Transmission dead?

Posted by: demigh0d

Transmission dead? - 12/06/17 07:45 PM

2005 Durango Limited 5.7 Hemi w/tow package

The truck has been running strong with no issues.

Suddenly, while heading up a hill to my house today, the RPMs wind out and I come to a stop. The transmission isn't going anywhere in any setting.

I was listening to the radio at the time and didn't notice any unusual sounds when it happened.

There's now a high pitch whine that varies with engine RPM. Sounds like a power steering pump that's low on fluid.

When I turned off the engine there was kind of a grinding noise that changed pitch as the engine came to a stop.

Any suggestions on what happened? I do have quite a bit of experience repairing cars but that was from the 70s/80s.

Thanks,
Duane
Posted by: amxautox

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/06/17 07:48 PM

Torque converter broke?
Posted by: DAYCLONA

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/06/17 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By demigh0d
2005 Durango Limited 5.7 Hemi w/tow package

The truck has been running strong with no issues.

Suddenly, while heading up a hill to my house today, the RPMs wind out and I come to a stop. The transmission isn't going anywhere in any setting.

I was listening to the radio at the time and didn't notice any unusual sounds when it happened.

There's now a high pitch whine that varies with engine RPM. Sounds like a power steering pump that's low on fluid.

When I turned off the engine there was kind of a grinding noise that changed pitch as the engine came to a stop.

Any suggestions on what happened? I do have quite a bit of experience repairing cars but that was from the 70s/80s.

Thanks,
Duane



I'll put my money on the converter, typical "Mopar" issue, it grenaded internally and flushed all the shrapnel thru out the transmission... DAMHIK
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/06/17 08:01 PM

I suppose that means a complete rebuild will be needed.
Posted by: poorboy

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/06/17 09:05 PM

Maybe you will get lucky and the flex plate broke. I am assuming the trans is full of ATF? A broken cooler line will empty a trans pretty quickly. Unless there is a fluid level issue, the trans will have to come out. If you go through the work of pulling it, you might as well rebuild it. Gene
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/06/17 10:34 PM

Fluid still looks and smells good. I don't see any leakage.

Biggest thing is the cost. The last trans I had rebuilt (98 Cherokee. Suspension crushed a cooler line and the trans cooked) cost me about $3,000. I can't afford that kind of expense right now.

I have an 01 Durango 4.7 that was crushed by a tree back in February. Was thinking maybe I could do a swap but I think it has the 45RFE.

I plan on dropping the pan this weekend to see if I can spot any obvious issues.
Posted by: stumpy

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/06/17 11:29 PM

Isn't there a valve in one of the cooler lines that can cause trouble Or is that another truck model?
Posted by: Tom_440

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/07/17 01:20 PM

Originally Posted By stumpy
Isn't there a valve in one of the cooler lines that can cause trouble Or is that another truck model?


The valve in the cooler line can get gummed up and keep the trans fluid from circulating, cooking the trans. Doesn't seem the fluid is burned here.

Throw any codes?
Posted by: Transman

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/07/17 03:14 PM

Is this a 4 wheel drive vehicle. Make sure nothing happened to the transfer case. Have someone start the vehicle up and place in drive and listen and feel the transfer case if equipped. The grinding could be a converter if it took out the turbine splines but that is not common on those units.
Posted by: DAYCLONA

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/07/17 04:46 PM

Originally Posted By Transman
Is this a 4 wheel drive vehicle. The grinding could be a converter if it took out the turbine splines but that is not common on those units.




Tell that to my wallet, as I had a converter failure in my 99 Ram 4X4 that destroyed the trans in no less than 20 mins after the converter started it's "death cry"...

My 2010 Ram 4X4 suffered the same fate, my Daughter's 2003 4X4 2500 I traded it just as the converter started whining as I didn't need another tranny rebuild bill for $2K+ , and my buddy's 2005 2WD Ram died from the same cause...no more Rams for me, my tranny guy (funny I never needed a "tranny guy" until I started buy Dodge Rams) says this is a common problem he's seen with Dodge trannys over the years, junk factory supplied converters that can't hold up, that end up puking their ground internals thru out the transmission (none of these trucks ever towed a trailer, but eventually end up being towed! to the tranny shop)
Posted by: 383man

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/07/17 05:12 PM

I found when I would get them in with a loud whine when reving the eng it was usually the filter clogged and/or the cooler clogged. But what clogs them is the problem as I have seen converter clutch material do it many times. If it wont move at all I would check to see if the pump has any pressure at all as it may be caused by the converter. I have driven some with clogged filters that would just stop moving while driving and then when they sit about 20 minutes turned off it will start up and drive a bit again. Ron
Posted by: Transman

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/07/17 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By DAYCLONA
Originally Posted By Transman
Is this a 4 wheel drive vehicle. The grinding could be a converter if it took out the turbine splines but that is not common on those units.




Tell that to my wallet, as I had a converter failure in my 99 Ram 4X4 that destroyed the trans in no less than 20 mins after the converter started it's "death cry"...

