BIG BLOCK SWAP

My dilemma is coming up with a fair price to charge for a job.

The patient is a 1970 Satellite with a small block & 904 (his non-running project car).

guy wants to bring me a rusty big block station wagon (the donor) and have me pull both engines and transmissions and convert his small block Satellite to a big block.

the big block runs fine and the transmission is expected to be ok too.
i want to price him fairly but i dont want to loose my a$$ on the job too.
he wants it to be a turn key including installing manifold back dual exhaust. (might price exhaust separately too)

what would be labor for just removal of both and reinstall the big block into the '70?

i do not have to install the small block into the wagon, it will probably go to the scrap yard when im done.
im pricing him separately for replacing oil pan and valve cover gaskets, installing new timing gear set and required gaskets and seals and a water pump. cleaning and painting the engine too.

thanks copper

...............crickets..............



guess's welcome

A shop will charge at LEAST $30.00/hr. How many hours it will take? It depends on 1. Your experience, ability, facility, 2. Tools/equipment 3. Parts to disassemble and re. etc, etc, etc. this si stuff right off the top of my head.

I have done that type of swap once. I took my time (lots of time!) and it came out fine.

My constructive suggestion is make sure to account for the small stuff... throttle linkage, heater hoses, wiring ect. ect. Does the BB carb need at least a rebuild? Or new carb? Inspect, clean and grease the bulkhead connector as minimum. Hopefully the manifolds on the BB are suitable for its new home.

There is lots of stuff that may need attention to make sure the end result is fun and reliable even starting with a basically healthy engine and transmission.

The Satellite may have an 8 1/4 and the wagon an 8 3/4. The Satellite will have a 904 and the wagon a 727. Plan ahead on possible driveshaft length / U joint differences.

must be to have money to pay for a swap like this ? at least a week of work

must be nice to have money to pay for a swap like this ? at least a week of work

great pointers and advice, especially cleaning of the bulkhead connector! thanks.
no one has a dollar number in mind?
i have advised him that no one can anticipate all of the roadblocks when doing swaps.
every swap i have done or that have been done in my shops (i have assisted with) have had roadblocks. however, this swap IIRC should not have too many difficult roadblocks. minor wiring, radiator, hoses, PS hoses, driveshaft (i think he has the 8.75 so i dont expect trouble) he understands that if a part is bad or doesnt fit, its on him not me or my shop, im just covering the labor to install it within reason. i need to come up with a price.

let me add this
the swaps we have done have been for ourselves.
some have been for us to make sellable a car that we bought missing drivetrain or converting /6 or grossly damaged drivetrains to more desireable rides.

should i post the swap as it is being done?
would it be helpful for anyone to have it documented with pictures?
roadblocks and how we correct them?...................



well the first thing is getting the job so lets seem some realistic numbers from all you gearheads and mopar veterans. ......................
in labor dollar amounts please for you jokers out there.

If he doesnt have 2k to burn, he needs his own tool kit.There will be a lot of unaccounted for time.Ever try to clean an old complete engine for paint? trying to on my 440 for my truck right now. Its a nightmare. Do they both have same alternators? The wagon may have the big one.Exhaust is probably 3 or 4 hundred, etc, etc, etc.

For it to be attractive to me to do the work, I'd be looking for $1500-$2000. I'm not a professional mechanic, but I have a decent shop and skill.

First, you have to figure out what your time is worth. Then, decide EXACTLY what he expects you to do. As said before there will be lots of time eaten up on this project in the way of "Oh by the way", and "While we're at it" jobs. Also, get in writing who is expected to furnish fluids, filters, cleaners, paints, parts, etc.. Nothing like fronting the guy the supplies and then having him try to stiff you.

Make sure the donor motor/trans are in good working order BEFORE you pull them. His idea of good running and your idea may be way different, and if it runs like crap when done it WILL be your fault in his eyes.

Is the donor wagon a similar year B body too or is it a C body? Add in all the things that won't work in the B body if it is.

Even at a cheap price like $30/hr, I can see this running up to $5000 easy enough if he wants you to supply all the parts.

