A833 18spline, hard to put into 1st after being in neutral

I have a 67 GTX 18 spline 4spd and after putting the car in neutral at a stop light it is hard to put into 1st gear, I have had the trans gone through and with new synchros/brgs from the kit from Brewers as well as put in the newer style roller bearing pilot brg and am using the Amsoil 75/90 synthetic gear oil that is GL4, the trans will down shift fine in all gears, its only when put into neutral at a light and than back into gear that it is real stubborn to the point that sometimes not sure it will even go into 1st or 2nd gear.
Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks.

I'm not a 4 speed guru by any means, but if I were having that problem, the first thing I'd do is check the air gap in the clutch.

If that checked out good, I'd dump the trans fluid and try some Pennzoil synchro-mesh gear oil.

Don't think changing gear oil will do anything, the gears are not moving.

Double check the shifter alignment. I had a wore out shifter on my 300 that would get the shift handle stuck between the forks on the shift mechanism, it first showed up as difficult to put into first at a stop.

Who did the rebuild/ There are 2 different synchros used in different year 18 spline transmissions. Possibly might have used the wrong ones? Or you have a broken synchro ring.

Check the clutch adjustment, if you can have someone use a feeler to stick in between the clutch disc and flywheel or pressue plate with the pedal depressed like you drive it see how much air gap you get and let us know
Mopars are famous for dragging clutch disc
Which makes them hard to shift and put into gear
Good luck, you CAN fix it

I remember this was a common thing back in the day.. Seems like it was easier to put into second to stop the gears, then move up into 1st.

I would say based on your description that the most likely candidate is,

Improperly adjusted clutch creating drag. An indicator of this is how close off the floor does the the car start to pull the motor down and move ??

Pilot bearing / input shaft issue, again creating drag.

Mis-alignment of the bell housing, again creating drag.

An internal Trans issue.

keep us posted

The syno rings and hubs were all changed to the 70 style a few years a go.
I believe there is air gap as I had checked that with a helper when I was under the car, also when the car is running if you depress the clutch by hand it takes a while till you can feel the release brg starting to contact,
I will give it a bit more air gap and try to see if that helps.
Thanks.

I think that you will find that if you have between .060 and .100 air gap between the throw out bearing and pressure plate fingers with the clutch pedal up all the way the clutch will work way better

I changed to Amsoil sysnthetic gear oil in my 4 speed and it did not shift correctly. Honestly it's been so long ago and I left it in for a short time only, so I forgot exactly what my symptoms were. I think it was just hard shifting. I called Jamie Passom and he told me the old 833 needed regular gear oil the make the synchros work properly. He told the Amsoil was too slippery.

Synchros do not work when at a stop and shifting into any gear.

WHAT ??? The job of the synchronizer is to slow down the gear to ease engagement. The brass ring grips the cone on the gear and slows it down before the teeth engage. I would look into the shifter adjustment first, then the dis-engagement of the clutch.
Excessive bellhousing runout can also cause low speed engagement issues. You may need to change the fluid to a more syncro friendly fluid. I just use regular old dino gear oil and stay away from synthetics because they are just too slippery for the syncro rings grab the gears.
If this happened all of the sudden I would look into some mechanical issues like shifter issues or something in the clutch linkage.
Gus

Go back and reread what I wrote then tell us what gear needs slowing down when at a stop. Hint, NONE.

All I can tell you is I bought an NOS NP 833 installed it with regular gear oil and ran it for about 10,000 miles. I changed to the Amsoil and it shifted poorly. I changed back to gear oil and all is still well.

Do you recall as to exactly what oil you ended up using as I would definitely give it a try, was it just regular of the shelf 80/90 gear oil??? Thanks

The op says he's in neutral, then can't get it back into gear.

If the trans is in neutral, and the clutch is engaged, everything is turning.
When you push the clutch pedal in, there is usually still some amount of drag helping to keep everything spinning, and when you go to put it into gear, the synchro has the job of stopping the rotation and aligning the teeth so it will slide into gear.

