torsion bar issues? (UPDATED with pics now)

Those are all Oz Valiants...top one is my old VG coupe (sold a little while back) then my Aussie Charger, and bottom is my newest VG I just got in Oz and is on it's way here now...due in about a weekish actually.

Oh, and as for drive throughs..there is an In & Out Burger locally here I've been to in a bunch of the Oz cars, they have drive throughs on both sides of the place

Right is right Left is left

So...back on topic...Sharpie, have you had time to check this out further? I'm interested to find out what the problem is.

update:

okay, I did some sleuthing this afternoon and came up with some interesting results:


I jacked up the front end to get under the Demon, and when I set it down, it was back to its high altitude again, where it was before I drove it last. I jounced the vehicle again, and it only went down about halfway, and was sitting in the place I wanted it. Weird.

Anyway, I marked the torsion bars on the front and rear. In the front, I marked it at the retaining nut in the lower control arm and on the control arm right next to the mark on the nut. In the rear, I marked the crossmember and the corresponding place on the torsion bar cylindrical retainer with the internal hex in it.

I backed out of the driveway and my steering was great. I was able to stop and steer just fine. But halfway down the block again, it began to sag. It went back again to where it was before I had even jacked it up.

So back in the driveway, I got under the car to look at my marks, and they were all still lined up. Maybe I didn't put the marks in the right place?

Anyway, I was thinking about the toe-out/in comment as well, and measured the toe. When the driver's side wheel is straight, the passenger side wheel is probably 15-25* toed out, if that makes any difference. I also have probably 5-7* of negative camber, but only when the ride height is bottomed out (which it does when I drive it). I'd fix the alignment myself, but I can't find the procedure in my service manual, nor can I find a good simple article online.

So it looks like I'm driving the Demon across town (through traffic) with severe toe-out and camber to get it to the aligment shop

I don't understand how you can keep tightening the adjusters? Aren't you running out of thread?

As stated earlier, the rear mount has to be broken.

Keep us posted, this just doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense to be either, which is why I am asking

But to answer your question, I have the head of the adjusting bolt about level with the underside of the control arm. The problem is, the height level is equal to where it was when the bolt head was about two inches from the control arm undersurface.

Well, you should have at least 2" more of adjustment. Crank it up and see what happens.

Is the tip of the adjusting bolt in the cup of the t-bar lever?

Sharpie - take some close up pics of both sides of the front and back of the attachment points. It may be that the bar and where you marked are both turning within the frame. Are the marks still in alignment with the frame itself?

You should be running out of adjustment on the bars. Can you show us a pic of where it is at (the bolt going thru the cam).

Is it is doing this the same on both sides?

I can only think of a couple of reasons why this would happen:

1) Bars are spinning at the attachment points - either hex end is stripped/rounded, or attachment point is spinning in frame.

2) Bolts on cams are stripped and pushing out when you drive it. You crank it up, but drive it and it pushes the stud out of the cam. Repeat.

3) Alignment it out of wack pushing the front end down. If this is the case, you should be able to drive it and reverse and it should rise back to where you have it. Alternately, you should be able to jack the front of the car up under the K-frame and lower it again and it should go back to the original cranked up height.

4) Retaining clips are missing out the back of the rear attachment point - allowing the bar to back out and spin. I *seriously* doubt this is it. Bad things would happen.

5) Frame is rusted and the whold back piece is spinning/bending (doubtful).

6) Bars are completely shot/fatigued and won't hold their spring (where the bars ever heated or in a fire)? I would think if this was the case the bars would fail.

7) Something physically bent/jacked with the cams.

8) We are all on drugs.

Gonna take a LOT of pictures, and they'll be up tonight

Alright, here's some photos for you:

Driver's side t-bar rear mount (notice grease mark):



Passenger's side t-bar rear mount (grease mark again):



Passenger's side inside the hex:



As you can see, I am toed a bit out:



And negatively cambered a lot:





And sitting really low, too low in fact:



Here's the driver's side adjusting bolt height:



And the passenger's side:



And here's the passenger side hitting the cam:




I noticed something new today: I can lift each side up to the height I want it and it will literally stay there, until I drive it. There's no time lapse either, it won't fall after an hour or so. Only when I drive it. Or when I push down on the fender, then it goes down again to how you see it now.

