Moparts
I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help
Posted By: whiplash
I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 04:11 PM
I think I know what I need to do before I post this, but want some verification right/wrong:
383, 67 coronet, 727, had tranny rebuilt 15,000 miles ago, had 2400 rpm stall converter, NO PROBLEMS.
Changed to 3500 10" street fighter (please keep TCI comment to yourself, thanks), and trans will not go into reverse or drive without first revving it in nuetral.
Put in new manual valve with hole to charge pump in park, things a little better but still have to rev it if the car is shut off for more than 1 minute.
Always have to rev it over 2000 rpm for it to work, other wise no drive or reverse.
I personally think the converter is JUNK, or at least the snout is off spec.
I want a new converter, but really don't want to pay a bizzilion $$$ for a custom race unit when I just need a good street converter.
Is the converter the problem here????
Who should I call???
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 05:18 PM
are you saying you physically can't shift it into gear w/o reving it? or that it doesn't move until you rev it? you should be able to shift it no matter what the rpm is. Pump ok? If it was fine b4 the converter and now it's not...I would assume it would be the converter. I'm not sure but I think not all 727's use the same converter. I'd probably cease driving untill you can figure it out. You could lose the netire trans. If/When you yank it put it next to your old one and see if the hubs are the same. Then go get a mopar 175K for $140...the flash to about 3k. Good luck.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 06:49 PM
Well if it's a 3500 stall convertor then..............
Posted By: whiplash
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 07:22 PM
Yes, I'm saying that I need to rev the car for a second or two in N or D befoer the trans will "move".
Once I've done that and the car remains running, the trans shifts fine drives great.
I guess it is bleeding down?
67, have you had any experiences with the 175k? what diameter? 3000 stall behind your 440? Anyone else recommend the mopar 175k for a 450-475 SC,EFI 383?
What's the part #?
And Mopey, I know what your getting at, and no.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 07:52 PM
I have many trans woes but never a "bleed down" a 3500 stall won't move the car well untill it hits 3000rpm. I use the 175K in this and it is great. I have had 0 problems and it sends me down the track well. It flashes at about 2800-3000...it's rated for 2200-2400 but it does much better. # of my friends run them now along w/ the Summit cam...hahaha. The part number is 175k I think? Not sure how big it is. 10-11 inch?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 07:55 PM
both of my slushboxes do the same thing. my 65 will drain back in a few hours, the 69 a few days. i was told once what the problem was but didn't understand. i just start my cars in neutral. typical torqueflite problem
.
Posted By: Paul_Fancsali
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 08:04 PM
Chrysler used to have a one way valve for a very similar condition on there over drive autos a while back. I had several 360 3500s that would not go move until the motor was revved up. The valve in the trans line solved the problem except where the frt pump or convertor were the culprit
Posted By: whiplash
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 08:34 PM
Thanks guys, so it doesn't look like it is the convertors fault, just a normal thing huh?
Maybe the "looser" convertor is making things seems worse because I have to rev the engine higher to get the fluid moving?
Paul, can you tell me more about the anti-drainback valve? PN? installation?
Does anyone think this is the convertors fault? Thanks again...
Posted By: eightlitermopar
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 08:48 PM
I had two trannies do this to me, and I don't really blame the converter... Mine it happened right before they went out and needed a rebuild. one tranny only had 800 miles on it. (bad seal in it). Good luck but it may either be a stuck valve body. try changing the fluid first...that helped me for a little while..
Posted By: Montclaire
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 09:01 PM
Obviously it IS the converter if things were fine before you swapped it out. There are a few problems that can cause what you're describing, none of which are a problem if you let the car idle in neutral during warm-up. If what you want is a good street converter, a 3500 stall is not the right piece for you. Go with a stock piece for a 426 hemi. It stalls around 2800 and is an excellent street performance piece behind a big block.