Surely you've heard someone grinding a gear to get it engaged........ They don't grind when they're not turning.

I still say a fluid change would help, and the Pennzoil synchro-mesh was recommended to me by a guy who does a lot of transmissions.

It's not that expensive and it's easy to do.

I have also heard that slippery [ synthetic ] gear lube doesn't work well in older transmissions .

NAPA sells a GL-4 rated gear oil. Just make sure its not the GL-5 rated stuff. I also head that Pennzoil Syncromesh works as well.

I think I bought the Pennzoil at AutoZone or Advance.

Were the shift forks replaced?

Does it grind when it finally goes into gear?

I had this problem ... it was misalignment between my Lakewood scattesrshield and the crank center line. Hopefully, the OPs problem is a simple clutch linkage adjustment for more air gap when the pedal is pressed all the way down. I measured runout when I installed it and it was like 0.016 total (.008 off). I couldn't get the runout below 0.010". It would be 0.008" runout and then I'd tighten the bolts a bit and the runout would grow to 0.014" or more. I'd hit it with a deadblow hammer to try to get it closer but then it would still walk out as I tightened it. I got it as close as I could and welded the dowel alignment bushings onto the scattershield. I thought I could live with it but it dragged and made shifting into first from neutral difficult. I could tell that the cluster was spinning with too much drag when I tried to put it into 1st. It would finally crunch in as I pressed the shifter forward and I'd take off. I finally decided that the 30 yr old bellhousing needed to be retired so I switched to a Quicktime. The pilot bushing was way shot when I took it apart. The Quicktime indicated at 0.002" total runout right out of the box which made me happy. But after just a little bit of driving, the clutch fork pivot bracket folded over and I had to limp home. I think that everyone but me must be running a hydraulic throwout bearing by now but I didn't want to fix what wasn't broken (linkage) and I didn't have another $700 to throw at it. My family is giving me this Sunday off so I hope to bolt it all back together and get it down off the jackstands. Stay tuned ...

I do use the Pennzoil "Synchromesh" NON synthetic gear oil and that has always worked well over the 40+ years that I've been driving a 18 spline 833.

They most assuredly do. What happens when you shift a non-synchro trans from neutral to 1st gear at a stop without waiting for the input shaft to coast to a stop?

Yup just plain 90wt gear oil.

Everytime I see Pennzoil, I make the sign of the cross..

EVERY car ( back in the day) that was using Pennzoil, and was burning oil ( blue smoke), stopped when changed out to Castrol or Kendall, ( the brands I used) after I stopped using Pennzoil...

Many years ago and a different time, but I never use any Pennzoil products...

Does anyone have the product number for the Pennzoil as the pic does not show it.
Thanks

Pennzoil 3501.

Someone asked if it grinds going into gear, I can upshift and down shift no problem, it is only hard to put into 1st if I put into neutral and try to go back into gear,
I have tried the 2nd gear deal before going into 1st and it is hard to go into 2nd as well.

To me it sounds like shifter alignment, shift fork wear (they wear at the ends which pushes the slider assembly at an angle) or something else wrong in the slider assembly itself.

It will go into 3rd and 4th easily from neutral?

based on the responses it might be worth changing the fluid once or twice, twice to flush

keep us posted

I phoned the local Napa and it looks like they have the #3501 so will change it the next chance I get, I will leave the clutch freeplay as is just to see if it is the oil problem.
The shift forks were replaced so they are in good condition, I think I tried the 3 or 4th gear from neutral and almost think there was no difference, there is no grinding once it does go into gear.
What I did notice was that if I went into 1st from neutral it would kind of road block it but if I keep pressure on the shifter it would go into 1st, there is no grinding into 1st or 2nd from neutral, just feels like its blocked but like I said it would go if I keet pressure on the shifter.
When you overanalyze this it does make sense that maybe the oil is too slippery and not stopping the synchros, but when I keep pressure on the shifter it stops the synchros????
Once I change the oil I will keep everyone posted.

