Borg Warner T10

I have a 1963 BW T10 with a big block Bell housing and Hurst shifter. I understand these are fairly weak. Would it survive behind a stock smogger 440 in a heavy 66 Fury for long? Is it worth anything to a restorer? Thanks!

it's worth something to a restorer. it's better to sell it and replace it with an 833. I wouldn't put one behind any 440; especially in a heavy car.

I had one in a 78 Camaro. It was a pretty tough trans. I don`t know if it is the same as a 1963.

Should be OK as long as you don't pound on it; they were used behind some 409s back in the day.
I don't think any American trans powershifts as cleanly as a T10, butthat's another story...

i lived back in the day when t10's were all there was. they were clobbered left and right. a friend had a '63 dodge with a stock 413 in it. he had a t10 and t85 in it; busted both of them. IIRC, the original design parameters for them was 350ftlbs of torque in a 3500lb car. they seemed to live better in early small block corvettes (low torque and lightweight). there's a very good reason why the big 3 auto manufacturers started making there own 4spds in '64.

another thought I had is the crankshaft. more likely than not the smogger crank is not drilled for a manual trans input shaft. if so i'd rather butcher a 833 that I can get parts for than a one year only that there may not be any parts for.

if you get into the summit catalog and lookup Richmond 4spds (these are t10's) they'll give a torque rating for the transmissions. an iron case will take a little more but there simply isn't enough room in the gear case to put stronger gears.

The Borg Warner T-10 was great behind a 289 Ford or a 327 Chevy. They were not good behind a big block. Your '63 is a rare transmission to sell to a restorer. Their failures are the reason the A-833 was developed.

The Super T-10 is the one in a '70s Camaro. It was big news when they came out in about 1973, because it had quite a bit higher torque capacity.

Richmond Gear has the rights to the Super T-10 and possibly the plain T-10.

I wouldn't put anything less than a Super T-10 behind a bigblock.

R.

The T-10 was used behind lots of big blocks in the day. Sure they could be broken, but they're far from "weak".

The T-85, which is the 3-speed equivalent of the T-10, was used behind the Max Wedge.

Thanks guys for the replies. Are internal parts the same as Chevy's? What is something like this worth? It's a barn find... Been sitting 40 years but shifts thru all the gears and oil looks good...

there were several variations. gm, ford, amc, Studebaker, and mopar had there own variants. some internals may interchange but gear ratios are different between gm, ford and mopar. I know the inputs are different between them. I think what you have is ideal for the collector/restorer; especially mopar, and may be worth something on a trade in with one of the mopar 4spd vendors. ask some questions with vendors or collectors before you start cutting parts up.

the t10 is basically the t85 with and extra forward gear in the main case and reverse in the tail. the t85 was supposed to be stronger. neither are up to modern performance standards.

I found this T-10 chart that indicates that the torque capability was determined in part by the first gear ratio.

Interesting stuff... Mine has a 2.20 first it looks like. Did they ever put these behind poly 318s?

The man who built my Challenger installed one back in the early '80s.
The ratios are good for road course fun. I've only used it with a 360. I've had the car for 20 years and haven't broken anything in the trans. Went thru it and replaced bearings and seals when I first got the car. All those parts were the same as corvette stuff and easy to find. Bear in mind this is a T-10, NOT the super T-10 which came along much later and has a very good reputation for strength.
Mine occasionally sticks in two gears while moving around the paddock, other than that, no problems. I think Chrysler may have only used it behind 361s. though don't quote me on that!

t10's in mopars were one year only (1963) and IIRC 383 only.

The one-year-only Mopar T-10 was used behind the 318, 361 and 383 in B-bodies only.

The 318 version had different ratios than the BB; the BB version had the 2.20 1st gear, not sure what the 318 had but it was probably 2.54.

6PakBee, that chart is for the Super T-10. I remember looking at it when the Super T-10 came out in the '70s.
R.

My only reason for posting the chart was to illustrate that with the T-10 it is incorrect to assume all first gear ratios have the same torque capability. But that aside, I have to admit that the progression of the T-10 has been confusing for me. I am under the impression that the original T-10 was in production up to about 1965. Then the first version of the 'super' T-10 was introduced and was in production up until about 1975 when the second version of the 'super' T-10 was produced. But I could be wrong on that. I've been wrong before.

From what I recall, the Chevys had 2 ratios available in T10s: 2.20 or 2.52 low gear, with a fairly wide 3/4 ratio split on the "wide-ratio". You could tell the 3/4 shift difference at the drag strip.
My '73 Z28 I ordered/bought new came with a Muncie, and though I can't recall a specific factory application of the Super T10, there had to be one or several, as I recall the various ratio sets as posted. At the time, 4-speeds were still the thing in drag racing (MP classes, etc).
Best use of a T10 ever was Ken Dondero driving Bob Panella's blown 301" little panel truck; best I've ever heard, no RPM flare, just beautiful.

I don't know what people were calling them at drag strips or in speed shops, but B-W started calling their new version of the T-10 the "Super T-10" in the mid '70s.
Chevies generally used Muncies or Saginaw 4-speeds from 1963 until 1974. The Muncies came in two gear ratios, 2.52 and 2.20. The famous M-22 "Rock Crusher" was the strongest with its 2.20 First and straight cut gears, but they were few and far between and weren't all that strong,, meaning a healthy big block could kill one. The Saginaw 4-speed with its cast iron case was the worst as applying too much torque in a certain gear would cause it to slip out of gear. They were only used on lower perf vehicles or behind lower perf engines.
The T-10 was used behind engines from all manufacturers and came in a variety of gear ratios and input shaft stickout lengths. The Super T-10 was stock in Chevies but was also sold by speed shops and I don't know what configurations they were made in. As the chart posted above showed, they were available in four flavors as far as gear ratios. I remember there were arguments at the time about which flavor would work best for which engine/car combination.

The Hemi 4-speed was the gearbox of choice for serious drag racers, except for the Ford faithful who preferred the Top Loader.

R.

super t10's shouldn't be confused with the original t10's that came out in the '50's (IIRC 1957), and this includes all the early '60s t10's. there was a 2.32 first gear set that ford and amc used and I always thought Chrysler used that gear set in '63. there's a 2.54 low gear set. the super t10 was borg warners attempt to revive the brand. they were stronger but IIRC correctly they were iron cases rather than alum.

Chrysler used two different gear sets for their T-10s. For the 318 the standard set was 2.54:1 for 1st gear, 1,89:1 for second gear and 1.51:1 for third. For the BB's the close ratio set was 2.20:1 low, 1.64:1 second and 1.31 third gear.