Posted By: RThunder
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 09:09 PM
The loose converter should not cause what you are describing. Are you sure you got the new converter set in the pump the whole way and it didn't slip back out when you installed it. I have seen this happen before but don't ask how.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 09:18 PM
Montclair,
I know what you are saying, which is why I said what I did in the opening post, I thought it was the convetotr as well, still miight be, just wondering if it is "normal" for a high(er) stall convertor to make the issue worse. I've had this converotr in the car for at least 10,000 miles and it hasn't gotten any better or worse, its just annoying to have to rev the car to 2000 rpm everytime I start it. this is my daily, go to work, revv it, go to lunch, rev it, go back to work, rev it, go home, rev it, stop and get milk, rev it, get it?
A word (actually a few) on 3500 rpm stall on the street, I loved it with the NA 383, now that the car is SC, I think it stalls too high as the boost really comes on around 3000 rpm and the convertor flashes in the 4000 rpm range. I'd like it to tighten it up at least 5-800 rpm, but don't want to spend $700 on a custom convertor. Do you think the 175k (hemi?) convertor will do that?
Thunder, I do no think the convertor slipped out as it is bolted to the flex plate just fine..
Posted By: Montclaire
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 09:28 PM
Quote:
I'd like it to tighten it up at least 5-800 rpm, but don't want to spend $700 on a custom convertor. Do you think the 175k (hemi?) convertor will do that?
I can't comment on the quality of new MP converters, mine is/was a NOS piece made by the original manufacturer. Can't recall the info off the top of my head, but it's an original hemi converter that was bought ages ago. It does indeed stall at 2800, and that's 700rpm less that what yours is rated at, so....
Posted By: Montclaire
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 09:30 PM
BTW, I'd figure a manual valve body on a daily driver more annoying than letting the car warm up for a minute. Didn't MA cover drain-back recently?
Posted By: whiplash
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 09:51 PM
no, I definately do not want a manual valve body. What issue of MA was that covered in?
Posted By: Montclaire
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 09:58 PM
Quote:
no, I definately do not want a manual valve body. What issue of MA was that covered in?
I'll have to look. I think it was recent, but I read a whole stack of old ones the other night, so who knows...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 10:32 PM
my 65 coronet has a 1966 street hemi converter' and my 69 r/t has the stock 11 3/4, both have drain back issues. 1996 ram 1500 truck, 318 auto, had the same issue. rick allison (a&a trans.) told me once it was a bushing (or something like that) that was loose or needed replaced. anyhow i didn't understand the technocolities
.
Posted By: Montclaire
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 10:44 PM
Alot of times it's due to a warped pump flange. It's really not a big deal, just plumb in a valve.
Posted By: Von
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 10:59 PM
I do believe you are experiencing "morning sickness". My 727 didnt do it before it was rebuilt, now it does. I have had two converters in it and it does the same as you describe with either converter, one a 3500 stall TCI 10 inch. Anyway, here is a link to a valve that is supposed to cure the problem. I dont know yet as I havent installed it, but its supposed to.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&tc=photo&item=7959100006&category=33727Sorry for the ebay link, but thats the only place I can find the info. It doesnt spell it out in this ad, but Ive spoken with another tranny guy was selling the same kit who said that the kit "will" fix the converter drainback or morning sickness problem. Hope this helps.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/10/05 11:33 PM
where does that valve go? inside the trans or ???
Posted By: moparx
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 12:04 AM
the trans-go valve is the replacement manual control valve. this goes in the vb.
Posted By: 4speeds4me
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 12:08 AM
NAPA sells a kit that will fix this if the problem is drainback. It's ~30 bucks and takes ~1 hour to install...
Posted By: 70Challengerse
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 12:23 AM
Quote:
the trans-go valve is the replacement manual control valve. this goes in the vb.
Excellent kit,I install in every rear wheel drive chrysler trans,,904,727,42RE,46RE,RH etc....
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 12:38 AM
That looks like the manual valve inside the valve body.Sonnax makes a line pressure regulator valve with a hole drilled in it to keep the torque converter charged all the time.
