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. Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain

Posted By: MidPenMopar

. Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 01:58 PM

Just recently I have noticed a really awful sound coming from my roadrunner's drive train. All has been well and the car has been running perfectly for months. Just last week I noticed when I accelerate I get an awful noise like nuts and bolts falling off the car. I stopped and checked on the road and all was well. This has happened a few times as of late and I thought maybe the fan was loose and hitting the radiator as that is what it sounds like, but all is tight and no problems there. Yesterday it made that same noise right at start up too, but only for a second and went right away

The car runs perfect and drives fine so it's a very intermittent noise at best. I have crawled underneath and checked and retightend everything I can think of. I thought something might be loose and rattling around.

The noise is like rocks being thrown in the fan.

So any ideas on what to look for next?

Like I said the car operates perfectly except for once in awhile when it makes that ugly noise only on hard acceleration or at startup.


Thanks for any ideas.

Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 02:02 PM

Check your torque converter bolts. Did you take down the driveshaft and check the u joints??
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 02:14 PM

Quote:

Check your torque converter bolts. Did you take down the driveshaft and check the u joints??




No i have only visually checked the driveshaft and u-joints and all looked fine. I recently had a new 4-speed automatic installed though and i got all new u-joints and a new driveshart. I can pull the inspection cover and check the bolts on the torque convertor if that is what you mean.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 02:30 PM

I've had cat. converters get noisy when they die, I wonder if mufflers do the same thing?
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 02:34 PM

Quote:

I've had cat. converters get noisy when they die, I wonder if mufflers do the same thing?



You know that crossed my mind too. I have the DYNOMAX mufflers that came with my TTI exhaust system. Think one of them came apart inside??
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 02:36 PM

Torque converter bolts for sure, had the same thing once! Make sure you loc-tite them down too or it will keep coming back!
Posted By: aarcuda

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 02:43 PM

can you narrow it down a bit for the location? youve got the fan torque converter all the way back to the muffler so far. i need a smaller area.

so lets see, bad clutch fan? detonation??? hd mufflers come apart- rap on it and see if you hear a tinny sound). exhaust pipe rattling against the frame? torque converter bolts loos (although when they are loose, you usually have that noise all the time at the same conditions).

does the noise speed up as you accelerate? you said you have it under hard acceleration- does it always do it? open the windows and drive by those concrete barriers and theyll reflect the noise back at you (but its hard to tell where its coming from.

You need to get it on jackstand and see if you can get it to do it while standing still (rap on things, look around) and then start it and accellerate (be careful)
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 02:49 PM

Really sounds like Torque converter bolts to me too.
Time to get the car in the air and "nut and bolt it" end to end. Throw a wrench or socket on everything under there. It was all put together in the past couple years, and with different parts. You may find only a few, or you may find a lot of stuff, but it's worth it for peace of mind.
Posted By: Kirby

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 02:51 PM

If you are running stock manifolds- check the "flapper" in the passenger side one. I have had 2 cars where they were loose- and made some crazy sounds that were initially hard to locate.
Posted By: 340727dart

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 02:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I've had cat. converters get noisy when they die, I wonder if mufflers do the same thing?



You know that crossed my mind too. I have the DYNOMAX mufflers that came with my TTI exhaust system. Think one of them came apart inside??



Stu, you need to get rid of those DynoMax mufflers and get some of sunroofcuda's new mufflers.
Posted By: Jim_Lusk

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 03:23 PM

Another vote for torque convertor bolts, but stu it is more likely that some pig who has found about Baconfest has sabotaged your car in an attempt to keep from the festivities........
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 03:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I've had cat. converters get noisy when they die, I wonder if mufflers do the same thing?



You know that crossed my mind too. I have the DYNOMAX mufflers that came with my TTI exhaust system. Think one of them came apart inside??



Stu, you need to get rid of those DynoMax mufflers and get some of sunroofcuda's new mufflers.


