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AN fitting leak

Posted By: challenger70

AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 03:10 PM

I am at my wits end with a fuel leak (drip) after my fuel pump. I have replaced both AN fittings and still it drips. Are there any secrets to sealing these? Never had a problem anywhere else with them.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 03:12 PM

Is there and dents/damage to the male end where it seals right on the tip?
Posted By: challenger70

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 03:18 PM

Quote:

Is there and dents/damage to the male end where it seals right on the tip?




No, I had to pull the pump a few times because it is a pos B.G. that kept spawning leaks and figured it was worn fittings causing the leak so I replaces them both with brand new Earls fittings. I have been after drips in this area all last summer between the pump and these fittings I am ready to just drop a match. How hard can you torque these things? I am hesitant to put too much pressure with them being made of aluminum, and yes I have the correct aluminum wrenches for the fittings.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 03:35 PM

A little oil on the treads always helps, they don't have to be killer tight. I bet it's leaking at the other end of the fitting, not at the flare?
Posted By: challenger70

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 03:39 PM

not sure what you mean, but the leak is comming from the connection of the two fittings not the hose to fitting connection.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 03:52 PM

I meant maybe it's the fitting screwed into the fuel pump, where it screws into the pump? Is it tapered pipe thread or straight thread that uses a O ring to seal?
Posted By: challenger70

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 04:12 PM

Quote:

I meant maybe it's the fitting screwed into the fuel pump, where it screws into the pump? Is it tapered pipe thread or straight thread that uses a O ring to seal?




Oh no, it is definitely the AN fitting itself. I have put teflon tape on the pipe threads and their is an o-ring as well.
Posted By: Jerry

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 04:44 PM

the fittigns with the o-rings never use pipe tape on them. they are designed to be sealed with only the o-ring. pipe tape if its on too thick may stop it from seating correctly and giving an improper torque reading. also in terms of sealing the taper part of the fitting, you need to make sure that the fitting are parallel when being isntalled. also make sure you are meeting the minimum bend radius requirements of the hose. a 3/8 stainless hose is about 6" minimum bend.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 05:00 PM

Quote:

the fittigs with the o-rings never use pipe tape on them. they are designed to be sealed with only the o-ring. pipe tape if its on too thick may stop it from seating correctly and giving an improper torque reading.




Ditto
Posted By: challenger70

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 08:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

the fittigs with the o-rings never use pipe tape on them. they are designed to be sealed with only the o-ring. pipe tape if its on too thick may stop it from seating correctly and giving an improper torque reading.




Ditto




I will note that for the future. The angle of the lines may be a good point, I don't think any of the bends are that sharp. I had this setup for 5 years and it never leaked a drop until I had to R&R the fuel pump a few times because of leaks in the rotor housing of the pump.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 08:28 PM

I'd replace the 2 offending fitting one more time, clean them(the new ones) with brake clean, give them a good visual inspection for nicks etc, lightly lube the threads/O ring with 30 wt oil & snug em.
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 08:55 PM

I figured I'd throw my in. I know a retired Top Fuel Crew Chief and learned from him that he always "lapped" the fittings in the flare area.

After I learned about this I started inspecting mine and have found that very little surface area is actually making contact!

Try using some lapping compound (sparingly) on the flare, snug up the fitting and swivel it back and forth until it cleand the anodizing off of both flared ends of the fittings. Look for a nice pattern like you would find on a valve/seat face. Be sure to remove all the lapping compound with some brake clean especially important with oil lines!

Give it a try and if it is still weeping fuel go for a second round of lapping. I think this will take care of your issue and won't cost much. Other than my "Nominal Fee".

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Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 08:57 PM

Quote:

I figured I'd throw my in. I know a retired Top Fuel Crew Chief and learned from him that he always "lapped" the fittings in the flare area.

After I learned about this I started inspecting mine and have found that very little surface area is actually making contact!

Try using some lapping compound (sparingly) on the flare, snug up the fitting and swivel it back and forth until it cleand the anodizing off of both flared ends of the fittings. Look for a nice pattern like you would find on a valve/seat face. Be sure to remove all the lapping compound with some brake clean especially important with oil lines!

Give it a try and if it is still weeping fuel go for a second round of lapping. I think this will take care of your issue and won't cost much. Other than my "Nominal Fee".


Excellent idea & my kind of guy
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 09:06 PM

Quote:

I figured I'd throw my in. I know a retired Top Fuel Crew Chief and learned from him that he always "lapped" the fittings in the flare area.

After I learned about this I started inspecting mine and have found that very little surface area is actually making contact!

Try using some lapping compound (sparingly) on the flare, snug up the fitting and swivel it back and forth until it cleand the anodizing off of both flared ends of the fittings. Look for a nice pattern like you would find on a valve/seat face. Be sure to remove all the lapping compound with some brake clean especially important with oil lines!

Give it a try and if it is still weeping fuel go for a second round of lapping. I think this will take care of your issue and won't cost much. Other than my "Nominal Fee".




Wow , never heard of that. I've built,tuned and driven 3 TADs and 2 Q8 dragsters and have made many hoses and have never had a problem getting them to seal. I only used KB fittings that were hard anidozied and I don't think you want rub that off because then the alky will attack the aluminum.

