What pistons are in a steel crank post 71 440?

I know a lot is known and discussed on here so I am hoping someone has enough history to answer the question. I have seen a number of 440s in 72 cars that have the thin steel crank balancers so I assume steel cranks, figuring them to be left over engines from 71. I starting thinking today for some reason about what piston would be in them. Has anyone ever tore down enough of these to draw any conclusion, is there a date break to look for? The reason I ask is there is still a few in old boneyards in my area and I wonder if I should pick them up just because.

Thanks in advance, Kevin

seems 440 builders are getting expensive around here, grab them if the price is right.
My notes from the old Silv-o-lite catalog show the 72 and up 8:1 pistons have a compression height of 1.912"
The 66-71, 9:1 pistons have a compression height of 1.970"
The 66-71 HP, CH = 1.990"? (this still seems fairly low compression?)
The TRW six-pack piston, CH = 2.061"

Agreed, true compression rarely meets advertised compression. 10:1 motors from back in the day landed in the low 9 range more often than not and the 8:1 smoggers go low 7s from what I here. My thinking it that if they did have a flat tops they might make good piston donors for some of the low mileage smogger engines I have. I bored at work so I am thinking too much.

Nah we cant relate to that at all!

67 hp = 2.00"
68-70 hp = 2.03"

Buy them, how many flat head Fords are still in the junk yards? 440s are getting scarce

I haven't found 440 to be scarce yet just some think they are made of gold even smoggers.

I just disassembled an H code 1972 440 today, it was cast in Sept 1971. It still has the standard pistons and stock bore.
I know that since I have been running the engine in my 1971 Challenger since I rebuilt it in 1989. Back then I could not afford new pistons so I honed the block and used the old pistons and new rings. To bring up the compression I used 516 heads with bigger valves and some porting. This was before all the repo' parts came out, like aluminum heads.
Anyway the pistons have a very slight dish to them, not that it really matters as I will finally replace them.
According to the 440 Source website the latter blocks are the best blocks made, contrary to everything we used to think we knew...

Could be that they have 500 late blocks to sell and no early ones. I know what they say goes against the mopar engine books.

Guess it depends on where you live and how often the crusher comes around

Trust me I'm not necessarily giving any away either but I have let a number pass for $2-300, I do buy them at $100 though, just cant pass.

My all original 72 440 has cast flat tops that are way down in the hole. Somewhere around 1/8" below the deck. It's really sad.

7.5:1 is far more likely than the advertised 8.2:1.

440Source has exactly zero blocks to sell. Making a "sorta" accusation without checking the facts is just ignorant.

If you want to see what the differences are between older and later blocks this will help:
http://www.440source.com/blockinfo.htm

It has pictures, so everyone should be able to understand.

Of all the things in the world to save, original 440 pistons would be close to the last, and I've been called a hoarder by my wife. If you were selling the aluminum it'd be a different story because they are just flat heavy. Like two pounds per piston heavy.

There were millions of B engines produced. There were about 750,000 440s produced. There isn't a big pipeline with new 440 blocks tumbling out of the end. So if you are in a location in which you can pick and choose blocks in the $100 - $200 range, consider yourself lucky. What I am seeing is 413 MH engines for $750. 440 blocks if they are in good shape are advertised for $500.

Anyway, Bah! Humbug!

Scrooge

68-69 440 350HP, 375Hp and the 69 390hp 6pk engines used the same piston.

I imagine that 66-67 is the same because they both have the same advertised compression ratio like 68-69 .



This is more accurate of FACTORY pistons , the numbers at the top are not factory numbers ... not including 70-71 6 pack engines

My questions was more about if anyone had seen left over steel crack short blocks used in 72 cars or just steel cranks with the smogger pistons.

The answer to both questions would be YES , the cast crank was a midyear 73 thing in the 440.

I have two left with steel cranks, the third I used the crank, pistons and rods in a 76 hp block that had no ring grove, raced for years now going in a street car. I've seen more steel ones than cast.

