Moparts
my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle....
Posted By: JRs_Charger
my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 07:07 AM
We went to the quarter mile dragstrp last month, and I got outran by the freakin tow vehicle that pulled me down there......
Anyway, the car is a 70 Charger RT, and the specs on my freshly built engine are 440 .030 over. Flat top speed pro 9-1 compression pistons, stock forged crank and rods, Comp cams XE268 cam, iron sixpack intake and carbs professionally rebuilt, 727 auto with mancini 2200 stall converter, 3.23 rear gears, electric fan, aluminum radiator, full interior, MSD 6A box, stock suspension, etc.. The fuel pump is definatley too small, I've got a 10 psi autozone fuel pump that's starving the car for gas I'm sure. Seems like after 50 feet its out of fuel.
We didn't degree the camshaft when we assembled it, just lined up the dots. I still havent put a timing light on the engine either. Just got it close enough by ear. The only really tuned part on the engine are the carbs I suppose. They were rebuilt by a professional Pro Stock driver/mechanic.
It feels like there is potential here. I lined up with a 400 hp Supercharged 06 Mustang GT, and had him the first 100 feet til the bottom just fell out of my car. Also, it seems to bog and cut out if you put it under a load while crusing like the valves are rattling. Similar to running too low octane gasoline.
My car is running all kinds of stupid, and it's really embarrasing to have a car look so good and run so bad. How should this car be running? What kind of times? It never saw better than a 16.50 this time.
What do I need to do? Also, what is QUIET high po fuel pump? I've had a holley blue, and while it was more than strong enough, the constant whining on a car I mainly drive on the street is very annoying.
To quote Martin Larwence here, "What the problem is?"
Posted By: bobby66
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 11:25 AM
You could probably get by with a good Holley mechanical pump. Clay Smith makes a HP pump but I think it takes some grinding to make it fit. Get your timing set. 18 initial 36 total is a good place to start.
Posted By: lokalik
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 12:30 PM
how do you set the inital and the total without reworking the distributor?
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 12:37 PM
Quote:
how do you set the inital and the total without reworking the distributor?
You don't. Sounds like you need hands on help before you have pieces. Rattles under load like low octane. Better start there -
Posted By: mark7171
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 01:01 PM
are you a mechanic, part of mechan 9 ? do you serve layton? are you group 12?
cloes enough by ear? is the vacuum can dialed in ?
anyways. this is a familiar scene. someone throws big money at their favorite car....i suggest building a beater 318 car type, and figure out, what, does , what? that way your not scratching paint, on your beauty. no boring , just rering it yourself. let it burn a quart of oil if the bores are out of round. at least you took apart the engine, rebuilt the carb, played with distributors curves. you will have fun. it will be cheap. the lnowledge gained will be priceless.
or not, i dont know
i rememeber a ad stating 13.50 with the 4.10 trak pac / six pac.
how much fuel psi can the seats take? 6-7 , before they flow at bad times.
why race if it isnt tuned up ? you will have piston holes before you know it, and end up with a pretty box of rocks.
is your fuel line capable of filling a 1 gallon bucket in the required time?
my beater 4dr abody runs 14.8 with a 323 4 speed and 4.10's.
Posted By: burdar
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 01:24 PM
Quote:
how do you set the inital and the total without reworking the distributor?
What I did on my drag car with a 360 was get some timing tape from MP and install it on the damper. I disconnected the vacume advance and plugged the vacume line. I started the car and held the RPM's steady at 3500 or so. THe MP dist had total advance in by 3000 RPM so you have to hold the throttle above that. Using a timing light, I turned the dist. until it read 34 degrees. Small blocks like 32-34 and big blocks like 36-38 I think. I didn't worry about what the initial timing was. Some factory dist have the capability to advance the timing a lot more than a MP unit. In this case the initial timing could be too high. You would have to mix and match parts inside the dist to limit the mechanical advance.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 01:57 PM
Quote:
I still havent put a timing light on the engine either. Just got it close enough by ear.
No use doing anything else until you fix this!
Quote:
Also, what is QUIET high po fuel pump?
I'd think an aftermarket hp mechanical pump would be more than adequate for what you have.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 02:36 PM
you should be able to run 11's w/ a 10psi fuel pump. I have had freinds run 6 pack cars to 11.70-11.80 w/ 5/16 line and Carter street strip pumps. You have major tuning issues. You also have low compression. Those speed pros AT BEST are 9:1 I'd bet you are probably closer to 8.5:1 especailly if you are running Fel-Pro head gaskets. You should probably get a good timing light with a advance and curve you distrib. Have full advance come in at 2200rpm and start at 36* total. I'd bet w/ that compression 38* would probably work better.