Check out this 632 pontiac engine I ran for a couple years. Dry sump, fuel injection on alky, with 10 NOS solinoids. Many hoses on this one for sure.

Posted By: StandOnIt

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 09:10 PM

A road car is not putting as much fuel and pressure as a top fuel or any thing like that. I just put them together and never had one leak. My big block v-drive flattie had many many fittings and none ever leaked.
Posted By: 64dodge572

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 09:16 PM

Earls makes a very thin soft aluminum "conical seal" that fits on the male cone. I have used these and they work great! Part number is 169104ERL for #4, 169106ERL for #6, 169108ERL for #8, etc.
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 09:51 PM

Wow , never heard of that. I've built,tuned and driven 3 TADs and 2 Q8 dragsters and have made many hoses and have never had a problem getting them to seal. I only used KB fittings that were hard anidozied and I don't think you want rub that off because then the alky will attack the aluminum.


Ever heard of Ken Veney? Been around a long time. He currently runs a 3 Alcohol Hemi (converting to 4) Pulling Tractor and does not put a new AN line on the thing until it has been lapped! The man does not do things for the sake of just doing them.

If you think about it the alcohol should not make contact with the fitting in the sealing area where the anodizing will be removed except on disassembly. I dont beleive he's using alcohol anyway.

I have never had a problem either and I have Earl's on my car. Just thought I'd try to help the dude out!

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Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 10:01 PM

Quote:

Wow , never heard of that. I've built,tuned and driven 3 TADs and 2 Q8 dragsters and have made many hoses and have never had a problem getting them to seal. I only used KB fittings that were hard anidozied and I don't think you want rub that off because then the alky will attack the aluminum.


Ever heard of Ken Veney? Been around a long time. He currently runs a 3 Alcohol Hemi (converting to 4) Pulling Tractor and does not put a new AN line on the thing until it has been lapped! The man does not do things for the sake of just doing them.

If you think about it the alcohol should not make contact with the fitting in the sealing area where the anodizing will be removed except on disassembly. I dont beleive he's using alcohol anyway.

I have never had a problem either and I have Earl's on my car. Just thought I'd try to help the dude out!




Settle down, not saying your wrong.
Just never had to do it. I was lucky I guess.
Posted By: challenger70

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 10:12 PM

Quote:

I figured I'd throw my in. I know a retired Top Fuel Crew Chief and learned from him that he always "lapped" the fittings in the flare area.

After I learned about this I started inspecting mine and have found that very little surface area is actually making contact!

Try using some lapping compound (sparingly) on the flare, snug up the fitting and swivel it back and forth until it cleand the anodizing off of both flared ends of the fittings. Look for a nice pattern like you would find on a valve/seat face. Be sure to remove all the lapping compound with some brake clean especially important with oil lines!

Give it a try and if it is still weeping fuel go for a second round of lapping. I think this will take care of your issue and won't cost much. Other than my "Nominal Fee".




Forgive my ignorance but what is and where can I find "lapping compund"? Thanks for the great ideas guys
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 10:14 PM

Settle down, not saying your wrong.
Just never had to do it. I was lucky I guess.





It's all good! I wasn't trying to be pis*y about anything. Just trying to give the guy something to look at and/or think about. Think it's worth a try?

Nice ride by the way!

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Posted By: roadhazard

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 10:19 PM

You should be able to find it at NAPA. I have Permatex Valve Grinding Compound 34B (Item #80037)

PM me if you have any ? I'll give you a toll free # to contact me at.

Attached picture 5050095-Barracuda005compressed.jpg
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 10:20 PM

Quote:

Settle down, not saying your wrong.
Just never had to do it. I was lucky I guess.





It's all good! I wasn't trying to be pis*y about anything. Just trying to give the guy something to look at and/or think about. Think it's worth a try?

Nice ride by the way!




Cool,Thanks
It make sense and is worth a try if it's leaking at the flare. I hope he doesn't have 37 degree fittings mixed up with 45 degree?
You can get valve grinding compound at any auto parts store I would think.

Yes I know who Ken is, ran his cly heads on one of my hemis a long time ago.
Posted By: challenger70

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 10:28 PM

Quote:

I hope he doesn't have 37 degree fittings mixed up with 45 degree?





Me too Thanks for the help I should be able to get this solved once and for all with all these great ideas.
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 10:38 PM

Cool,Thanks
It make sense and is worth a try if it's leaking at the flare. I hope he doesn't have 37 degree fittings mixed up with 45 degree?
You can get valve grinding compound at any auto parts store I would think.

Yes I know who Ken is, ran his cly heads on one of my hemis a long time ago.





Heads-Up point on the flare angles!! Should be able to spot that visually and a good thing to look at.

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Posted By: ChinooK440

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 11:07 PM

A few months ago my car sprung a massive leak right in the middle of a long length of Earls perform O flex -8 braided hose.
I couldn,t believe it since they were only about 5 years old as well . I didn,t know what to think so after a little investigating i saw that quite a few other people have recently had this same probelm as well and there is even a disclaimer about it on Earl,s website !!!