Posted By: 70Challengerse
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 12:50 AM
You can drill thru the casting and save your money too..approx .040 bit..
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 12:59 AM
Pulled out Sonnax catalog,here are the part#s and names
Manual valve(same as EBAY link)#22771-09
Lube regulated Pressure regulator Valve#22771A-02K
1-800-843-2600
www.sonnax.comDon`t quite know if it will work on mid 60`s valve body though.
Posted By: 1MYTGTX
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 01:11 AM
Im assuming this valve will not be for a manual valve body? Will it??
I hate the fact that my shift selector seal leaks after a day of sitting.....
Posted By: moparx
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 03:02 AM
trans-go includes this valve in their manual vb kit. it should work for others.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 02:27 PM
Thanks for the relpies guy, we're getting somewhere!!!
I think I'm a little confused. I have the Sonnax manual valve that has the hole in it to keep the fluid charged in Park, but this only helps the situation, I still have to revv the engine to around 2000 rpm in park or Nuetral in order to get things going when I put the gear selector in Drive.
What else do I need???? What is the sntidrainback valve, where does it go?
How do I save $$$ with a 0.040" drill bit?
Thanks!!
Posted By: fox
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 05:47 PM
The Sonnax valve you have is a check valve set-up. It allows oilo flow in one way only. Drilling the hole will help charge the converter on the start up but increases the drain back when not running.
Don't do both!!
You most likely have too much clearance with the pump bushing to converter snout.
With any converter changes you should check this clearance to be sure.
And you may have a bad converter. Especially from that company.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 06:25 PM
"The Sonnax valve you have is a check valve set-up. It allows oilo flow in one way only. Drilling the hole will help charge the converter on the start up but increases the drain back when not running."
I had a feeling that would happen...
"You most likely have too much clearance with the pump bushing to converter snout.
And you may have a bad converter. "
I was afraid of this, I knew I should've mic'd the snout when I swapped converters. For Reference, what should the dimension be? Any way to fix a too small snout (sleeve)?
Why do I have to revv the motor for the fluid to start flowing? Am I just impatient?
Thanks again!!
Posted By: 70Challengerse
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 06:47 PM
The Sonnax valve you have is a check valve set-up. It allows oilo flow in one way only. Drilling the hole will help charge the converter on the start up but increases the drain back when not running
I understand that it helps charged the convertor,the drain back problem is this because the convertor is for racing applications? I have never have had a problem with the hole being drilled with a stock application,and with removing the factory drain back valve in the lines??With installing the new manuel valve.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 07:47 PM
77, are you talking about drilling the hole in the manual valve itself? If not, where?
The Converter is a TCI street fighter, not so sure its a race piece...
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 08:15 PM
You can put a check valve in the coolant line, this
is done on the new trans now, you can get the line
with the valve in it at your local dealer
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 08:48 PM
Quote:
trans-go includes this valve in their manual vb kit. it should work for others.
transgo includes that valve in their NON MANAUL VB kits , TF-1 and TF-2 , the TF-3 manual valve i am pretty certian is different ...
Posted By: 1MYTGTX
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 09:30 PM
Quote:
Quote:
trans-go includes this valve in their manual vb kit. it should work for others.
transgo includes that valve in their NON MANAUL VB kits , TF-1 and TF-2 , the TF-3 manual valve i am pretty certian is different ...
So John are you saying there is a "fix" for a manual VB? I have the Turbo Action RMVB
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/11/05 10:05 PM
like mr.pbody said, new trucks have a check valve in the line to help prevent the trans cooler from draining back. that might be another good idea although i heard that this check valve goes bad and will ruin a trans from getting blocked up completely.
whiplash, long ago i bought a GER converter that would move my car untill 3000 rpms. driving on the street like this was a nightmare and i looked like a mental case launching the car every time i pulled out. good converters will not slip like that but will still flash to their intended stall. the converter could be your problem.
