69 Charger RTSE 440 timing issues

I was helping my buddy with the above car which he just got. Ran like crap so started with the basics. The plug wires were not on the distributor cap correctly so we installed per the service manual. Referenced from TDC confirmed with the rotor button pointing correctly to number 1. Installed the wires. Now the car will not even start! Someone put an orange box and matching distributor in the car. I have not confirmed the box is hooked up correctly yet, but if the plug wires are on correctly and connected to the correct plugs. What in the World would prevent this car from firing? I also have a 69 Charger RT which is bone stock original and I used my distributor location as a metric to get his car started. Nothing won't fire off. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks

Lawrence

you probably changed the firing order... find TDC for #1 cylinder, and start from there. it does not matter where #1 is on the cap, as long as the order is correct.

making it match the service manual picture, assumes nobody has never moved the dist. somebody probably has....

When you say the wires were not correct, were they not 18436572 going counterclockwise from #1?

are you sure you are on the compression stroke?

This is what I did. Bumped the car until the timing mark was at TDC. From there I popped the distributor cap looked at the rotor button and used where the button was pointing as number 1. Then installed the plugs accordingly. Is this right?

take out the #1 plug. stick your finger in the hole. then bump it over slowly until the compression tries to push your finger off. then look at the dampner and keep bumping it to the TDC mark. now you are on the compression stroke of #1. start from there....

You got it 180 out.

Robert

(1) turn the dampener till it is at 15 BTDC. (2) turn housing slightly till the magnet is lined up dead even with the tooth. (3) rotor should be at or nearly at #1 or #6 plug wire. "IF SO", unbolt & raise the dist & rotate the rotor/shaft 1/2 turn & reinstall it & repeat (2) & (3) & see if it will now fire. "IF NOT" holler back

Thanks guys! I should had confirmed the number #1 piston was on the compression stroke using my finger or a piece of cloth. I will do so soon. If the rotor button is not pointing to #1 (which I expect will not) should I pull the distributor out and index it correctly? I have the wires as they should be on the cap.

Thanks again!

Do whichever is less trouble for you. Kinda figured you'd already arranged the wires the way you wanted them.

Robert

Might as well start from scratch & get everything OE spot on. Get the dampener on 15 BTDC, confirmed on the #1 compression stroke. turn housing till the magnet is dead even with the tooth. with you standing by the pass fender, Have the can pointed straight across to the dr side, in effect 12 0'clock/#1 plug wire at 5 0'clock, which will be just below the forward dist cap spring steel retainer. If needed you can reclock the intergear to achieve that. A bit of work but when it is done it is done & you know it is right. Also on rotor phasing, with the magnet dead even with the tooth, the rotor should be pointing at the #1 cap terminal (the center of that cap terminal bulge) & actually a bit CCW from it as the can will shift it CW from that at rest position when it gets above ported when the eng starts

The wires were not on the distributor per the service manual. I think the distributor is installed 180* out. Will work on it asap and report back.

Thanks!

actually if you are on TDC #1 compression (15 is far better) with the magnet lined up & with the wires clocked CCW from there starting with #1 of course it will run (with RP in the ballpark) & that might be a good simple plan just to hear that puppy roar to life & reclocking the intergear (if needed) takes a bit of time but haveing the wires routed correct lets em lay the neatest with the shortest lengths possible (more so on a SB) but every little bit helps & helps prevent future mistakes. On RP some dists have vastly different top rotor to bottom lower metal tang clocking so you do want to check it (where it is at at rest).

180* out.

Cyl 1 compression stroke cyl 6 valves will be rocking.Then you no for sure

Agreed, if you can see the #1's or #6's pushrods (even (1) of em) with an inspection mirror/penlight in the oil filler cap hole in a valve cover, you can have a helper move the crank back & forth a bit (from TDC) with a 1&1/4" socket/breaker bar & if one of the #6 pushrods moves then you are at #1 compression (& vice versa). this'll save you the trouble of opening up a valve cover & having to reseal it & dealing with that mess.

I had the distributor 180* out. Once fixed the car started right up and idled nice, but when on the road it acts like we are having a fuel starvation situation. Not sure?? The car has a 650 cfm Eddy on it now which needs to be replaced so my buddy is going to put a 750 cfm on it anyway. That may correct it but I am not convinced. We pulled the 650 cfm carb and cleaned it well which seemed to help but not correct the issue. We are going to do a fuel pressure test next.

Thanks for the help!

Lawrence

that was too easy! More info on how it it acting, WOT or part throttle? why are you thinking it needs to be replaced? any other changes made that might be related? the cleaning did help so that does point to the carb. More info please.