Yes baffles do come loose in mufflers and can make a lot of rattling noises.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 04:01 PM

Broken Motor Mount...When you hit the throttle the driver side of the engine will lift & the fan will hit the shroud.... Lift the hood, start the car, keep your foot on the brake, put the car in gear & watch te engine as you give it some gas... You'll know immediately...
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 11:14 PM

Ok i took off the Torque Converer inspection plate and found these parts rattling around in there. What are they??

Attached picture 5084147-steeringwheel001.jpg
Posted By: 340727dart

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 11:18 PM

That round piece looks like the torque converter hub. I have no idea about that other piece.
Posted By: JonC

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 11:20 PM

Muffler bearing.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 11:21 PM

Looks like the nose off a Mini-starter...
Posted By: MowP4rsn

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 11:22 PM

Whatever it is, it doesn't look good!
Posted By: 340727dart

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 11:22 PM

Quote:

Looks like the nose off a Mini-starter...



Hmm. Now that you mention it, that piece on the left looks like part of a starter.
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 11:33 PM

Well, you have found the cause of the noise, now to FIX it!
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 11:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Looks like the nose off a Mini-starter...



Hmm. Now that you mention it, that piece on the left looks like part of a starter.



And the piece on the right I'm waiting for someone from Keisler to ID...
Posted By: Kudakidd

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/10/09 11:56 PM

Quote:

Muffler bearing.



Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 12:11 AM

Yep it's the front of the mini starter that broke off.

It's got probably less than 50 start ups and it already busted.

Is nothing made well anymore??

Thanks guys for the advice as you pointed me in the right direction of where to look.

Stu
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 01:28 AM

Hey Stu i think you have a bolt or a nut loose somewhere...perhaps on the starter
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 01:30 AM

Quote:

Hey Stu i think you have a bolt or a nut loose somewhere...perhaps on the starter



More likely in my head.
Posted By: 78D150CLUB

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 02:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hey Stu i think you have a bolt or a nut loose somewhere...perhaps on the starter



More likely in my head.



I was thinking the nut behind the wheel might be a bit loose, too.

My son just had the same thing happen on his car, but the whole nose of the starter broke off, right back to the mounting. Jammed in the ring gear and he thought the motor had seized up.
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 02:50 AM

Quote:



My son just had the same thing happen on his car, but the whole nose of the starter broke off, right back to the mounting. Jammed in the ring gear and he thought the motor had seized up.


Oh goody so now it's a class action thing!!!!!!!!!! Where are the mini starter tar and feather smiles!!
Posted By: Keisler Sales

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 02:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Muffler bearing.








That is a great picture.


Stu glad to hear you found out your issue.
Posted By: aarcuda

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 02:32 PM

whats the round piece? What part of the mini starter is that?

and lets see a picture of the broken starter!

Any ideas why it broke? maybe it had been dropped before it was installed??? If its some sort of alignment issue with the ring gear, the next one could break just as fast.

btw, how does the ring gear look?
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 02:38 PM

Quote:

whats the round piece? What part of the mini starter is that?

and lets see a picture of the broken starter!

Any ideas why it broke? maybe it had been dropped before it was installed??? If its some sort of alignment issue with the ring gear, the next one could break just as fast.

btw, how does the ring gear look?




The piece that broke off is the front end of the mini starter and from what i can see via the inspection area there is no damage to the ring gear luckly. The shop that installed the Keisler transmission is going to replace the mini starter in a few days as they sold it to me. I have no idea why it would break other then a bad casting on the part of the manufacture of the starter. Hopefully yhe next one will not do this again. I drive the roadrunner like a little old lady so i know the breakage was not from any abuse on my part.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 03:59 PM

Quote:

Ok i took off the Torque Converer inspection plate and found these parts rattling around in there. What are they??



stu do those 2 pieces fit together ?