Around here any carbureted engines are scarce.

I didn't realize the change over was that late, might be more available now that I know that.

Every '72 440 I've had, had a steel crank and flat top pistons, no dish.
All of em came out of c-bodies.

Have built a few 440s using the later casting and have had no problems. I found when I was running 440s that there were more early 440 motors around than later 440s maybe because the later motors were still being used in their original vehicles,while the early ones the vehicles were worn out both body and motor so they were cheap. The only problem I found was when you bought a later 440 it just did not have the good crank. You got more bang for you buck buying the early forged crank motor.

Pick up the 440s one day they will be next to impossible to find cheap. I still have 5 440s as spares and two are early and three are 72 and up.

I thought that was true for the 350 hp motors, but was not sure. And for some reason I was thinking that the 71 piston was 1.99, but I don't know where I got that.

To the OPs question - I don't know. I doubt that it is a 2.00 or 1.99 piston, but not sure if there was something in between that and the 1.91 piston.

440's went to cast cranks in mid-73.
72's had forged cranks.
Guess that has already been stated.

NHRA piston guide,
69 440- .027 below deck
70 440. .051 below deck
71. 440 .051
72. 440 .123 below deck

67 440 .059
68 same as 69

NHRA specs are not ACTUAL FACTORY and should not be used as a guide for any spec that is Factory as delivered mopar related.

So my assumption that a steel crank engine in a 72 was a leftover 71 is incorrect so these 72 engines were built to 72 specs, I.E. dished pistons and not leftover engines built to 71 specs, I.E. flat tops. Pistons are cheap enough in the grand scheme of things I was just trying to cheap out and get extra blacks in the process. I think the NHRA guidelines help in the conversation from the simple fact that they show a significantly shorter piston which is based on a significantly short factory version of the piston.

Thanks for all the input folks.

So they just pulled those numbers out of the hat? Whitch one do you think is wrong?
Just did the NHRA allowed pistons, 68-71 use same piston but show different ch? Should have checked what head gasket they allowed.

Wrong again.

The low compression 1972 engines have FLAT TOP pistons. They are just really short to give the low compression.

Here's a screen shot from the video I made where I was removing a broken head bolt from my 1972 440. The bottom end is dead stock. This piston was at TDC and you can see how far down it is.

Closer cropped shot. Best I can offer until I tear the engine down again.

Did all the earlier ones have valve reliefs or just 6 pack pistons? I think an earlier post said all had the same piston year to year. Feets clearly has no valve reliefs so that might be a tell tale sign of compression, I have always known/believed valve reliefs in a piston denoted "high compression" regardless (within reason of domestics) of the make.

RBs From 65 up 440-6 only, 64 down Max wedge.
Same pistons year to year, no

Those numbers actually line up well with what I said, minus 1970.

I've got a stock '72 short block in my shed. I'll try and measure how far down in the hole the pistons are tomorrow.

I want to make sure I understand your information, so only 6 pack engines had pistons with valve reliefs from 65 up and only Max Wedge pistons had valve reliefs is 64 and older. And 440s did not use the same pistons from say 65-71.

Thanks

One example, 67 had the closed chamber 915 head, so the piston was down in the cylinder more. In 68 the 906 open chamber came about and the piston was raised to keep same CR. I do have some 70 standard pistons I can check against the 68-69 ones I have too, just got to find them, hope I didn't toss them. I can also measure the ones still in the 72 block, if it will turn over, never had any 71s so no idea on those. 70-71 6 Pacs where the tallest CH in 440s and had valve reliefs. Also have a 74 with low pistons, six-pac rods and steel crank, internally balanced, came out of a motor home, got its own balancer too.

Don't go to any great trouble but it would be interesting to know. If you have a good set of standard bore 68-69/comparable pistons you want to get rid of PM me.

The reason for all these questions is I have a 76 RV engine with very low miles that I should be able to pop a set of good pistons in with some good heads and have another respectable engine ready to go.

