Richmond 5-spd vs 6-spd ROD

Wondering if anyone has experience or info about either of these two transmissions.

The 5 speed can be shifted at higher RPM than the 6 speed with the OD gear, I'm talking about
normal synchros, not a faceplated deal, or other tooth engagement mods.

Torque capacity is evidently not the limiting factor with either because the gears are so big,
it is more the fact that the gears are really too massive for the size of the synchros (what I read anyway).

Everyone seems to like the T-56 of whatever version. It looks to me like the T-56 does have better synchros
than the Richmond, but the Richmond case and components are bigger and stronger.

Richmond says don't shift the 6-speed above 6500 but they don't say that about the 5-speed,
now the newer 5-speed OD, I have not read much about.

Every Car I've driven with an aftermarket 6 speed manual seems as though the sixth gear is a waste. I suppose if one were doing the Silver state Classic or similar the 6th gear might be useful. Maybe they've updated the ratios ?

Your not driving fast enough.....

I had a Mini Cooper with a 6-speed. After the second day, I NEVER used 5th. the difference in ratio meant only about a 200 rpm drop, and essentially no loss in power. That and the 4-5 shft bashed my knuckles into my Yeti cup and moved it enough to buy the passenger seat heat and turn it on. After discovering that, it was 4-6...

An OEM based transmission is going to be better than an aftermarket based transmission. The aftermarket just doesn't have the money to compete with OEM engineering requirements.

Hello Andy,
What engineering requirements are not met with the Richmonds ?

my brother says 5th and 6th gear in his 2010 challenger are useless at anything below 120mph.
i asked him how he knew this, and he just chuckled. knowing him, i'll wager my monthly check he has "been there-done that."

These anecdotes, what they are suggesting to me is that these factory transmissions were not "properly engineered".

They're engineered perfectly for their purpose: to maximize fuel economy on the EPA drive cycle. It's the same reason we've got 8-9-10 speed automatics instead of 3 speeds. Go back to the Corvette that had the solenoid that kicked the 1-2 shift to fourth gear in very specific circumstances, those being exactly how the EPA fuel economy test is run. VW took it a step too far when they changed the engine parameters when the computer sensed the EPA cycle in progress. The fact that nobody in the real world drives the way the drive cycle works means they seem crazy to those us that live and drive in the real world.

The Richmonds are not designed for a particular car in which the Engines power band, gearing, tire size, weight, torque etc. are all know factors. So the have to "guess" or pick what they think will be applicable to 100's if not 1000's of different applications.

Well I do appreciate the input but this is not going where I hoped it would.

I was hoping to find people who have driven Richmond 5 or 6 speeds, in whichever kind of street car.

The gear ratios is not an issue at all.

I do recognize that these trannies don't easily fit in A- or B- bodies, but that's still not the topic.

I'm interested in shift quality and hi-RPM shift capability.

How high can you reliably shift a synchro A833 ? I think they are the same rings used in the Richmond.

I bought a Doug Nash 5 speed for my Coronet back in 1988 so I was one of the first to have a 5 speed in a street driver Mopar.

How would you rate or comment the shifting compared to:

-T56

-A833

My Doug Nash is very clunky. Shifts like a tractor.

Thank you. Always appreciate your input and help.

What shifter mechanism do you have?

I have a Long Shifter that came with the Richmond I got. Does that make any difference?

Or is that the shifter everyone uses?

I got mine in a parts deal and it’s all still new in the box.

I have driven both in a multitude of different cars. The normal shifting is fine in both, little experience with the high RPM part (I don't abuse customers cars) but the few I have had to shifted fine at 5.5-6K. Again, these were very limited experiences and only shifts between 1st and 2nd.
In every case 6th gear was IMO useless.
I have shifted plenty of 833's at 6500, usually at WOT fanning the clutch never having an issue

I might also comment that in all cases with high RPM shifts we had installed the trans AND DIALED IN the bellhousing / scatter shield

m y friend installed a richmond 5 speed in a 71 challenger convert with a 604 hemi about 1998.
it was a feature car in Mopar collectors guide in may 2000.
we had to do a fair amount of cutting and welding ti install it.

i have a T56 magnum xl 6 speed trans in my supercharged 800rwhp 08 bullitt mustang.
the shifting differences are night and day between the 2.