I love the looks of a 6-pack and they can run like heck but they are tricky to tune (for regular 4bbl guys like me) If it dies from a dead stomp to rhomp I'm guessing it's going dead lean. Good luck.
P.S. Dump the vacuum advance.
Posted By: GreenBlurr
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 03:09 PM
Actually that outfit that makes those small super duper high flow horizontal piston fuel pumps FINALLY makes them for mopars now. They are about the same price as a clay smith. Don't get a holley mechanical pump. They are junk. If you are going to go with a normal style higher output mechanical pump go with a carter.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 03:31 PM
My chrome holley mechanical hv pump has been serving me well for 4 years. So I don't know what's "junk" about them.
Never ran out of fuel with it at WOT. 10psi of fuel pressure is too much for a carb. That much fuel pressure may overwhelm a needle and seat in a carb, flooding the poop out of it. My mech holley is supposed to be a 7.5psi pump, and my thermoquad likes it just fine.
First thing's first. Like was suggested, your distributor is an issue. #1 you want your distributor recurved. Stock distributor's usually have too much advance and they take too long to get all the advance to come in. Contact a place like FBO and have them recurve your distributor for you or sell you one curved to your needs. Other option is to buy an adjustable one and do it yourself.
#2 is your carbs. Professionally rebuild doesn't mean jack squat when it comes to how well they are tuned. Sure the rebuilder could have done a very nice job of rebuilding the carbs, but it's still your job to tune them, and 6-pack carbs are notoriously difficult to tune. I would either take it to a chassis dyno and have the guy there tune the car or invest in a wideband o2 setup and tune it myself. You need to have some way of knowing what's going on there.
You have a mild 440, a mild cam and mild gears in a heavy car. Expect performance to reflect that. That said, you should still be doing a heck of a lot better than 16's. I'd think more like low-mid 14's maybe touching 13's on a very very good run?
Posted By: moper
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 04:05 PM
You have discovered the difference between knowledge and effort an interest and cash. You got some of the rigth stuff, but it''s not working together. I've run mid 12s on stock mechanicals pushing maybe 6psi and sucking thru 5/16 line. So you could have a bunch of things. The car should be pretty easy mid 13s on the above average side. I think you need to either find someone to mentor you or work on it properly, or learn by going slowly and getting each thing to be "right". Judging by the "recurve without changing anything" question, I'd say you need a mentor or a good performance mechanic. There's just too many thigns it could be with what you've given. Get a cylinder pressure gage, a vacuum gage, and a PC near the car, and we can help diagnose it over the net.
Posted By: JRs_Charger
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 05:01 PM
This whole tuning thing is really not my cup of tea. I'm ASE certified in collision repair, but this is my first attempt at this.
I should have a bigger fuel pump here this week. I know it's running out of fuel. The fuel line is 3/8s all the way. The distributor is indeed a stock rebuild. I've never timed it, just run it close enough.
The bog under acceleration while crusing, does that sound like timing? It rattles like low octane gas, but it's running 93 octane. It used to run fine on 93 before the resto.
I'd like to think the compression is good, the engine prolly has 2000 miles since rebult in November, and that was the first trip to the drags.
So I need to find a good tuner.....
Posted By: Dave Watt
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 05:01 PM
Quote:
I've got a 10 psi autozone fuel pump that's starving the car for gas I'm sure. Seems like after 50 feet its out of fuel.
Actually, you're probably flooding the engine if you have 10psi going to a Holley carb. It needs to be regulated down to 7-7.5 maximum, otherwise you are blowing right past the needle and seat.
Secondly, you need a good advance timing light to set the total at 36 degrees. If you don't know how to do it, then find some guys at the dragstrip that will assist.
I bet just doing these two things will wake it up. Don't spend any other money until these two things are set properly or you are wasting time and money.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 05:02 PM
1. DEGREE IN the CAMSHAFT! I can't tell you how many times I've seen a poor running car where they "lined up the dots". Beg, borrow, or steal a degree kit and degree in the cam.
2. Make sure the distributor weights/springs are functioning properly. Disassemble the distributor and clean/grease the weights and at a minimum install Mr. Gasket part # 925B lightweight Mopar distributor springs. That'll get you in the ballpark.
3. Set the timing with a timing light and with the vacuum advance unplugged. Honestly, I never run vacuum advance anyway. With a 440 the gains in mileage are negligible with it hooked up. Set it at 34-36 total. I've found my 9.5:1 440 liked 36 total.
My similar un-trick combo would run 13.5's @ 104 so there should be no reason for you not to.
