Rough running untill fully warm

440, 915 heads, Lunati voodoo 302 hyd. cam, Edelbrock 800 Thunder AVS, Torker 2, FBO ignition, 2" headers, manual trans:
Starts easy and idles ok also after choke is fully open but driveability is not good untill engine is fully warmed like after 10 minutes or more of driving. Car needs lots of attention to clutch- and accelerator pedal use to function ok without lugging or bogging down at rpm,s below 2000. Going idle to wot before it is fully warmed will make a huge bog - It completely dies. Acc pump set for longest stroke and a huge .043 squirter still makes this happend. A/F meter reads low 14's at idle and cruise, 13,5 loaded and around 12,5 at wot. Best idle micture setting with the screws out about 1,5 turns.
Prior to installing the a/f meter I had bigger jets in the carb but it acted the same when not fully warm. Even when warm it feels like it is on the edge of running too lean and might sometimes bog some when floored. All sympthoms tells me it is to lean but the a/f meter don't... and it has been calibrated.
Am I overlooking something? Thinking lifter preload, pcv valve or other not obvious things that can make for thermic problems?
Also need to mention that I can not tune away a small lean surge going slowly from cruise to heavier load. Tried different springs and jettings to no vail. Works best with purple spring. What do you suggest?

Don't know of I'm missing something here but every carbureted vehicle I've ever owned will bog down under acceleration when cold and will not function correctly till warmed up

that's the way both of my cars are too, no choke. carbs.
they are lean until it warms up, they will idle but it's a little slow, then the idle comes around as they warm up.
off idle transition is lean so it's a little tricky, if i try to really give them a stab of the throttle then they do the lean backfire or stumble/stall.

to drive them when cold they like to have the rpms around 1500-2000 rpm or so, once they get some heat in them i let the trans shift into third and let the rpms drop...

In some grade yes but this is bad and the driveability is on the edge until it reaches 180-190 F. If that is normal I am fine with that but it sure would have been nice to make it run good quite a bit earlier. Ofcourse the manual trans makes it more pronounced.

So I am not alone then:) The colder climate here also makes it worse. My other 440 car with a 800 Carter AVS wakes up a lot faster. Thinking the Carters and Edelbrocks might struggle more with this. I had a couple of cars with Holleys and they drove a lot better until fully warmed but that might be in their nature - always pouring plenty of gas:)

It is the intake manifold that must be warm. You can fully warm up the intake and with the short block, oil and even water cold. It will not bog.

I find big port intakes are the worst offenders. You either need to choke the carburetor which Im not recommending or switch to fuel injection.

This is not the solution you are asking for but I think throttling up a cold engine is bad news.

that sounds annoying, mine are auto cars with holleys. so yes maybe the manual trans and the edelbrocks are just more finicky. or maybe you are the edge of too lean fully warm and that is making the cold driving even worse...

Have you checked for an intake manifold/carb base leak?These will sometimes seal after warmup.I'd do a cold engine leak-down test as well to check primarily for leaks beteen cylinders.What head gaskets does the engine have,steel possibly that need retorquing?How old is the engine build? ~RT

Are you directing any exhaust thru the intake manifold to warm it up, or are the crossover ports blocked? If not, it will take a much longer time for the intake to warm up. That's what heat risers are designed to do.

Is the Torker 2 a single plane intake as I believe it might be? If so, that compounds the problem over a dual plane on a cold manifold.

Without exhaust crossover in a cold climate, likely an intake will not even reach room temperature. I existed for 30 years in our state of Nebraska,,,not Norway but close enough for government work.

can you borrow another carb to quickly elim or confirm it as the culprit? I would put some thin superformance gaskets on either side of the metal valley pan (vac leak). what is your timing & ported or manifold. there is definitily an issue that I wouldn't be comfortable with

Wow - I'll try to answear your questions:

-I am not going to race a cold engine. Working on this to get the most out of my gear (it's part of our hobby, right?)

-Engine and carb has been in the car for 10 years but not ran much and has always been like this. No vacuum leaks as far as I can see. I run gaskets on both sides of the valley pan, changed out a bad pcv valve last year. It's a 68 Charger so I always check the vacuum lines out of the carb.

-Don't know what head gaskets were used

-The build is at least 10 years old but hasn't been driven more than 200-400 miles pr year.

-Torker 2 is a singel plane with no heating.

-I do not have easy access to another carb.

What are outside temperatures when experiencing your concerns. If 70 degree 'F', engine start and initial performance will be dramatically different than at 5 degree 'F'. I will leave it to you to do the Celsius conversions.

The intake that you are running unlikely will ever give you decent cold weather performance or economy given its lack of crossover exhaust porting to quickly warm it up,,,and is unlikely to ever warm sufficiently for optimum economy.

In warmer weather you should not even need a choke to start the engine. The fact that you indicate that it is closed when starting the engine suggests that your poor performance is occurring in very cold weather. Hence the need for a rapidly warming up intake, which you do not have.