Posted By: 70Challengerse
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/12/05 01:38 AM
Just like sixpackgut said ,to a point,most all new vehicles have the drain back valve,including 94-up jeeps,sorry my opinion,junk,we remove all one way valves,The lines get clogged and the valves clog,I don't do alot of racing trans anymore,gave up on them,only true freinds understand them,yes they do break,convertor drainback,been around since the trans was built,back in the 60's,still don't understand why Chrysler has the only trans that flows in neutral,even the new chrysler,Daimler trans does the same,yes there are kits to prevent this,and or help!I have installed about 300 and they do work. Racing ,I don't know, are you sure like sixpacknut,said, could poss be your convertor....have seen that many of times ,esp with an inferior convertor...
Posted By: 70Challengerse
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/12/05 02:02 AM
As far as drilling a hole,I always drill thru the channel on the throttle pressure valve,yes it does aid in the charging of the convertor and in a little discharge, not enough to cause this problem,like I said ,this has always been a problem,with Chyrsler,ask Kunkle,I'd love to hear his opinion,as I'm always learning,the problem is ,I'm thinking about 50 of them instead of 1,so man
y new trans to remember...hahaha
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/12/05 07:41 PM
Converter drainback and converter fill are two different issues. As long as there is sufficient clearance for fluid to flow between components there will be a path for the converter to drain.
The fill issue is in the design of of the manual valve which is a holdover from the old pushbutton days when there was no Park position in the pushbutton quadrant. With the Park position added, the manual valve moves in one more notch and uncovers a path for line pressure to flow directly from the valve body to the sump. Drilling a hole between channels to aid converter fill won't keep up with the flow volume lost through the manual valve. The answer is to add a segment to the manual valve that closes off the escape path in Park. This is what the TransGo and Sonnax valves do. (And what Ma Mopar shoulda done 40 years ago)
With the modified manual valve installed there will still be converter drainback but the converter will fill in Park. The problem in the original post doesn't sound like a converter fill problem, it sounds more like a pressure problem. Low pressure at low rpms would explain the need to rev the motor before the trans engages.
It takes more pressure to engage a component than it does to keep it engaged so, if pressure is the problem, the trans will stay in gear even after the pressure drops with engine rpm.
I would suggest hooking up a gauge to the line pressure test port to see what the pressure is.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/12/05 08:11 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
trans-go includes this valve in their manual vb kit. it should work for others.
transgo includes that valve in their NON MANAUL VB kits , TF-1 and TF-2 , the TF-3 manual valve i am pretty certian is different ...
So John are you saying there is a "fix" for a manual VB? I have the Turbo Action RMVB
no i was correcting moparx , the tf-3 , full manual kit i am pretty sure comes wit ha different manual valve , for reverse pattern ? and not the yoyo kit that transgo supplies with the tf-1 and -2 kits .
fyi the new trucks still have a drainback issue , but its not as bad .
Posted By: beepsalot
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/12/05 08:15 PM
the problem is both. theres trans kits that will fight the drainback problem, i've had 2 rebuilt, both kits containing an update for the drain back. the new converter prolly has a weak converter pump in it, so, you prolly just aggrevated the situation. my 2 cents.....
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/12/05 08:16 PM
Quote:
Converter drainback and converter fill are two different issues. As long as there is sufficient clearance for fluid to flow between components there will be a path for the converter to drain.
The fill issue is in the design of of the manual valve which is a holdover from the old pushbutton days when there was no Park position in the pushbutton quadrant. With the Park position added, the manual valve moves in one more notch and uncovers a path for line pressure to flow directly from the valve body to the sump. Drilling a hole between channels to aid converter fill won't keep up with the flow volume lost through the manual valve. The answer is to add a segment to the manual valve that closes off the escape path in Park. This is what the TransGo and Sonnax valves do. (And what Ma Mopar shoulda done 40 years ago)
With the modified manual valve installed there will still be converter drainback but the converter will fill in Park. The problem in the original post doesn't sound like a converter fill problem, it sounds more like a pressure problem. Low pressure at low rpms would explain the need to rev the motor before the trans engages.