Thank you

I don't know where they get them, Chrysler maybe ?? But I know that a 69 440 piston is not .027 in the hole , it's more like .050 in the hole.

For some reason Chrysler piston spec is .020ish HIGHER than actual. Perfect example is a 68-69 383 HP, the factory piston on blueprint spec is .0025 in the hole ... CH is 1.932 ..., NHRA spec has the piston .021 ABOVE the deck. There isn't a 383 delivered from Chrysler with a piston that high above the deck surface.

Also the NHRA spec for a 906 is 79.5cc chamber, ACTUAL is 90-92cc.

Advertised compression ratio from Chrysler on the 383 is 10.0, actual is 9.2, built to the NHRA allowed spec of 79.5cc , +.021 deck and .070 max overbore yields close to 11.5 ...

the only dished factory pistons I have seen in a Chrysler was a 73 360 and the 68-69 383 2bbl , I've never seen a dished piston in a 440.

Common core math maybe

10.725 blueprint RB deck
6.768 rod
3.75/2 = 1.875 crank stroke

68-69 2.03 piston is .052 in the hole
66-67 2.00 piston is .082 in the hole

I'm not sure what 70 is because NHRA spec is different for 70, which has 2 piston specs 440-4 and 440-6pk.

The 440-6pk in 70 is the only piston spec where NHRA and factory actually match up, 71???

Update, found three different pistons. First is 1.937 these I think are the 67 440. Next is the 70 at 1.99 next is a 72 HP set with the six-pac rods at 1.875, these are approximate numbers. Did find my earliest 440 block, cast date 7-2-65
About NHRA discrepancies on years deck heights, the 70 piston is the same as 68-69 so who knows where they come up with their figures. If I was running a 70 440-4 I would want the same compression as the 69 engine (need to look at the HP factor on both years, might rate it lower on 70).
Sorry I don't have a full set of the 1.99 pistons, should be a lot available though. I would keep the low ones, sure nice pulling up to the reg. gas pump. That's what I ran in my 64 Plym and would run 7.55 all day.

U
I'm thinking these numbers are what you can creep up on but not go over. In other words, what they will allow. The good and bad thing about the 69-383 height, good for compression,bad because the valve hits when using the spec 440 cam.

My math goes to the ratio of the piston depths or CD that were posted to the piston CH that I listed. I intentionally stayed away from the whole deck height discussion. But without that clarification, my comment was indeed unclear.

I have my original set of 67s. They are 2.00 and some change. 2.003" I think. My 68-69 (have we decided if 70 is the same?) pistons are 2.034", I think. I need to go out measure again, and write these down, as it seems to come up a few times a year.

There's the problem.


Don't use old pistons. You can make plenty of power with low compression. Save your pennies until you can do a proper build.

I wouldn't necessarily use unknown old pistons but I will use inspected old pistons in good shape. Pennies aren't a problem I keep them in the trunks of my AAR, GTS, RTs and several other cars for traction. As much as my cheap nature and a desire to build some things like we use to have to at 16, anyone can go to the Summit website and order pretty much any part of an engine or a car for that matter, it's more fun in my view to build something with minimal investment and in many cases used parts. I have built more than I can count, some blue printed in excess and some thrown together at the track on borrowed parts and a wing and a prayer.

Agreed, that is my understanding of NHRA specs back when I knew some drag racers

Compression height is measured from the center of pin and my 70 standard pistons are under 2 inches and are the same as the TRW L2266 (69). All those measurements I did before are from the pin center.

I measured a '72 440 short block I have.

.155 down in the hole.

I brought it home from the junk yard years ago, threw some new gaskets, the bigger summit brand cam, a new timing chain in it, and ran it in my Diplomat for years.

Had about $600 in it and it ran great. Only reason I even pulled it out was it sounded like it was knocking. Turned out the clutch fork pivot had bent and the fork was rattling around.
Bearings still look great and there's no ridge in the cylinder after years of thrashing it. Its probably gonna end up going in my Newport sometime this summer.