I have the Hurst shifter with mine.
I've known other guys with Doug Nash (or Richmond) 5 speeds that also say they are very clunky. From what I've heard the issue is that Doug Nash used synchros that were too small for the weight of the 5 speed main cluster. Evidently there are people who now know how to fix that problem but I've never tried to have mine fixed.
I do have a buddy who got rid of his Richmond 5 speed and replaced it with a T56 based 6 speed and he says the difference in shifting is amazing. He used to tell me that his Richmond shifted okay but now he knows that it didn't. He was just used to it.
I don't know if Richmond ever fixed the clunky shifting design that they inherited from Doug Nash. I doubt that they would tell you on the phone so a person would need to speak to an independent transmission expert. The little bit of research I did on the subject in the past led me to believer that Richmond never really fixed the issue.

If you google "Richmond 5 speed shifting problems" you'll get pages and pages of hits. Lots of complaints on the subject and they all sound like my transmission. Mine shifts just fine if you are driving around town but if you try to bang gears then it just isn't happening. It takes X amount of time to shift regardless of how hard you pull on the lever. Pulling harder doesn't make it go faster, it shifts when it is ready to shift. This video gives a pretty good explanation of the issue but I've never taken mine apart to try the fix. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UnFDaAdBaM

I have a Richmond 5-speed that shifted hard but I always thought it was the Street-twin clutch . I pulled it and took the gears to Liberty's and had them faceplated now it shifts like butter at 6500 RPM. I have done the mods outlined in the link Andy mentioned to few Richmond transmissions and it makes a big difference in the shifting. The good lube like Penzoil Syncromesh oil works well too and stay away from synthetic lube because it doesn't let the syncro rings "grab" the cones on the gears.

Gus

I don’t have too much info on a friends Nash in a street-race 68 Camero (1970s) , 331 cu in modified production engine from Rhere & Morrison. Very high RPM engine, never really knew how fast because he bagged all the time looking for suckers money. 6.50s in the eight at will. Point is he never had a problem power shifting that trans in the 7500-8500 or more range. Can’t think of R&M drivers name right now who did the heads.

If it was an early Doug Nash box shifting that high RPM there were no syncros in it . I'm not sure when they came out with the "street" 4+1 syncronized deal but I'm pretty sure it came along in the mid 80's

Gus

I have a richmond/Nash 5 speed in my 442 with 2.75 rear gears. WIth the deep 1st gear, it works out very nice. I never wished it had another gear. It is kind of a clunky shifting thing, though.

The 6 speed in my hot rod is a t56 magnum 6 speed with 2 overdrives. The big cammed Hemi dosen't like to cruise under 2300 rpm. With 30" tires and 4.57 rear gears, I can't get it into 6th until 70 mph. 5 gears would be enuff.

Never rode with him so you could be right. He could drive a guys F/modified real good

I've seen a bunch of Doug Nash boxes behind high winding SB engines over the years. Modified cars would shift at 9000 or 10,000 with no problem. But, I'm pretty sure those boxes had all been reworked and prepped by experts. The street 4+1 box couldn't be powershifted right out of the box. I don't know about the current Richmond 5 speed boxes but based on the little bit I've heard I don't think they are much better than the original Doug Nash boxes. I don't think Richmond ever changed the syncro design, at least they hadn't changed it a few years ago when I last looked into it.

I watched the video. His explanation of gear weight may have some relevance but I doubt it.

It is RPM and clutch disc weight and the number of teeth on the syncro and gear that make them not shift at rpm. You can easily remedy this by slick shifting the sliders, gears and syncros. Then reassemble the box with all the parts.

It will shift smooth and clean at whatever RPM you have the balls for.

I have driven many 833's. With every clutch you can think of. Slick shifted too. It's removing every 2nd tooth on speed gear. Slick shifted opens shift quality and high rpm needs but that is IT. Slow shifting around town is not happening. No overdrive and has external linkage.