I think fuel delivery is the least of your problems but a Carter Street/strip pump at 7psi should do fine. Cheap, rebuildable, and works great up to 11 seconds.
Posted By: JRs_Charger
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 06:50 PM
I actually have a fuel pressure regulator installed that's left over from having the old holley blue. It's set on 7.5-8 right now, and I notice when it's just sitting still idling in park, I can rev the engine, and the guage will drop down to 4 or 5 psi. The needle never goes past 8psi. The 9-10 psi rating on the autozone fuel pump is highly optimistic I assume.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 08:15 PM
drive it and see how it does. Could you have a clogged fuel filter?
Posted By: rss
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 08:16 PM
Quote:
#2 is your carbs. Professionally rebuild doesn't mean jack squat when it comes to how well they are tuned.
Unless your carb builder installed the carbs on your car and then tuned them while the car was running, your carbs are not tuned.
Posted By: gomangoRTSE
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 08:26 PM
Simply put and without a doubt, your car should never and I mean never run 16.50s. Falling out of a tree it would run faster than that. Your problem lies in the timing and/or the carburators. Degreeing in your camshaft will not turn your car from 16.50 to high 14, or 13 or 12. Lining up the marks should be ok. You spend your time having someone work on the above and you will get into the low 14s I would think minimum. If you were having fuel delivery problems with the fuel pump you would probably feel it fall off and the front end dip because of fuel starvation. Remember, carbs (including vacuum issues) and distributor.
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 08:28 PM
How much did you pay for this autozone pump? Thats alot of pressure. Whats the volume on it rated at? Thats probably more important.
Bog at WOT can mean too much or not enough timing. Too much timing though doesn't really bog, its more like a feeling of holding the engine back. It could be pinging due to too much timing. Does it start easily?
Also who did your valve job on the heads? A poor valve job will really slow a car down. Are the seats hardened? What are you using for valve springs? Lifters replaced with the cam I assume? And I dont have any experience with regulators, but are you sure that its not the regulator thats malfunctioning?
As you've probably figured out from peoples responses so far TIMING IS IMPORTANT! The overall matching of the parts sounds pretty good though. haha
Posted By: JRs_Charger
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 09:34 PM
The fuel pump is a standard Master brand quiet universal replacement pump. The sticker on the pump says 9 psi. The computer said it was 6-7. Surely theres no way this little thing is putting 10 psi.
And aslo, with the fuel pressure regulator, it is sitting at 7-8 psi at idle. When the car was parked int he staging lanes idling, id' rev the engine a couple of times, and watch the pressure drop down to 4 or 5 psi.
All of these components are on a fresh resto. The car has been apart for the last 4 years and has really only been running since November.
The distributor is a stock reman I just bolted in. The vacuum advance is hooked up I believe.
As for the heads, I'm at work right now and gotta go, but i'll relply in a little while........
Posted By: W5Duster436
Re: my 440+6 Charger was outran by the tow vehicle.... - 06/11/08 10:15 PM
If you can sit at idle not moving and rev the engine and watch the fuel pressure drop then you have some serious issues.
First, put a timing light on it. This tuning by ear stuff is total BS. You probably have it running at 30 degrees initial. Get yourself a timing light and a vacuum gauge before you do anything else and start from there. Tune with the vacuum gauge to get the best vacuum at idle. I had to set my initial timing at 20 BTDC and 16 degrees of mechanical advance. With gas today the timing really has to be bumped up. What are the cam specs? That will make a drastic difference in where the initial timing needs to be. Also will affect which power valve is in the carb.
Listen to these guys and learn.
Second, what kind of volume is that pump rated for? It may be 9 psi and 3 gallons per hour.. There is no way you should just rev the engine and see the psi drop.
Posted By: mark7171
Re: sidebar - 06/11/08 10:45 PM
on a 6-8 psi mechanical pump do you consider a pressure regulator nessecary on a carb seat?
some say never use a reg on a stockish mechanical .
some say stabilize the psi so the seat closes at the right time.
whats the position here?
If it was a stock mechanical then no, but if it's a high volume strip pump then yes it would be wise. Holleys seem to typically handle 7.5 psi without blowing the needle off the seat. If have seen it happen though so it's probably good measure to just put one on and not worry about it.