My 2010 Ram 4X4 suffered the same fate, my Daughter's 2003 4X4 2500 I traded it just as the converter started whining as I didn't need another tranny rebuild bill for $2K+ , and my buddy's 2005 2WD Ram died from the same cause...no more Rams for me, my tranny guy (funny I never needed a "tranny guy" until I started buy Dodge Rams) says this is a common problem he's seen with Dodge trannys over the years, junk factory supplied converters that can't hold up, that end up puking their ground internals thru out the transmission (none of these trucks ever towed a trailer, but eventually end up being towed! to the tranny shop)


Read my post again. - I'm talking about turbine spline failures - those are not very common. As for your experiences - sounds like you shouldn't be driving a Dodge.
Posted by: DAYCLONA

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/07/17 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By Transman
Originally Posted By DAYCLONA
Originally Posted By Transman
Is this a 4 wheel drive vehicle. The grinding could be a converter if it took out the turbine splines but that is not common on those units.




Tell that to my wallet, as I had a converter failure in my 99 Ram 4X4 that destroyed the trans in no less than 20 mins after the converter started it's "death cry"...

My 2010 Ram 4X4 suffered the same fate, my Daughter's 2003 4X4 2500 I traded it just as the converter started whining as I didn't need another tranny rebuild bill for $2K+ , and my buddy's 2005 2WD Ram died from the same cause...no more Rams for me, my tranny guy (funny I never needed a "tranny guy" until I started buy Dodge Rams) says this is a common problem he's seen with Dodge trannys over the years, junk factory supplied converters that can't hold up, that end up puking their ground internals thru out the transmission (none of these trucks ever towed a trailer, but eventually end up being towed! to the tranny shop)


Read my post again. - I'm talking about turbine spline failures - those are not very common. As for your experiences - sounds like you shouldn't be driving a Dodge.




Uhhh...my bad, I just saw "converter", missed turbine spline failure...

but your right also on "shouldn't be driving Dodges", I realized after blind loyalty of buying 4 Rams that I needed a truck that could be reliable so I bought my first Chevy Silverado 4X4, best truck I've ever had truthfully...
Posted by: csk

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/07/17 07:07 PM

Originally Posted By DAYCLONA
Originally Posted By Transman
Is this a 4 wheel drive vehicle. The grinding could be a converter if it took out the turbine splines but that is not common on those units.




Tell that to my wallet, as I had a converter failure in my 99 Ram 4X4 that destroyed the trans in no less than 20 mins after the converter started it's "death cry"...

My 2010 Ram 4X4 suffered the same fate, my Daughter's 2003 4X4 2500 I traded it just as the converter started whining as I didn't need another tranny rebuild bill for $2K+ , and my buddy's 2005 2WD Ram died from the same cause...no more Rams for me, my tranny guy (funny I never needed a "tranny guy" until I started buy Dodge Rams) says this is a common problem he's seen with Dodge trannys over the years, junk factory supplied converters that can't hold up, that end up puking their ground internals thru out the transmission (none of these trucks ever towed a trailer, but eventually end up being towed! to the tranny shop)


My daughters 2000 Ram 1500 has done the converter trash 2 times. GERRRRRRR
Posted by: AARCONV

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/07/17 08:14 PM

you can check to see if the front pump is pumping fluid by looking at the dipstick when cold, it should be above the full level, start the car and check again, the fluid should go down, if it stays the same level then the pump is not pumping.
Posted by: Transman

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/07/17 09:26 PM

Unless someone knowledgeable took your transmissions apart and fully understands failure modes I am having a hard time understanding how anyone could blame a trans failure on the converter. Whining does not automatically mean converter failure, nor does no drive with whining, and on and on. What does happen more time than not is where there truly is a converter failure and the trans AND the cooler are not properly repaired. Cooler flushing was a pissing match for a long time with the dealerships and what worked in the "old" days stopped working when we went to stacked plate coolers. In the end we had the tech line tell the dealer techs if you have a trans failure - replace the cooler. Seems all the repeat converter failures ended. The posts here do not mention transmission type. Many of the 42/44/46/47 lockup gas engine converters had issues with the lockup piston in heavy truck usage - that was fixed around 2002/2003 with a "positive taper" piston. Failures went to almost zero based on warranty return analysis. The RFE converters had issues in heavy trailer tow applications due to overheating causing the hockey puck to fail - it was made of phenolic resin. FWD units had some issues but mostly shudder related due to some quality issues along with software. Not defending Chrysler - just explaining things. And by the way - if you don't buy a Mopar Reman converter you DONT get the upgrades that were made.
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/08/17 03:19 PM

Here's what is sounds like

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1T5icpE7y8518BiaeMe3EdGygkDrRAu1o


I've found other posts with people saying the pickup or cooler return filter came lose on them, producing the same symptoms.

Getting ready to jack it up and pull the pan.
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/08/17 03:21 PM

It's a 5-45RFE
Posted by: amxautox

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/08/17 03:34 PM

Yup, it's broked.
Posted by: John_Kunkel

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/08/17 03:46 PM


From the audio it could be the pump.
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/08/17 04:28 PM

It's AWD.