I wouldn't over think it....... it's just an oil change.
It will either help or not.

But it may take more than 1 change to flush the slippery stuff out.or some kind of flush, brake clean, acetone ??

Did I miss what happens when going directly into reverse from neutral. If grinding likely a clutch release issue or severe misalignment or tight pilot bearing/bushing drag would be a good guess.

If any clutch drag or pilot bearing drag at all causing main shaft to continue spinning with clutch pedal down, synchronizes will relieve this but with great effort. Going into reverse, of course no synchro help at all.

OH nothing John, just RAM it in, and generate some FLAKES to seat the bearings and parts, Makes for a smoother shifting trans when no teeth are left on the gears.

A warped clutch disc could do exactly what is described. How do you warp a clutch disc?

By letting the back end of the transmission hang down while main shaft is in clutch plate but not yet in pilot bearing is one way. This can warp the disc enough to still have drag even with clutch pedal to the floor.

Question is: Did this all start after overhauled transmission was installed, or was it overhauled because of this problem?

In other words, when did this problem first begin!

Again, what happens when shifting from neutral to reverse? If grinding it is not an oil or synchro problem. It is most like a clutch problem, or remotely a mal-adjusted linkage issue.

Thats true when in neutral and the clutch is out the input shaft is turning as is the countershaft and the syncro's do work when you shift into gear since the gears are turning. Try this and when you push in the clutch and go to put it in first wait about 10 seconds before you try to put it in first after you push the clutch all the way in. By then all the gears should have stopped turning and it should go right in first with no grinding. If it does not and seems no different then when you go into first as soon as you push the clutch in then something is causing the input shaft to still be spinning when the clutch is in. I have seen a pilot bearing that was to tight cause this years ago. If it goes into gear normally then you know the input shaft stopped turning as it should.
Myself I found that if its a clutch adjustment not letting the clutch disengage all the way you will usually also have shifting problems with all gears. I would still make sure the clutch adjustment is right but it does sound like the syncro is not working right. Can the wrong fluid be the cause ?? Myself I have not run into that but from what others have seen the wrong fluid may affect how the syncro's work so it surely wont hurt to change the fluid and try it. Good luck with it , Ron

Pretty sure I remember way back when to use ATF in the 4-trans. I think the one I had used it and it shifted fine. Just a 23 spline, but same principle.

Change the oil and try it, cheap and doesn't take long to do. Probably have to do it twice, but that is what I would do.

I still feel that making sure the air gap is wide enough would be the first step.

If that's found to be sufficient......then change the oil.

Forget the pedal free play dimension and check the air gap at the disc.

Not sure if this was said earlier,if it was sorry.When having trouble shifting into 1st gear,has the op tried shutting the engine off.That would tell you if its a clutch or transmission problem.

Still to hear what happens with clutch in, going straight from neutral to reverse with engine running at idle and perhaps say 1,200 rpm.

Additional test. Place in reverse clutch on floor, engine running, transmission.gears are all stopped. Move to neutral, wait a couple of seconds leaving clutch pedal on the floor, move back to reverse. Grind or no grind? If grind, either clutch drag or pilot bearing drag. 40 seconds for all of above.

The answers to these might/would eliminate much irrelevant speculation.

I'm betting that's what it is. The clutch hangs a little from mis-adjustment, or defective pressure plate, pilot bearing or other.

I agree with a little clutch adjustment first. i believe since you can't get it into first or second after sitting in neutral, the clutch is still turning the main shaft.

Got the starter out of the car right now, give me a few days to figure out this POS, will post once I get the starter back in.
Thnx

Are you certain that you clutch pedal is being that pushed to floor as far as it will go? If so, as a test adjust clutch to zero free play. Of course cannot leave that way.

Haven't worked on one of these with a std trans in many years.......but.......why does the starter have to come out to check the air gap?

I thought you'd just pull the inspection cover off the bottom.