I'm going out on a limb and say the Kiesler trans does not have a pilot for the snout of the starter to fit it , so I would be curious to know WHY that broke off
Posted By: aarcuda

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 05:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Hey Stu i think you have a bolt or a nut loose somewhere...perhaps on the starter



More likely in my head.



I was thinking the nut behind the wheel might be a bit loose, too.

My son just had the same thing happen on his car, but the whole nose of the starter broke off, right back to the mounting. Jammed in the ring gear and he thought the motor had seized up.



did you sons car have a keisler tranny? johnahah may be on to something
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 09:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ok i took off the Torque Converer inspection plate and found these parts rattling around in there. What are they??



stu do those 2 pieces fit together ?

I'm going out on a limb and say the Kieselr trans does not have a pilot for the snout of the starter to fit it , so I would be curious to know WHY that broke off




Yes John, the two pieces do fit together to make the nose cone of the starter. I have no idea why it broke but the shop who did the tranny install put the ministarter in at the same time. They are sending a tech over to my place right now to see it.
Posted By: Darius

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 09:52 PM

Glad you found the problem Stu.
I was going to suggest removing all the empty cans from the trunk and see if that would have made a difference.
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 10:32 PM

Here's a photo of my original Mopar starter and one of an EXTRA mini-starter i have. This is not the broken one as it's still attached to the engine.

You can see the mini would take up even less room than the standard starter so i do not think it breaking off has anything to do with the Keisler bellhousing.

Attached picture 5086485-Ministarter.jpg
Posted By: 68HemiB

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 10:37 PM

Quote:

Here's a photo of my original Mopar starter and one of an EXTRA mini-starter i have. This is not the broken one as it's still attached to the engine.

You can see the mini would take up even less room than the standard starter so i do not think it breaking off has anything to do with the Keisler bellhousing.



Does the Keisler bellhousing have a bunch of empty space in the area of the starter's nose, or is there a relief meant to accept the nose of the starter? From here, it looks like the nose of the mini starter is a bit bigger.
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/11/09 11:01 PM

I do know how much room is in the bellhouseing as of now but when they take the broken starter off i sure hope if that is the problem then they can modify it somehow?


The mini starter actually takes up less space than the factory unit. Just hard to see in the photo.
Posted By: 78D150CLUB

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/12/09 12:11 AM

No. it,s a stock Brand X. The starter is very similar to the minis, though.

It may be as John says, that the starter is not fitting correctly in the bell housing. If it's being forced out of alignment slightly when it's mounted it could put too much stress on the nose of the starter.

If it has too much opening, the torque of the starter may cause the pilot end of the snout to flex away from the ring gear and stress the housing in the opposite direction.

Either way could result in a fracture over time.
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/12/09 12:20 AM

The tech who did the original install stopped by on his way home just now. I told him what you all said about the alignment and he will make sure that is taken into consideration before the re-install of the new mini starter. I take the car back in tomorrow.
Posted By: B1arno

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/12/09 12:43 AM

One more vote for torque converter bolts.
Arno
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/12/09 12:59 AM

Quote:

One more vote for torque converter bolts.
Arno



Hey Arno i guess you missed the part where it turned out to be a broken mini starter.
Posted By: aarcuda

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/12/09 02:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

One more vote for torque converter bolts.
Arno



Hey Arno i guess you missed the part where it turned out to be a broken mini starter.



Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/12/09 11:46 PM

Well we got another mini starter installed and so far all is good again. The tech who put it back in said he found that the adapter plate that goes inbetween the starter and the bellhousing was slightly off center. So he drilled out the holes where the bolts go through so the new starter will sit perfectly flat. We shall see if that was the cause of the problem.
Posted By: migsBIG

Re: . Help diagnose strange noise in drivetrain - 03/13/09 12:47 AM

Hope that is all the problem is, never like those hidden problems that creep back up. Hope the parts didn't do any other damage when the started broke up. What was the brand of starter thAt died on you?
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