Anything here strike anyone?

weird!!!

I think you need another set of hands(and eyes) Is there anyone from this site that is in you area? You need someone under the car as you lift up and down on the front end to see what is happening. Just don't have anyone hang under the car as you drive it around the block.

There's a lot of people around, but I don't know if anyone has the time. I'll check around, I guess. This is way too weird though...

Seriously, thank you for the response. The only bushings that were replaced were the upper control arms. I tightened the bolts prior to adjustment, but it seemed like the arms were able to move?

My question is with camber adjustment. I understand there's cams on the bolts, but I don't really understand how they work, can anyone clarify that to me?

I didn't do any work on the lowers, other than jacking them up while under no load to get the upper ball joint stud into the spindle hole, so I don't think anything's been loosened/tightened there.

Finally, I'll take pictures of my shocks tonight. They're definitely old, but don't look bent, and I can't tell whether they're gas charged or not.

Thanks for the help though!

It wouldn't hurt to loosen the eccentrics a bit and then bounce. It will be necessary to do so if you're going to mess with camber.

There is also some eye-of-the-beholder going on about how easily your car stays at a given height. Bouncing statically is one thing, driving down the road is another (and a much better way to establish where your car "wants" to be). Don't sweat the stays issue - just crank the bars some more.

As for camber...

On a simplistic level, your car steers by pivoting the steering knuckle about an imaginary line that passes through the upper and lower ball joints. The angle that this imaginary line is out [or in] from pure vertical is camber. Out at the top of the wheel is positive camber; in is negative. If you are going for the home-alignment-before-driving-to-the-shop method, be satisfied with getting it vertical, and don't fret about nuances.

The amount the same imaginary line is back (or forward) from pure vertical is caster. Back at the top is positive; forward is negative. Forget doing this at home. Alignment mechanics "measure" this by inferring the angle from a change in camber as the tire swings through a set number of degrees of turn. Confused? Don't sweat it. Worry about camber and be done.

Both camber and caster get adjusted at the same time by messing with the eccentrics at the UCA bushings. If you adjust only one of them, you will change both caster and camber at the same time (imagine where the upper ball joint is moving in space relative to the lower ball joint). To adjust one angle without significantly changing the other, one must move BOTH eccentrics. Going the same amount in the same direction messes with camber, while leaving caster relatively unchanged. Going the same amount, but in opposite directions adjusts caster while steering clear [again, he goes with the puns] of camber changes.

Umm, your car is broke.
Send it to me since my Demon is
lonely. J/K..
probably just wore out bars sagging.
Good Luck.

hey sharpie,i got some used 870/890 bars you can have for free.let me know.

When I adjusted my bars, the bolt head is inside the lower control arm by a 1 inch or so.

Another update:

I corrected the toe-in as best I could (with a measuring tape and a level), and while I was fixing that, I went ahead and loosened the cam bolts on the drivers side upper control arm. Well, low and behold, I brought it down when I was finished and the camber was corrected. I have slight positive camber now, but I drove it around and the tires dont howl.

What's more is that I may have fixed my torsion bar issues! When I brought it down, the car was at the upper height again. I thought, okay, now I have to push it down. Well, I couldn't. Not only that, but the suspension was MUCH more rebounding than normal. I took it around the block and when I came back, the suspension hadn't sagged. I drove it again today with the same results.

I did, however, notice one problem I think:



These are Wilwood front fixed calipers, so there shouldn't be this much drag on the rotor, right?

For reference, each of the four piston sticks out about 1/8", and I checked that there was no pressure from the master cylinder. It looks like the cups are stuck in the out position.

If the rotor will spin freely then no worries on the pads touching the rotor like that.

some drag is normal

rotor/hub spins 1/2 turn without the wheel on it, and the wheel spins maybe 3-4 times.

Sounds good to me.

Sounds normal.

Jim Lusk called it,he said it was the toe adjustment.