Right, measured from the pin centerline. The actual original replacement piston for 68-69 is not the TRW L2266. That is what they will let you use today for NHRA and allowing block machining to the compression height. This is because this is the only piston available that is close, I suspect. The original 68-69 NHRA replacement piston was the the L2286 (I have these as well). These were discontinued in the late 1980s. I did just measure my 67 original piston, 2.002" although the mic, piston and pin were about 25°F.

The pennies comment was a generic thing. It wasn't intended as an insult to you personal finances.

Pulling engines isn't much fun. Get the most value for your time. Do it once and do it right. I'd much rather drive my car with complete peace of mind than to have a set of used pistons in a half-assed engine build popping into my head.

Proper pistons are relatively inexpensive and I'd rather spend my time doing something other than a second engine rebuild.

So far, and I know this is how to jynx yourself, I have been fortunate enough not to have to go back into any of my engines in a short length of time other than an intake gasket I cant seem to get right on the AAR for whatever reason. I drive my stuff all over the east coast so I'm either confidence in builds or ignorance is bliss as they say (I also carry AAA Premium and have friends in most state I travel in). People/racers/builders use used stuff all the time, I'm not necessarily making an argument for it I'm just saying you cant through the baby out with the bath water. I have opening up a many a engine to inspect it and came out with only new gaskets, some maybe just got rings, bearings and gaskets and I'm not alone in it. I believe you recently suffered a failure on an engine, my bet is you aren't gonna replace the pistons if they inspect good, so you are going to build/reassemble an engine with used pistons.

As for pulling engines being fun, it's all fun to some and even though no one really enjoys doing anything on a car twice, I'm gonna tinker on something for several hours most any given day when I'm home so it don't bug me. I really have to but admittedly I've taken some chances that haven't worked out but rarely have I had a failure when I paid attention and truly inspected an item. It helps that I do it all myself and it will only cost me time if I miss my guess. I enjoy building junkyard cars as much if not more than full restoration, I only have $2000 in my 69 RT and drove it to PA and back last year with minimal drama, it's an absolute hoot to drive.

I guess point it, old parts can be fine if thoroughly inspected and really present no more risk than a new part, at least the old part was made in America at a time when there was some thought given to quality.

Someone building an engine to compete in the class is going to build to the max allowed if they want to be competitive otherwise why bother.

The 68-69 383HP road runner/superbee engine and the 375HP 440 Magnum used the exact same cam.

I used the deck height to drive home that NHRA spec and ACTUAL specs are not the same ... You had the actual piston CH , which are not available in the aftermarket currently , and haven't been for quite some time , if at all ...

"The 68-69 383HP road runner/superbee engine and the 375HP 440 Magnum used the exact same cam."

But, the stocker cam used in the 440, can't be used in the 69 383 because it hits the piston in the allowable blue print specs. So the cam has to be less duration, IF they let us notch the piston we could use the better 440 cam.

How can the 440 cam be different if it's a same cam in both engines from the factory ???

Yes I know that duration is not a checked spec and the deeper in the hole piston of the 69 440 allows more duration with the same lift.

I've said it before , and I'm sure I might have borrowed it from someone ... there is little that is STOCK in NHRA STOCK

Not sure what you're interpreting when reading what I write, I've only talked about NHRA stocker camshafts in NHRA Stock class cars, nothing about factory camshafts. These cams have stock lifts but ungodly duration ( the reason it hits in a 383) Did read today in the old DC book with Larry Shepard, the 69 383 was listed at .021 above deck the rest where below. This was probably given to NHRA for whatever reason back in the day. For STOCK class racing only.

My engine will be getting new pistons. I'll go completely through it to raise the compression and get the most out of it.


I don't like combining used pistons in used bores they've never met.
To me it seems similar to mixing used lifters on a used cam.

I get your point but I like to live dangerously.