In warmer weather, intake manifold warming even without crossover or heat riser will be quite rapid,,,even with a single plane intake.

Your other option is to leave the choke closed for an extended period of time until engine finally warms up,,,,just not a good option,,,poor performance and economy and rapidly polluted oil and a likely more quickly rusted out exhaust system if you use for a lot of shorter trips.

I only drive the car in summer season and outside temps will wary from 50 to 80 F. Choke works best between 0 and -2 (lighter spring tension) on the housing. Setting it firmer makes it too rich after a minute or so.

The intake manifold is your biggest issue. Between 40 and 60 is about the worst temp range to adjust a carbed motor. its too cold without a choke, and its too warm for the choke to stay on long enough to get past the lean stumble. Opening up the exhaust crossover in the intake would probably solve most of your problem.

Short of changing the intake, or setting up the choke more rich, the only other option is to introduce warmer air into the intake.
A few ways to do that, off the top of my head:
1, If you running an open air filter, get one that is closed for your winter driving. Restricting the amount of cold air available to the carb will help your lean condition.
2 Pull warm air off the exhaust and run it through the thermostat controlled snorkel on the closed air filter housing, if you have a dual snorkel housing, one heated snorkel should be enough to do the job. This will require a vacuum source for the thermostatic air door to open and close, and a tube attached to the header/exhaust manifold duct-ed to the snorkel.
3, If your running a heater core with functioning heat, you can pull a heater hose close to the carb to warm up the carb.
4, Another thought is that maybe you can run a copper tube filled with engine coolant between the bottom of the intake and the valley pan to warm up the intake. This could be controlled to shut off once the engine reaches operating temp.

#1 & #2 are better options. Gene

The factory didn't use an electric choke like the Thunder uses. So part of the problem is that it has no idea what the engine temp is.

I ran an Edelbrock Performer on my 64 300, but I used a manual choke. Pull it out, drive till it warmed up and pushed it in. Ran fine in all weather, even below freezing. On my 413 you'd know when it needed pushed in because it would bog with the choke on and it warmed up. Open element air filter (no warm air), stock intake (with exhaust crossover).

Tuning to an AF ratio is not best. Tuning to what the engine wants is best, you can note the AF ratio if you want, but if it needs more fuel, then it needs more fuel. Especially when running an unheated intake that doesn't help fuel atomization.

Supercuda: Nice to hear your opinion on a/f readings. I have been thinking the same thing and I know the car was more forgiving with bigger jets in it even thou the a/f would read about 1.0 richer than where I am at now. Still finky when col thou.

Robert: Forgot to answer one of your Q's: I run 20 degrees initial on manifold vacuum. Distributor is set up for that and if I remember right it will idle at 28 degrees. It will instant drop to 20 when opened up. Total is 35-36 all in by 2.500 rpm.
Car runs ok otherwise. Heavy Charger, runs 8,70 in the 1/8 mile.

Another thing I just noticed was at outside temps about 60F I parked the car for 1,5 hours after warmed and it had crisp and clean throttle respons when fired back up but got a slight bog after driving a minute before it got ok again. Thinking this points to the suggestions for a too cold intake. Like the intake stayed heated under the hood in the warm car for more than an hour but got cooled down enough to bog when the car got directly up to speed.
Going to put the bigger jet back in tonight an note the difference in driveability and a/f readings.

Actually I wrote something wrong - the Torker 2 HAS heat crossover ports. But on my engine a heat crossover blocking valley pan was used. I guess it is a good idea to open up the heat crossover! With the issues I have it might be worth the hazzle.

Well, it couldn't hurt and could be a cheap fix.

edit - I see you have headers, not too sure how well it'll function with headers. But you can try.

That's what those ports are there for. It is not recommended to close them off for street use except for special circumstances such as racing and other such performance purposes.

Even with headers, I believe you will get enough heat to the intake to help. It may take a little longer to get the intake warmed up, then it would with the manifolds & the heat riser functioning, but it still should be a noticeable improvement. Over time, you may have to pull the intake and clean the carbon build up out the crossover ports since you won't have the forced hot air passing through that the hear riser causes. Gene

I see. Experience with this anyone? How is the head cross over port shaped/constructed? Is it just a channel through the head? Then it won't lead much heat up to the manifold but maybe enough to cut the warm-up time some?

Yes, the crossover is a rectangle shape at the intake manifold edge of the heads (below that curved hollow at the center of the head) and intake, but changes shape as it passes through the head to the exhaust ports, and also changes shape as it passes through the intake manifold itself.

When the weighted and spring loaded flapper valve (heat riser valve) on one exhaust manifold (I believe its the right manifold, its been a few years) closes, it sends the exhaust back through the port on the head, under the pendulum on the intake, through the port on other head, and into the exhaust. If the flapper valve doesn't close, or isn't there, the exhaust heat drifts up (heat rises) to the intake. Over time (generally 8-10 years), the carbon from the exhaust plugs up the ports under the intake and at the intake manifold end of the heads. That carbon needs to be dug (chiseled) out of the ports.