TKO500's are like old truck transmissions. They got a bit of respect in the hot rod world due to their torque ratings but reading your request AND all the replies. The answer is T56. AndyF mentions it will go in when it's ready. A T56 is always ready. It literally feels like there is nothing to wait for. It slips into every gear no matter how slow or fast you pull the shifter. No matter how slow you pull it in gear, once it's in the gate it almost falls in. Even neutral to first, instantly stops the input shaft and it falls in.
These are things NO formulas or bullet point advertising can tell you.

The only video I have to demonstrate my opinion was right after we installed the trans. I still was looking for higher/sooner disc release and we still had a super tall rear gear, 3.27. I was also a little shy on the 1 to 2 since the tires spin a bit.

https://youtu.be/OmY__bhaR20

https://youtu.be/KzTdXe9GU5g

I drive my slick shifted box everywhere. You just grind every other tooth off the syncros and put it back together with the struts and springs and send it.

MadScientist,
Are you grinding just the synchro, or also the slider and the gear ?
How high an RPM can you shift ?

Syncro, slider and gears. I just don’t do first gear because there is no need to do that gear. So it saves some time behind the grinder.

Then you just assemble the box like a stocker with the struts and springs and send it. In a pinch I had to use my street box in my race car and I didn’t have time to pull the syncros and struts. So I bolted it in. I was shifting at 8500 with a Soft Lock clutch.

I am not against slick shifting because of some advice from a grandpa. I tried it twice and did not like it for normal driving. It does make an 833 easy to shift fast but I found slow shifting was not smooth or quiet.

Post a video of slow shifting your slick shift. It was 30 years ago. My memory is not clear.

Did you leave the syncros, dogs and springs in when you did it? You do that and they will shift like any other box with syncros.

It was over 25 years ago. Do not remember the details but I think the instructions came from the DC manual.

Any vid of slow shifting a slick shift?

I would like to be able to shift from 1-2, from 2-3, and maybe from 3-4 at 7000~~7200 RPM,
I want to keep the synchros and don't mind a slightly slower shift, but I'm not sure
if these Richmond trannys like the RPM to shift. My goals to achieve this would include
"perfect" bellhousing alignment and clutch adjustment.
And, evidently, not using a synthetic fluid.

No video, but my wife drives the car. If you did it by the DC book they tell you to leave the syncros, dogs and springs out. You can do that if it’s a dedicated drag car. If you want to drive it like normal on the street, you grind every other tooth off the syncro just like you do the gears and put it all back together like it is stock. It will shift like it did stock, only cleaner and smoother because the syncros are still in there. And, I never ever take any teeth off of first gear or the first gear side of the 1-2 slider or the first gear syncro. That’s just more work and it doesn’t need to be done.

As I just posted, you can slick shift the Richmond just like a Chrysler box. They don’t like to shift at higher RPM’s due to clutch disc weight and too many teeth on the gears, sliders and syncros. So slick shift it like a Chrysler box and do the 2,3 and 4 syncros too. Then put it back together like it’s stock and drive it.

MadScientist,

I am very grateful for your input on this thread !

I can see that cutting off every other engagement tooth on the slider mechanism would double the time window for the shift engagement.
It seems it would not affect the synchro - gear cone holding ability. Then once the slider is on the gear, you are IN GEAR.
If the slight back angle is present on the teeth then it will stay IN GEAR, even on decel.

Is there a strength or longevity decrease on the engagement mechanism ?

Even f you disengage the clutch properly during the shift, you now have half the tooth area to perform the engagement.
There is always some "slamming" involved in this process.

Too bad they don't make slider components with, say, 1.5 times the tooth spacing but 1.5 times bigger teeth.

Too bad they don't make slider components with, say, 1.5 times the tooth spacing but 1.5 times bigger teeth.

They do when you install Liberty's Pro-shifted gears and sliders, but if I were doing that I would just have the gears Face-plated instead because they last a lot longer and shift like lightning

Gus