Though it doesnt sound like that,s your problem( right now at least) i figured i,d mention it since it sounds like were both running the same lines of the same age and probably the same fuel.

Suposedly certain additives in SOME pump gas can break these and other standard fuel hoses down over time. They mention if in doubt to run the teflon lined hose !

After reading that i was seeing as how i had about $500 worth of hose and fittings in the car and would have to
change over to teflon would require all new fittings .

Well long story short i no longer trusted the rest of the hoses after that and there was no way i was gonna spend another 500 +++ .................so I ended up just running all new hard lines and for the flex connections i used R9 rated hose which has a liner to combat the nasty additives and is availible at any decent auto parts store.

Like i said this is probably not your issue ( at least not right now) Just something to consider for anyone running these lines or considering it.

I got lucky since it happened in my driveway and when the car was still cold ........it could have been alot worse.

If you can smell gas fumes in your garage with no visible leaks , that,s fuel seeping though and slowly breaking down those nice pretty expensive lines.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/24/09 11:59 PM


Lapping the sealing surface is an old trick, we used to do that on leaks in 3000 psi hydraulic systems but the conical seals mentioned earlier are a sure-fire fix for stubborn leaks at the flare.
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/25/09 12:00 AM

I don't know, I've worked with AN fittings for years up to 1' in size (16) with few problems. I've never had to resort to doing anything other than making sure that both faces were clean with no burrs. As to mixing and matching SAE 45 degree fittings with AN 37 degree fittings, I don't think the nut threads are compatible enough to get this done. Don't know though, never tried it. This link is an excellent discussion on fittings.

http://www.malonespecialtyinc.com/tech.htm#anchor136590
Posted By: ChinooK440

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/25/09 12:35 AM

just a copy & paste from earls plumbling ...
Installation Notes
Fuel manufacturers may have added any number of new unpublished additives to their blends. It is therefore difficult to know how the tube compound used in the inner liner of our Perform–O–Flex or any other brand of elastomeric hose will react with a specific fuel. Because of the unknowns described above, we are unable to guarantee that the hose listed is the best possible product to use with any specific fuel. If in doubt use teflon lined hose. Not to be used with brake fluid.


i,m not bashing them... i still think they make the best performance plumbling products out there ...I give them props for posting this info just wish they would have found out sooner
Posted By: challenger70

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/25/09 12:36 AM

Quote:

A few months ago my car sprung a massive leak right in the middle of a long length of Earls perform O flex -8 braided hose.
I couldn,t believe it since they were only about 5 years old as well




I think that is exactly what I have I think if that is the stainless steel(silver) hose and not that smoke colored hose. Worse yet mine is about 7 years old. That would really suck because I also have a fortune wrapped up in fittings and hose as I have a return style fuel system. Thanks for the heads up
Posted By: ChinooK440

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/25/09 12:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

A few months ago my car sprung a massive leak right in the middle of a long length of Earls perform O flex -8 braided hose.
I couldn,t believe it since they were only about 5 years old as well




I think that is exactly what I have I think if that is the stainless steel(silver) hose and not that smoke colored hose. Worse yet mine is about 7 years old. That would really suck because I also have a fortune wrapped up in fittings and hose as I have a return style fuel system. Thanks for the heads up





Ya i had a return style system as well

The perform o flex hose i mentioned is in fact silver with a faint black spiral tracer line but from what i,ve read this problem isn,t isolated to only that certain line either .....it can affect just about any unlined hose. Which i guess is the reason even garden varetity parts store grade hose is now availible with an inner liner.

Gates / goodyear etc. R9 fuel line has a thin blue liner in the inner core. i.d suggest anyone replacing any rubber lines to use this instead of the older R7 rated line , although it is about $4 bucks a foot .
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/25/09 12:21 PM

2 things come to mind, 1. slide the fitting back and check the flair for cracks or pits. 2. did you flair it with an AN flair tool? they are 37* not the standard 45*. either one of those will cause it to leak..
Posted By: challenger70

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/25/09 02:57 PM

Quote:

2 things come to mind, 1. slide the fitting back and check the flair for cracks or pits. 2. did you flair it with an AN flair tool? they are 37* not the standard 45*. either one of those will cause it to leak..




These are both fittings I purchased from Earls, I didn't make any of the flairs, perhaps I missed a step? I never even heard of a flair tool...
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/25/09 03:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

2 things come to mind, 1. slide the fitting back and check the flair for cracks or pits. 2. did you flair it with an AN flair tool? they are 37* not the standard 45*. either one of those will cause it to leak..




These are both fittings I purchased from Earls, I didn't make any of the flairs, perhaps I missed a step? I never even heard of a flair tool...




are you using braided line or a hard line? if it's a hard line they have to be flared.
Posted By: challenger70

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/25/09 03:06 PM

braided line
Posted By: Quicktree

Re: AN fitting leak - 02/25/09 03:12 PM

Quote:

braided line




oh I thought you were running a hard line just make sure you lubricate the rubber(inside the line) when you screw the outer piece into it. if the braided hose is not new it can leak also and make you think it's the fitting.
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