Posted By: lokalik
Re: sidebar - 06/11/08 11:32 PM
i have 6pk on my 383. at first they seem hard to tune however, there is alot of info out there on how and what to do. mine was lean i went up 4 sizes in the center carb, from 62 to 66. adjusted the outboards mixture screws, 1/4 turn out. there is no bog no hesation. put different springs in the distributor total at 38deg by 3500. idles at 950rpm and pulls from idle with no bog or other issues. i get 15mpg with .510inch roller and eddy heads at 10.5-1. car made 300hp and 350tq on a shop dyno. point is i researched parts and learned about the carbs and timing. i'm sure that if i can do it you can also. just take your time and get some good info and help. also i run a carter hp with 5/16 line regulated at 6psi.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: sidebar - 06/11/08 11:36 PM
If your over fueling the engine you'll wash the rings out of it. Better get that under control before you're tearing it down again.
Posted By: Magnum
Re: sidebar - 06/12/08 02:18 AM
What was the tow vehicle?
Posted By: mark7171
Re: sidebar - 06/12/08 02:35 AM
thanks K5.
other guy-you'd have to do a bit of cranking to kill it that way?
Are you sure the end carbs are opening? Why do you think it is running out of fuel?
Posted By: moper
Re: sidebar - 06/12/08 04:32 PM
Just keep buying more new parts. It certainly helped during the build
. I know the differences in body and mechanical. I was ASE master for mechanical and engine performance. I also used to do full body jobs. The approaches to each are different. The closest relation would be making a Chinese fender fit perfectly on a Dodge pickup...lol. Sure, it attaches right off, but to look right, and make an average body look great, they need work. Right? Same thing, but to a MUCH greater extent, on mechanicals, and even more so on engines and performance engines. You know when a fender's bent. So it gets a new one. Well, your new parts are telling you somethings wrong. I would say diagnose it. I've seen cheapo fuel gages that are usless except at idle(Summit?). I've run a 175hp NOS plate, and a 400hp 340 off a stock AC Delco replacement fuel pump and 5/16 line. A friend just had an MP conversion shipped with a bad module. And always, they have to be tuned. The vacuum gage will tell you what it's doign at idle in terms of running. The compression gage will tell you if the cam's out. I think the cam's fine. It's all in the tuning. Which from what you are dscribing, is not what you usually are challenged to do at work. Tuning is not buying. That's pars replacement, and in engines, there's a ton to be done way before you get to that. If you think the fuel pressure is the cause, get a cheap diagnostic fuel pressure gage and connect it up, so it's visible as you drive. You'll see the presures then. With what you have, 5psi should be enough to feed it. If it idles at 7-8, and drops to 4-5 at full throttle, you should still be fine. Diagnose first, then buy if needed.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: sidebar - 06/12/08 05:00 PM
Quote:
Lining up the marks should be ok.
This is the most ignorant statement I think I've ever witnessed on this board.
Think the 440 that I "lined up the marks" on with the MP .528 mechanical and Cloyes true roller that was retarded 8* would've run right?!
Look folks, it's an easy procedure and it's not for getting that last tenth or 2 out of the motor. It's to assure that the parts were stamped/ground/assembled correctly. Spent the effort and the 15 minutes to do it right! For the money you spend on the rest of the motor isn't it worth it to make sure you don't make it into garbage on startup?! 
The mechanic that built the carbs put a vacuum test on the cabs and said that the end carbs were working. he races and builds pro mod dragsters, and was the champion this past year in a series I forget the name of, not to mention he builds 4 carbs on his race car, so I trust him with 3.
It just seems like the car is falling flat on its face. It will boil the tires for 50 feet, and then bog like its heat soaked, fuel starved, or something.
I forget the casting number of the heads, but they are early 70s truck heads. 452s I believe. They have hardened valve seats. i left the springs in from the 509 cam left in from the previous owner, because I plan to swap to aftermarket aluminum heads in the future.
The tow vehicle was a 4x4 F250 diesel with a 6 inch lift and some bullydog programming. How embarrasing.
The exhaust if it matters is factory hi po manifolds, with a new 2.5 inch exhaust, and flowmaster 40 series mufflers.
Also, I'm not just throwing parts at it, I've had this car for 10 years and have spent the last 4 building it. I am no mechanic, but I have spent every bit of free time and money to put this car together. I'm 24 working two jobs and just paid off a house, so it's hard to pay someone to work on what I could do. Although I do need some help here badly and appreciate the help here.
I know there are more questions, I'll try and awnser them here in a sec...
Quote:
Quote:
Lining up the marks should be ok.
This is the most ignorant statement I think I've ever witnessed on this board.
Think the 440 that I "lined up the marks" on with the MP .528 mechanical and Cloyes true roller that was retarded 8* would've run right?!