While the 650 is not ideal, it should run/drive ok with it. I hope the 750 is not an Eddy 750. In any event, if you still have issues check the rubber line from the sending unit to the hard line. If it is old and brittle it could have cracks and pin holes in it, that cause air to be sucked in but typically they won't leak.

Car idles fine, most of the time, but on occasion does have a slight skip. When I had the timing light on the car you could see the miss. The light would momentarily go out. When driving it around the neighborhood and you accelerate the car dies. Does not cut off but just loses power. If you try and feather the gas to keep it running it spark knocks bad. Like it is going very lean. I have not had this problem in the past? The car was half ass restored so I am sure there are plenty of gremlins to work out still.

With it being Christmas and family in town probably will not be able to pick this up until next week.

Thanks for the help

Merry Christmas!!

Lawrence

I agree the car should run fine with the 650, but when he got the car the plugs were gas soaked, the breather was full of fuel. The car would backfire and flames would shoot out of the tailpipes.Yes it is an Eddy 750. I know some guys like or don't like them. I probably too prefer a Holley over the Eddy, but given the ease this is the way he wanted to go. For me I restore and run the original equipment. My 69 has the original Carter AVS on it. Not restored and has a stumble off of idle which I have been chasing for sometime now. I am getting ready to pull the engine and paint the car so will address the carb issue then.

Will check the fuel lines. That is a good idea.

Thank you,

Lawrence

My buddy put the new carb on and we have the same issues. Not a big surprise. When we were setting the timing I could see when the car would miss the timing light would momentarily go out then come back on. So there must be an ignition issue here. The box is a new orange unit, not sure of the wires. Any ideas on where to go from here.

Try a different Box. The orange boxes have been known to be troublesome. Make sure the box is well grounded.

Ok, I am back again. Problem is still with us. This is is what is going on. Start the car and it runs perfect for the first 2 or 3 minutes then it starts to skip or miss. I can see this with the timing light hooked up. When the car misses the light will go out momentarily. Could this problem be the ballast resistor? When driving the car is just loses power when you try to go above say 20 mph. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks guys,

Lawrence

What Stump said, did you try another box?

Yes, bought a new box and put it in the car...same issue.

Alright, I don't suggest shotgunning/purchasing parts at random for a solution but I'm thinking dist pickup. got another dist you could sub in for a quick test? (that'd be much easier than tearing down a dist to R&R the plate). plugs would act up right away and plug wires likely would the same way but not always but this sounds like a system upstream from them that is causing a major issue when it heats up (like the pickup or the box). EDIT With more thought I might borrow some plug wires & check the plugs both of which would be much easier

Have you checked the ohm's on the ballast resistor? I am wondering since the problem doesnt happen right away if the ballast is heating up enough to start causing problems down the line at the distributor. When it starts to miss have someone with a volt meter check the voltage at the coil while you have the timing light on it. Also make sure all of your engine grounds are nice and clean.

you might richen the choke on the chance that it has a slight vac leak. As said on the ballast when it starts to act up you could bypass it with a jumper with alligator clips on each end to ans that ASAP (gotta do it fast when it is hot). Might check Rotor Phasing (my baby) as it might be borderline & then cause the problem when the system gets hot (leaner & higher resistances). Keep us posted!

Plug wires are new as well as the plugs. I like your distributor idea but it looks new too, but that does not mean anything. I just rebuilt a factory transistorized ignition distributor on a 69 Corvette. The pickup coil was bad. In that situation the car would not start. I was able to troubleshoot it with voltage checks. I will check the ballast resistor, but for $5 from Auto Zone I think will just go buy one and put it in. Will also check the grounds again.

Thanks for the help.

Lawrence

We're gettin there. We'll assume (for now) the new box is good & we know the plugs/wires are new. You might wire the choke partly open or block the rods up (eddy/carter) to see if that partial enrichment straightens it out. timing in the ballpark? but some of it don't sound like timing but might as well elim it. with RP, with the magnet lined up with the tooth you would want the rotor to be pretty close to vertically plumb inline with the bulge in the dist cap for where the rotor is at tho the symptoms ain't exactly matching that either. when we get it it is gonna be something simple!

How old is the fuel and what kinda fuel was it? How about filters, basic but it hasn't been mentioned. Like Robert said it doesn't all sound like timing but would be interesting to know where you have it set and verify that you have the advance unplugged. Also verify advance is working and how much. I would also check for vacuum leaks if for no other reason to eliminate it as a factor.

Can you pedal through the dead spot and get it to open up and run like a 440 or is it pretty much flat above XXX RPM?