It takes more pressure to engage a component than it does to keep it engaged so, if pressure is the problem, the trans will stay in gear even after the pressure drops with engine rpm.
I would suggest hooking up a gauge to the line pressure test port to see what the pressure is.
good point john , i wonder if its a seal or other problem with his rear clutch ? or one of the seal rings for the rear clutch circuit is bad , brokemn , or leakage past the VB to case surface ?
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/12/05 11:58 PM
Since the problem occurs in both forward and reverse that pretty much eliminates the rear clutch as the culprit.
Valve body or some other leakage is a possibility, it appears to be a pressure problem. A test gauge is the next step.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/13/05 04:20 PM
Thanks john,
I'm glad you posted, what you are saying makes sense, and it should you being the trans guru
I have the factory service manual for the car (somewhere), will it show the procedure for testing the trans fluid pressure? Any specific tips?
Alittle further explanation of the problem:
When I start the car, if I do not rev the motor, just put the car in D or R, nothing happens, I'm afraid to rev it in D or R when this happens, so I put it in P or N, rev it to 2000 rpm for 5 sec or less, back to D or R, and witht he car at idle, everthing is fine (ie I have to keep my foot on the brake because the car wants to creep)
So, we still at checking pressures, right?
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/13/05 09:20 PM
Perplexing problem.
At first it does sound like a drainback problem but the fact that reving it in both Park and Neutral allows it to engage at idle is puzzling; reving it in Park shouldn't have much effect on converter fill time.
I would still do a pressure check under the same conditions you describe, check the pressure on initial startup and after a 5 second rev in N or P.
Posted By: Montclaire
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/13/05 10:51 PM
I had thought that the pump ran slower in park, if at all. That's why it charges quicker in neutral.
Posted By: fox
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/14/05 12:42 AM
The pump runs in direct relation to the motor.
Motor turns 1 rev the pump does too.
I still think it is a fill up the converter issue.
As John says, check the pressures.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/14/05 03:03 AM
Quote:
reving it in Park shouldn't have much effect on converter fill time
John,
Even if I have the Sonnax manual valve?
I thought that was supposed to "charge" the convertor in park?
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/14/05 08:07 PM
You stated earlier that you have the Sonnax regulator valve but not the manual valve. The regulator valve only keeps the converter charged, it doesn't speed up the fill time.
Do you have both? If so, the fill time would be the same in N or P.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 03/14/05 08:18 PM
John,
I changed the valve that connects to the gear selector, I'm assuming that's teh manual valve?
Posted By: 52savoy
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 04/22/16 10:32 PM
Unless I missed it, one thing that has been over looked is the time period he is talking about. One minute or so is different than a few days or weeks.
My '77 Dodge truck doesn't want to move after it sits for a week. I wait patiently and shift the tranny from park to 1st to neutral to reverse and THEN repeat..
Sonnax valves will fix it.. less than 30 bucks each.
Sonnax
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 04/22/16 11:29 PM
11 year old thread.
Posted By: mikemee1331
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 04/22/16 11:37 PM
done that myself a couple of times doing searches and then forgetting the thread is not 'real time'!
Posted By: 52savoy
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 04/23/16 04:23 AM
That's funny. I saw the month and assumed it was last month. I guess things on the internet just get better with time
Posted By: terzmo
Re: I've had it with 727 fluid drainback....help - 04/25/16 01:24 AM
I have a 66 trans in my 67 R/T and the 66 has a different pump shaft. It's been gone through and has a 3500 TCI converter,shift kit and if sitting for a few days....it moves like the clutch is slipping in a 4 speed the first time it moves...then ok. I just live with it but IF I pull the tranny again,I'm changing the shaft so I can have a better selection of converters