If the wagon is the same year b-body with the proper k-frame....and you have the equipment.....drop them both out the bottom.......slip the BB/trans/k-member in the Satellite......$1,000.....add in cost of driveshaft, exhaust, Fluids, etc., easy $1,000 afternoon

It seems like it is now bracketed... between one day and one week!

It depends on how you are setup and a lot on what the customer really expects. Just get it swapped and running under its own power? Or cleaned up, serviced and ready for hopefully trouble free service?

Maybe best to think in stages. Pull the BB, clean, re-seal, service it. Clean up the tranny or not? Getting baked on grime off is a good 2 hours I think. Pull the SB + 904. Clean up the engine compartment and K frame. Even a quick job will be a couple hours with a pressure washer to help. Install BB and 727. Setup throttle and kick down, modify wiring ect. ect.

With a good shop + experience I think you are looking at several days minimum to do a decent but simple job. You need to price your time as you see fit... and make sure parts cost is accounted for.

"Do not quote a total price".
No way to account for parts and time in advance.
You never know what you are going to run into.
Don't let the owner supply parts.
You don't know what quality he might get,
or if the parts would even be correct.
Then, finding hard to find parts could slow down progress.
Make sure to supply receipts for parts.
$30.00 an hour is rather cheap today.
I would get a signature on some kind of agreement.
People have a habit of walking away from money problems today...

Good Luck.
I hope it works out fine and is a fun project.

great advice!
i agree its more like a weeks work than it is a day for one guy to complete.
1.5 to 2 days to have both pulled and cleaning of the engine compartment, "K" frame and engine transmission degreased.
1 day to do timing gear set, pan, intake, valve cover gaskets, water pump and front crank seal then paint. may install it end of day 3.
2 days left for brackets, belts, hoses, radiator and shroud, tune and wiring to convert to electronic ignition.
with a small team of skilled mopar gear heads it would be a long weekend job (minus roadblocks)

im thinking around $2500+

fluids; trans service, oil and filter, coolant, power steering add to the bill too. lets not forget the dual exhaust system

Wow and I thought the shops were crooks.

Flat rate of $30hr and he pays for parts.

what shops charge only $30 per hour?

maybe you would like to do the job and stand behind you work for $30/hr brian?
your 3 weeks at 30 are a higher cost than my week at 60!

guys, i think that rate was back in the late '70's early '80's

Are talking about having a shop do it?

yes my shop.

The only way to bill it out is BY THE HOUR! Spend some time putting everything out on paper, then double the time you think it will take. Double that again.
\Talk to your potential customer, lay out the build plan, what you will do and the estimated times. Broken, rusty, greasy, mismatched parts are HIS problem not yours- don't let that change. This is a lot of work and plenty of room for failure. One thing I will throw out, call a few quality shops in your area and ask what their posted rate is, you can add 50% for custom work. The last shop I worked in was $85/hour and that was 10 years ago. Also, NO WARRANTY on customer supplied parts. That markup is to CYA when something breaks.

What's the donor vehicle - B or C body? And before I even touched that job I'd make sure the donor stuff is good before turning a single wrench, meaning it drives, shifts, doesn't overheat, etc; otherwise the finger pointing can ensue and you may be asked to fix a lot of stuff that wasn't part of the swap. Even to do a compression test, tune up and trans filter/band adjustment while it's still in the wagon, fresh carb rebuild if needed, etc. CYA...shake out any problems before pulling it from the wagon, while it's in the wagon. And double check the exhaust manifolds if you're reusing C body - because B and C body are going to be different. I seem to recall C body exiting on the driver side at a different angle than a B body.

I swapped my 72 Dart from /6 to 360. My donor was a 79 Cordoba, so not much of a donor for this type of swap.

I had almost everything all lined up before hand, took me a Sunday to do it.

But I had to swap K members, no conversion mounts in 93.

Did it in a carport with a few air tools but mostly hand tools.

I pulled the 360/a999 out of the Doba aforehand, cleaned it up, inspected it, regasketed it and painted it before the Sunday thrash.

What I did not have before hand was the proper throttle cable, though the /6 one worked, a kickdown that worked in an A body, boneyard F body supplied it on Monday, and an exhaust, rigged up a temporary one using the Doba's manifolds and Y pipe till I could get it to the muffler shop.