Look folks, it's an easy procedure and it's not for getting that last tenth or 2 out of the motor. It's to assure that the parts were stamped/ground/assembled correctly. Spent the effort and the 15 minutes to do it right! For the money you spend on the rest of the motor isn't it worth it to make sure you don't make it into garbage on startup?!
Silly rabbit, first of all HE isnt running a high lift mechanical camshaft. We put together street engines all the time without degreeing in the camshaft. Before U jump out and put your foot in your mouth, you need to compare apples to apples. No doubt there are advantages in some HP applications where degreeing in your camshaft is advantageous. I didnt say there was never ever a need to degree in a camshaft. But nearly stock engines get put together everyday all across the country that dont get have degreed in camshafts. Come on now, it wasnt the most ignorant posting you have ever ever seen in Moparts. Your a little full of yourself arent ya. Yea yea, go ahead my friend and degree in your camshaft and jump from 16.50s to 12s. Thats your problem. doh!!
Posted By: badblack68
Re: sidebar - 06/13/08 02:10 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Lining up the marks should be ok.
This is the most ignorant statement I think I've ever witnessed on this board.
Think the 440 that I "lined up the marks" on with the MP .528 mechanical and Cloyes true roller that was retarded 8* would've run right?!
Look folks, it's an easy procedure and it's not for getting that last tenth or 2 out of the motor. It's to assure that the parts were stamped/ground/assembled correctly. Spent the effort and the 15 minutes to do it right! For the money you spend on the rest of the motor isn't it worth it to make sure you don't make it into garbage on startup?!
Silly rabbit, first of all HE isnt running a high lift mechanical camshaft. We put together street engines all the time without degreeing in the camshaft. Before U jump out and put your foot in your mouth, you need to compare apples to apples. No doubt there are advantages in some HP applications where degreeing in your camshaft is advantageous. I didnt say there was never ever a need to degree in a camshaft. But nearly stock engines get put together everyday all across the country that dont get have degreed in camshafts. Come on now, it wasnt the most ignorant posting you have ever ever seen in Moparts. Your a little full of yourself arent ya. Yea yea, go ahead my friend and degree in your camshaft and jump from 16.50s to 12s. Thats your problem. doh!!
I disagree. I bought a new sealed in the factory box Mopar purple 440 6 pack restoration camshaft. My engine builder checks EVERY single part new or used. Well it`s a good thing he measured it before he installed it. It turned out the person who boxed up this cam had put a 590 solid lifter cam in this box. Right box, right part number WRONG cam! Hmmm, a solid lifter cam with hydraulic lifters. I`ve always degreed every single cam I ever installed no matter if it was a stock sized cam or a performance cam. I can just imagine what would have happened when first firing this engine if my engine builder just installed this cam and never checked it and then just lined up the dots on the timing gears....KABOOM! So, it`s not a point of being full of yourself, it`s the difference between a shade tree mechanic and a professional mechanic and for the 15 minutes it takes to degree a camshaft you`d be crazy not to do it. Listen to the guys on here. Buy yourself an advance timing light, a vacuum guage, and a compression tester. Then if need be, get a fuel pressure guage. If you can`t afford to buy these tools I`m sure someone at the track or one of your other friends would be more than willing to help you. You`ll never fix your car by just throwing more money at it. Something is definately out of whack with your car. Diagnose it, adjust it, then enjoy the heck out of it once you`ve solved your problem.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: sidebar - 06/13/08 02:42 PM
Quote:
So, it`s not a point of being full of yourself, it`s the difference between a shade tree mechanic and a professional mechanic and for the 15 minutes it takes to degree a camshaft you`d be crazy not to do it.
Funny thing is, I consider myself a shade tree mechanic but I'd NEVER put together even a stock motor without degreeing it in anymore.
It has nothing to do with having high end parts! It's widely known that there was a run of Cloyes roller timing chains out there that were mis-stamped.
How many guys have cars running poorly out there because of this?
..and yes, it could be the difference between 16.50's and 12's.
Quote:
We put together street engines all the time without degreeing in the camshaft.
Wow, hope that luck holds out for you.... 
A stock fuel pump should be good for 13sec. 1/4s. Ronnie Sox got
13.00@111.52 with, of course, a 4-speed in a stock 6-pack Roadrunner. My junk yard 440 in a '69 Coronet with the junk yard fuel pump and Thermoquad that came with it runs
14.20@98. If you're running out of fuel, something's really wrong. Pressure means nothing. You can have thousands of PSI, but little flow. Think of those car lighter tire pumps that have a 300PSI rating. How long does it take for those to fill up a tire? You need to know the pressure under load at WOT. As for degreeing in a cam, the last cam I installed was 9deg. off. Glad I checked it.