Borgeson or Firm Feel steering box

I'm looking to upgrade my power steering and trying to pick between them. I see the Borgeson box is more expensive but once I factor in the shipping of the new box and then shipping back the core maybe it's not that much difference. For sake of argument let's base the decision on quality.
Any opinions?

The numbers I pulled together favors the Borgeson. Shipping kills the appeal of the Firm Feel rebuild and I'll take the weight savings.

Planning on ordering a box here soon from Borgeson, I wish I could find some level of a discount on one.

If you are going to put a lot of miles on the car the factory box will get sloppy in a few years....just like any factory box.

I noticed that Summit carries the Borgeson which means free shipping and they sometimes have a 10% discount I think.

I think Summit killed the -10% and just does $25 off $250 on occasion.

What made you decide the Borgeson was the better option?

Cost is close to the Firm Feel after you ship it across the World twice. Firm Feel is building on a 40 year old box, I feel that the Borgeson will have some inherent design improvements, weight reduction and better ratio.

The Borgeson requires that expensive adapter if you are using a stock column, I think I will be mitigating some of that cost and putting it into retrofitting a steering quickener...for even faster steering.

yep old box is still waiting to be sent back, ugh, but man my stage 3 box with my hotckis setup made my car come alive, and it feels a lot safer!! get ahold of sublimehemi on here he knows the differences and certain set ups even tho smaller the burgeon doesn't work.. look him up..

If you are referring to a Borgeson conversion box / kit I would proceed with extreme caution. Based on their "previous" good reputation of doing things right we have purchased several of their "KITS" for different makes and models of customers cars. They all had installation / fitment problems that I later found out via google were quite well documented. Their tech support acknowledged the problems when confronted but did little other than offer to send out replacement parts that have the same issues. The owner and his son are basically absentee owners who are off pursuing other interests. The issues range from erroneous pitman arm geometry, off center steering, power steering groaning at low speeds, coupler issues between the box and shaft as well as a myriad of other problems. it is disappointing to see a company that was once a stellar supplier go down the tubes due to mis management.

I had read about some of those problems but I got the feeling it was rectified when they switched to a new box that was a bit smaller. I guess not?

I don't have any experience with any Borgeson box for a passenger car but, the box I bought for a truck was just plain dangerous as it had a very hard, almost locked-up feeling, at center.
They would not honor their warranty and denied that the box was defective even though they never saw it.
They will never see my business again.

I will just say be cautious and make sure that you have some recourse.

I owned Tim Werner's former Valiant (aka The Red Brick) for 2 years. It has a Firm Feel Stage 3 box in it. I liked the feel of it in terms of firmness, but when I took it up in hills near where I live, I experienced a vagueness in the steering on center. I had to try to anticipate the lack of response as it went through the center portion of the travel. It could just be that it needs the sector support bearing that FF sells. I never investigated whether it was the box flexing on the K member or just on-center sloppiness.

Whatever it was, it did not inspire confidence in me to go faster, even though the rest of the chassis was up to the task.

If anyone would like to talk to me about these kits, I'm happy to answer questions. I've been making the direct fit couplers and direct fit hydraulic line adapters since day one. There is a lot of misinformation in the threads above.

The borgeson box is light years ahead of a factory box and is actually a box based on another OE design. I should also note I am a supporter of this board.

Bergmanautocraft.com

I have the Borgeson in a Valiant set up for autox. I have no complaints and Like it. I only wish the header fitment was better considering its smaller.

Some information.

there are some vendors who will not say a bad word about a product they sell unless they quit selling it. Then the truth may come out.

Keep that in mind when weighing user versus seller responses.

Now if a vendor was willing to back up their faith in the product by agreeing, in writing and in advance, to a 100% refund all costs to you if the product turns out to be a POS, then yeah give it a shot. And that's ALL costs, not just a refund of your purchase price.

Let us know if that unicorn shows up.

Could you tell me more about the header fit problems? I'm planning on doug's headers in my 69 dart with a 340.

My experience is that TTIs rub so you have to find out about dougs. I would be interested also. I'm running TTI shorty.

Our problems were not with the box but fitment, pumps, pressures and application issues that are well documented. Sorting out their issues is a very costly expense for a shop to eat. Their tech guy admitted that They don't do real world testing or mock up. Their thought process per him is, if it works in a camaro then it should work in A cuda. That is a direct quote.