Originally Posted By Transman
Is this a 4 wheel drive vehicle. Make sure nothing happened to the transfer case. Have someone start the vehicle up and place in drive and listen and feel the transfer case if equipped. The grinding could be a converter if it took out the turbine splines but that is not common on those units.
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/08/17 05:32 PM

No metal in the pan that I can see.

Filters were tight. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Looks like this is the first time the pan has been off as there was no gasket, just rtv.
Posted by: Transman

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/08/17 08:11 PM

Look on the side of the valve body - there should be a long metal "strap" that holds the accumulator pistons in place - these sometimes pull the screws out and cause a gigantic leak.
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/09/17 04:38 PM

I dropped the valve body.

Those bolts are all tight.

Originally Posted By Transman
Look on the side of the valve body - there should be a long metal "strap" that holds the accumulator pistons in place - these sometimes pull the screws out and cause a gigantic leak.
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/09/17 04:42 PM

No, No codes.

Originally Posted By Tom_440
Originally Posted By stumpy
Isn't there a valve in one of the cooler lines that can cause trouble Or is that another truck model?


The valve in the cooler line can get gummed up and keep the trans fluid from circulating, cooking the trans. Doesn't seem the fluid is burned here.

Throw any codes?
Posted by: Transman

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/09/17 07:05 PM

Get it off the ground - start it up and out in gear and feel/listen to the transfer unit - can't remember the last time I saw an RFE unit act like yours and not set a code. Sounds like something else gave up he ghost.
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/10/17 02:56 PM

My mistake, there actually are codes....

P0750 Shift Solenoid 'A'
P0700 Trans Control System

I don't know why they didn't show up the first time.

Originally Posted By Transman
Get it off the ground - start it up and out in gear and feel/listen to the transfer unit - can't remember the last time I saw an RFE unit act like yours and not set a code. Sounds like something else gave up he ghost.
Posted by: 383man

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/11/17 01:42 AM

Originally Posted By Transman
Look on the side of the valve body - there should be a long metal "strap" that holds the accumulator pistons in place - these sometimes pull the screws out and cause a gigantic leak.



Saw that a good bit at the dealer. I had one loose line pressure on one when the plate screws came loose and the plate let an accumlator piston fall out. Ron
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/11/17 10:38 AM

So, based on responses and what I've read, I've ordered a remanufactured solenoid pack. I figure if it doesn't fix the problem I'm only out $150.
Posted by: Transman

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/11/17 10:52 AM

I doubt anyone could blame a solenoid pack in regards to grinding on engine shutoff.
Posted by: Transman

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/11/17 10:54 AM

I doubt anyone could blame a solenoid pack in regards to grinding on engine shutoff.
They do make noise sometimes on initial engagement but I doubt you would hear a RFE since it's in the pan. The 41TE used to cause a noise like dragging your finger across the teeth of a comb but that solenoid module was external.

I don't see where you checked for cooler flow to see if the pump is working properly.
I don't see where you checked to see if the drivetrain is ok - an AWD has a module that can fail and cause a no-drive condition.
If there is no cooler flow and no line pressure you need to drop the trans and check the regulator and tc control valves.
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/11/17 11:53 AM

Well it's not really grinding. That's just the closest description I could come up with at the time.

Since then I recorded it and have been able to listen to it multiple times.

It's probably closer to the sound when you put the trans into park while still rolling. Though not as loud.

Originally Posted By Transman
like dragging your finger across the teeth of a comb


That actually descibes the sound pretty well.

Originally Posted By Transman
I doubt anyone could blame a solenoid pack in regards to grinding on engine shutoff.
Posted by: demigh0d

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/11/17 12:54 PM

From what I understand there's usually warning signs that a pump is failing (MIL code, overheating, poor shifting, noise). They aren't known to fail suddenly like this.

The trans functioned perfectly up until the moment this happened.

I was heading up a (aprox) 15% grade approaching a sharp corner. Probably doing 10-15mph. No noise, no warning. It was like I had shifted it into neutral.

Thought: If the trans attempted to shift into 1st (Slowing for the corner) and the LR solenoid didn't actuate could it cause the same symptom?

A faulty tc control valve won't produce my symptoms. If stuck closed it'll affect gas milage and cause overheating. Stuck open will cause the engine to stall when coming to a stop. It should also generate a MIL code.

The drivetrain appears to be ok.

I'm trying to avoid dropping the trans if possible. I'm pushing 60 so working on cars isn't as easy as it used to be. Working in a driveway of 3/4" drain rock doesn't help either.

I also need to get it back on the road quickly.

I figure it's worth gambling $150 on a solenoid pack. I already have it apart. If that doesn't take care or it the next step will be to drop the trans.

With it out I might as well do a complete rebuild. I've rebuilt 727s and these look (from the tear down videos I've watched) a lot simpler.
Posted by: Transman

Re: Transmission dead? - 12/11/17 03:06 PM

Unless I forgot something the tc valve controls converter fill - if the converter doesn't fill you get no drive and noise. But we can't always explain all symptoms without data.

As for the solenoid - generally if you put it in relay limp in you should get something regarding movement.

I hope your solenoid pack get some you back on he road.

And for pumps - one piece of debris from the converter can lodge the PRV open - or any other valve for that matter.