So, 8 hours for the swap at $100/hr is $800, not sure where triple that is coming from. at $30/hr that's $240 worth of labor, not sure where 10x that is coming from either.

What, exactly, is the donor? Cause if it's a 70 B wagon it's a simple swap.

thank you Skeptic and Sixpak thats how ive been thinking.
Supercuda, you need to reread the post. its not just an install.
donor is a '73 B Satellite wagon
i have early motor mounts ('73 is a spool mount IIRC)

Actually the most reasonable local shop here charges double that plus 15 $ more.
You can bet the parts cost extra.
Don't know of any shop that would install your parts.
None would touch a swap with a used motor or trans either.
Liability issues prevent that stuff.
Those would have to be shipped to the local re-builder.
Also on your dime.
Several grand there alone.

Schumacher conversion mounts if its a small/6 cylinder K member.
Lokar or equivalent trans kick down and accelerator cable set up.
B Body headers.
26 inch radiator .
original trans mount should work.
Try doing this in a early A body car.
This car is a breeze.
Should be done and driving in three days tops.

Hmm, musta misunderstood this: what would be labor for just removal of both and reinstall the big block into the '70?

4K easy ... I did this on my 67 Satellite and you would be surprised the detail and all the little bugs to work out to make it turnkey... just MHO... the fun just begins when you drop the BB in !!

73 b body is quite different from 70. Motor mount is definitely different. Trans mount too.
73 radiator and shroud are different, can be made to work but takes time.
Exhaust manifold should be OK, engine accessories should work but iirc PS mount may be a problem. If the wagon has ac, its all different, get a correct 70 bb setup.
Big block t bars will be good to have but the 73 don't fit.
I agree to get the engine and trans functioning in the wagon first. I'd pull the wagon drivetrains and let the owner clean and detail it as desired. That way you can push the wagon out, the sattelite can stay drivable and you don't have a cluster in your shop. Figure 4-6 hours pulling parts from the wagon.
Pulling the drive train from the sattelite about 3-4 hours, figure 6-8 for install. If transmission is different between vehicles (904 vs727) you will need to adjust the driveshaft. The 73 isn't the right length.

Cleaning and detailing the engine compartment is gonna eat up a day at least.

supercuda, thanks for answering my original post question.(many have completely avoided posting dollar/labor numbers)
are you sticking with it being an 8 hour job though?

what to do about the trans mount?
copper

Not sure how applicable it may be to you since it was a /6 to LA swap in an A body, but just trying to give you an idea.

I had pretty much everything lined up before the swap, including the engine from the donor pulled, cleaned, regasketed, rebearinged, new core plugs and painted. So whatever time needs to be added for that, I forget as it was over a couple days I did that. Probably another 6-8 there if you are working alone with hand tools only.

Mount location is in the same spot as far as I know, just bolt the 70 mount to the 73 trans, Rockauto shows the 70 trans mount the same regardless of engine choice. But the 73 is the spool type, if the 73 trans crossmember will bolt in (not a B body guy so I dunno) I'd prefer the 73 type trans mount myself.

So my 8 hours to swap was the physical part of actually pulling the /6 out and putting the prepped 360 in, I did spend a few hours getting all the stuff I thought I would need gathered up beforehand (radiator, K member, engine mounts, hoses, belts, etc). Being an A body guy I had pretty much already known what I needed to do this swap so planning/research time was already done. The only help I got during the swap was I had my old man help me pull the hood before he left for work and put it back on when he got home.

I few things almost bit me, the Dart had working AC, the 79 Doba had AC too, but the compressor is in different locations and the /6 hoses would not mount up to the compressor on the /360, wrong lengths. But the Doba's hoses did, so I lucked out there. Some of the wires needed a bit of addressing, coil + wire is all I remember specifically, it was way long. I think all the rest just fell into place, but I can tell you the wiring there for an LA to RB swap will require lengthening. Alternator wiring pretty much fit.

supercuda, thanks for taking the time to respond and advise!
it certainly is going to be an adventure.