Well, just one look at this hacked-together POS should have been a tip-off it was a Mickey-Mouse, fly-by-night snowjob.

Tried pointing this out 4 years ago and no one would listen (it was actually previous to this but that thread is gone):

Moparts Thread

Not supposed to weld steering components. Period. End of story. It's ILLEGAL where I live and likely the same where you are.

Love it when I'm right. Up next, Hellcats are going down in value, ready to re-vive a certain thread when the time comes.

they are running off their previously established reputation, and selling

Is this legal?

Peter - when are you going to address the issues that people are experiencing? If the product is that good back it up. I can't see how buying the box from you solves any of the installation issues and i have yet to see you address any of the quality fitment issues in writing. The B Box should drop right in like the stock box without SHIMS and it does not. If the steering set up/wheel alignment is good with the stock parts and the B Box has issues the problem is with the box, not the car. Coupling misalignment are not ok either. It's not designed to work that way.

As for Tim's Hot Rod Valiant handling being vague in the center of steering travel with the firm feel box - maybe it's time the box got a look see. Hot laps does take it's toll on equipment. My experience with the FF Stage 3 on road course car is nothing but excellent and I would not hesitate ever to use any firm Feel Product product.

I can't comment on the Borgeson box but I have the FF stage 3 in my Charger and love it. I am not going to claim it makes the car feel like it has rack and pinion but it does address 75% of the steering vagueness you had with a standard rebuilt box.

Not to mention that Dick @ FF is top-notch and took time to talk with me and answer any questions I had.

Laughably enough the old ancient technology stock Mopar box and the state of the art, all modern and good, latest and greatest invention since sliced bread Borgeson box are both recirculating ball designs.

Steering ratios are similar.

um, grizz, i have no dog in this fight, nor do i have any experience with the borg box. but..... using your statement, ALL new vehicles with struts for steering components are therefore illegal on your streets and highways. the spring mounts are WELDED onto the strut body as well as the strut MOUNTS to the hub carrier. and from looking at factory as well as aftermarket replacement struts, some of those WELDS are not very nice. however, it seems there is not a problem for those WELDED steering components being LEGAL. modifications to components that include welds may be in fact illegal where you are at, but WELDED steering components from the OEMs and aftermarket are most certainly legal. again, not picking on you, nor do i have any experience with the borg box.

Argue amongst yourselves all you like. I expect more from you Tom since you seemed like a decent guy when we met years ago. I have clearly identified myself and am happy to answer questions to any aspect of these parts. In typical Moparts fashion, lots of pot shots are taken from behind the keyboards. TJP lets talk. Looks from your site you have interest in Mopars but your site doesn't say your name. Have you purchased from me in the past?

No Sir, I have typically bought directly from Borgeson or other sources that sell their "kits". SO no offense meant to you or your business.
The OP asked for real users opinions on Borgeson vs Firm feel. I felt compelled to comment on my experiences with Borgeson Kits and their tech support.

I ordered two boxes through Bergman and couldn't have been happier. Both installs are still performing the way they did on day one. I can't speak for the first version of the box (this is the one that seems to take all the flak), but the second version boxes that I bought installed into both cars without any issue caused by the box itself. Only hiccup I ran into was having to shore up my K-frame due to flexing.

If I had another Mopar I would be calling Bergman to order another.

Did you happen to have headers on your cars? I'm interested in how well they fit.

Yeah, both cars have the standard small block A/F/J/M 1 5/8 header with the three tubes under the steering link. I had to jack the motor up to get the old box out, but the new one slid in through the top without having to keep the motor suspended.

The smaller box should make it easier when swapping to a big block in the Spring.

I have the same problem right now. Otherwise, the steering box is good on the road. I like it. My steering is pretty direct, point-and-shoot. I didn't buy mine from Bergman, so I have nothing to argue with him about.

For all steering box lookers, you may want to try out Lares. They rebuild boxes but also build boxes and I'd not be srprised to find that they build them for Firm Feel and Borgeson.
They are in Minnesota, easily found online.

R.

Just to clarify - I was not bashing FF products. Just stating my experience with the Stage 3 box. It is possible that the box just needed to be freshened.