Me thinks his starter is a complete different issue
Gus

Good ideas

Could clutch disc when released, not move freely on transmission main spline. I had always checked for this many years ago when was still replacing my clutches, did so before bolting pressure plate in place. More than once had found a problem,,,,and a couple of times with a disc not runing true when spun on a smooth bench top surface.

I will post this thought on the other thread of the day suggesting another clutch problem.


Z bar bushings OK?

Yep, starter another issue, drive/bendix did not kicking in once in a while.

What causes the bent clutch fork bracket?
I have a bent one on a Tremec 5 speed w/QuickTime bellhousing.

If I were flushing that trans I would just go for 80/90 GL-4. Not sure but that Pennzoil resembles the stuff I have to run in my 01 Ram Diesel 6 speed, and it was like $9 a quart. Regular 80/90 is WAY cheaper than that.

I have the same issue with my Diplomat. Sometimes hard to shift into first from neutral.
I've blocked the pedal to the floor, it had plenty of air gap and the disc spun very freely when i crawled underneath. I really thought i was having a clutch dragging or even pilot bearing issue, but it doesnt seem to be the case.

I've got bell housing runout down to .003 or .004. Trans only has a few thousand miles on rebuild, Centerforce DF clutc, Sta-lube GL4 75w90, shifter is only a few years old.

The weird thing is that it usually only does it when the car is pointed down hill. Is it possible that the disc is just laying against the fly wheel and grabbing enough to spin the input shaft a little sometimes?

I'm working my way through a bent clutch fork bracket in the new QuickTime Bellhousing I recently installed. I had just put everything back together for the first time and went out for a cruise. The clutch was operating properly and I was happy.

But then I depressed the clutch and I could feel something give way. Fortunately, I wasn't too far from home and I limped back in 2nd gear. I'm running a Centerforce Dual Friction setup with a diaphragm pressure plate that has pretty light release pressure. I got the car up on jack stands and looked in the clutch fork hole in the bellhousing and could see that the pivot bracket had folded over (see picture). All I could think of was that I had installed the wrong offset pivot bracket and every time I hit the clutch, the pivot bracket wasn't lined up with the detent in the fork and the pressure was trying to bend the bracket out so it would fall back into the detent. So I took it all apart and double checked my spacing ... it was good. After careful examination of my throwout bearing, I came to the conclusion that when I inserted the clutch fork, it only snapped into one side of the retaining clip on the throwout bearing. The other side never clipped in. This caused the whole assy to be misaligned and after just a little use, the pivot bracket folded over. It was always a frustrating experience trying to get that clutch fork properly inserted and the access hole in the QuickTime is smaller than the one in the Lakewood making proper fork insertion even more difficult.

I bent the bracket back to normal and tried to insert the clutch fork with everything on the bench. After several attempts, I was never able to get both clips on the throwout bearing to properly clip in. I had a spare new throwout bearing so I looked at that one side to side with the one that I took out of the car. The retaining clips didn't really line up very well with the fingers on the clutch fork with either throwout bearing which would make it hard to get both to clip in when installing the fork. I tweaked the clips a bit for better alignment and then tried installing the fork with everything out of the car. I was successful on 3 out of 4 attempts to insert the clutch fork.

The pivot brackets that were supplied by QuickTime were pretty flimsy (see pic #2) in comparison to the one that was on the Lakewood that I was replacing. I'm going to fab up a new pivot bracket out of some heavy angle iron that I have and then when I get it clipped in, I'll use my video camera borescope thingie to make sure both clips on the throwout bearing are actually engaged.

I think that all this aggravation is trying to get me to dump my z-bar and linkage for a hydraulic throwout bearing but I just don't have the cash right now to do that upgrade.

FYI,
We've removed more of those conversions than we've installed. Just had another come in today

Have you tried 2nd or 3rd under those conditions ?? I really doubt the disc would be dragging when pointed downhill.

Usually when I've pulled it into second when it didn't want to go into first, it was a little stubborn but not nearly as stiff as first. Third, im not sure, never took note of it giving me any trouble.

