a small handful of shops that can "properly tune" a carb and they are nowhere near me. A properly tuned EFI system is a match for a properly tuned carb system, anywhere you care to look at it. But if you are only comparing an out of the box EFI system to a tuned carb system does your claim come close to holding water and only until the EFI tunes itself. None of those ships can really compensate for distribution issues a wet manifold can induce, EFI doesn't have that issue unless it is TBI.



You do like to conflate don't you? If your knowledge is decades out of date, so are your conclusions.

Funny but I thought it was you that said; "But you do have to know something about what you are doing."

Doesn't that dismiss most of us old guys with muscle cars. And most young guys with muscle cars.

Electrical knowledge is second only to carburetor knowledge as the least understood of a car's systems by most average guys. Now I understand that as exceptional as you are, that you might not understand that.

Why don't you go ahead and lay out your low cost EFI spread sheet so that those of us that aren't as exceptional as you can do it too? Now that would be cool! Besides, I would like to double check your math should some of us decide to try your very cost effective system. Not that you would try to hoodwink us or anything.

Here is the latest in a whole series of long threads on this subject over on PhantomBullet. 6 pages worth from both sides of the aisle. Read them and see which one of us is closer to the real world with our opinion. Just be prepared for some strong statements.

Either way, it's certainly entertaining. And after all, isn't that what this is all supposed to be about?

every time i see "scotch locks" i cringe.................
what is the rest of the wiring like ?

#m makes many different versions of high quality "Scotch Locks" used in many different industries including communications, I first ran into them in the mid 1960s working for a telephone company in SO CA, they offered a number of different types that never failed if used properly You need to know that all of our voltage and amperages were very low, 52 Volts D.C. max, except for the ringing currents, and very low milliamps.