If i let off the brakes and let it roll forward a tiny bit as i put it in gear it'll go right in.

Its just weird, because it seems like it only really does it at a few certain stop lights around town that are down hill. Can't say it does it at the uphill ones.

Bloody 'ell, I just saw this.
Which type fork pivot bracket was in your QuickTime?
The butcher shop that put my trans in used the A body bracket.
In a B body.
In your pic, the B/E body bracket is on the right.
Were there spacers under your bracket?

I'm continuing this discussion with "Stroker" in PMs so as not to hijack the thread. If anyone is interested, PM me and I'll add you to the conversation.

-rumblefish72

One way I've check for a clutch dragging when depressed is to shut engine off while trying to engage 1st if it drop right in it's dragging. JMO

Still trying to figure this thing out, changed oil from the amsoil syn gl4 to Pennzoil synchromesh and now currently have old school 80/90 gear oil, problem is I can't seem to find 80/90 that is only gl4, the one I have is gl4 and gl5 rated 80/90.
Almost seemed like the old school 80/90 was a bit better, but just came back from a stop and go drive and a good highway run in about mid 80's degrees day and it seemed with the car getting warmer than usual it was hard to get into first or any gear actually, so I tried like was suggested here was to shut the engine off while trying to put it into 1st with the clutch depressed, it went into 1st as soon as the engine was shut off.
Not sure where to go with this S--T. appears as the whole powertrain gets hot/hotter and all the parts expand it makes the going into 1st more of a problem. Don't even know where to look anymore???

Sounds like the clutch disc doesn't have enough clearance. Take the inspection plate off. Have someone depress the clutch pedal, and you put a feeler gauge inbetween the disc and the pressure plate and/or flywheel. You should have at least .060" gap. If you do not, adjust until you do and then go retest the vehicle. Pretty simple 15 minute test.

Just checked the clearance with the clutch depressed and its well over 60 tho, the disc flops around and will slide back and forth on the splines so it's not hanging up at all, not sure?? seems like I said before if the trans is not cooking hot its fine, just ordered up some of the sta-lube sl24239 gl-4 trans oil that Brewers recommends, gotta keep trying to figure this crap out!!!!
Thanks all for the suggestions, keep them coming.

Here's what I would try at this point.....

I would want to try and determine if the disc/input shaft is turning, when it's hot and the clutch is depressed.

Go out, drive it around, get it hot to where the problem is occurring.
When you get it back home like that, immediately jack it up and get it on some jack stands or lift(or if you have a friend with a lift, etc).
With the inspection cover removed and the motor running, brakes set, you should be able to see if when you push the clutch in, does the disc stop turning or not?

If when trying to push the lever into gear the disc doesn't stop turning........ Either there is too much drag on the input shaft in the bushing....... Or the brass ring just doesn't have enough friction to stop the gears from turning.

I put in one of the newer style roller bearings thinking that the old style brass bushing was causing this problem

I guess my thinking is...... The disc is either turning or it isn't.

If its still turning, I don't see how it can be anything other than something is creating more drag to keep it turning than the brass ring has to stop it from turning.

I was not going to do so but will ax again. Perhaps I have overlooked response.

What happens when going from neutral to either reverse or 1st gear, engine running.

Are you certain that clutch disc is not warped?

Still interested if clutch shaft pilot bushing or bearing is to tight or otherwise damaged.

Suppose it is possible that pressure plate not releasing equally about its entire perimeter,,,because of defective pressure plate, incorrect , improperly installed or damaged throw out bearing.

There was posting regarding clutch release linkage, has this all been resolved.

Adjust clutch to where no free play at all,,,,can you get into gear then?

How hard is it to get it into reverse after its all heated up?

I would think if the issue was excessive drag on the input shaft, then it would grind A LOT when going for reverse.
If reverse seems pretty normal, and you could get another gear(like 3rd or 4th) normally, then I would think there is an interface problem with the brass ring and cone for 1st gear.

What happens when you try to go from reverse to first?