As long as the ports are clean, there should be enough heat passing into the intake to help the cold running condition for several years. Gene

Good reading Poorboy. How does the exhaust enter the crossover - I know where it comes out of the head an into the intake but how is it routed from the combustion chamber and into this channel? Part of the reason why I ask this is that I know my crossover ports are carbon plugged and need to be cleaned out. Never bothered to do this as this function not was going to be used.

Op has stated that his installed valley cover pan has the close the cross over option. It was suggested very early on in this thread that his intake may not have this port,,,,blocking with the valley pan will give indentical results,,,,a cold or very slow to warm up intake.

Again I repeat, this is not recommended for a normal street driven engine. The lack of early and adequate heat to his intake manifold as oft repeated in this thread is a leading candidate for the erratic running issues that he had described.

The factory installed these ports for a good reason. Not anticipating they might be disabled by some tuner with a better idea.

Now we know my intake has crossover port and it should be used. I will do that but have to open up the carboned up ports in the heads and fiddle with the valley pan. Can the head ports be all cleaned up from the intake side? I still want to know how the exhaust gasses is routed from the combustion chamber to the outlet port on the heads.

The center port in the head ties into the exhaust port, the flapper in the manifold routes exhaust from that side, thru the intake to the other side till it warms up and the flapper opens. With headers the flapper is moot since headers do not generally have them.

A vacuum and a screwdriver is all you need to clean those ports out.

I, personally, have never seen it plug up and I've been fooling with Mopars for 30+ years. Some say it happens, I wonder why?

Great, Supercuda! My 440 came out of a '67 Chrysler 300 cab and the crossover ports is completely glogged with carbon deposits. So is there a passage from one or all exhaust runners to the crossover port in the heads?

In the head, just one port if I recall correctly, I haven't played with a big block in 20 years. However, in the stock application the passenger side manifold, with the flapper in the outlet port directs all 4 cylinders exhaust thru the intake.

I can't find a good drawing of how it works.

what about all the aftermarket heads that have no crossover?
my 526 has RPM heads, and a holley 1000cfm hp carb, with no choke housing. no issues with cold start/warm up.

Do you live in Norway?

Your distributor is hooked up to manifold vacuum, and not ported, correct?

What is your vacuum in drive?

At what vacuum does the vacuum advance start advancing?

If vacuum in drive is below where the vac advance engages, you will have issues, particularly when cold. If that's the case, you'll need to use a hex key in the nipple of the vacuum can to lower the point that it engages, to prevent that overlap.

Easiest way to test this is with a mity-vac and timing light, or just take the distributor cap off and watch for it to move.

Yes what about that?

Supercuda: Norway yes!

Hoozie: Running manifold vacuum - not ported. No vacuum reading in drive as it is a manual. Idles at 12hg vacuum. Not sure at which vacuum the advance kicks in but should be well under 12 hg as it is all in at idle.

Edelbrock carbs and open/single plane Torker-intakes don't always like to play well together.

Try installing a 1", or better, a 2" spacer under the carb and see how the engine likes that. (But make sure the spacer has 4 holes, not the 'open' type.)

The spacer mostlikely will improve the engine's vacuum-'signal' to the carb and it in turn, will react much better and quicker to changes in the throttle.

General 68:
If you are running the FBO manifold distributor like I do, I know mine specifies a minimum of 12" vacuum per Don. I tested mine and my timing at idle stays solid down to 11.5", then below that the timing drops off. You might be right on the edge unless Don did something different with your setup.

Ok, running manifold vacuum is one of the problems.

As you open the throttle manifold vacuum drops and timing backs off causing a similar problem to what you are seeing.

As a test run ported and see if that helps.

Yep, that low of vacuum at idle is most likely the problem. Mine idles at 17", and sits at 14" in drive. Vac advance doesn't drop out until 10".

Like supercuda says, I bet you're right on the edge of advance. As soon as you put some load on it, the advance goes away and your idle drops. This would be exacerbated when it's cold.

Might be on to something here guys. I'll start with plugging the vacuum advance for a test, keep the static 20 degree advance, reset the idle micture and go from there.

BINGO! (I think). Plugged the vacuum advance and it acted better on the choke. No sure how well it drives after that as it was still touchy during warm up but needed more trottle opening from the idle screw (ofcourse, after losing 8 degrees vacuum advance) and readjusting the idle mixture. Runs super when warm. Had already put back the bigger jets. Needs some more testing but all in all it is a lot better.
I was debating the manifold vacuum with Don a couple of years ago but didn't get any love.
Can't wait to see how it drives at next cold start! Thanks a bunch all!!

Once it's running well, you'll want to add the vac advance back to the ported side so during cruise you still have the additional timing and cleaner burn.

Yes vacuum advance will be hooked up after some more testing.

The ported advance taps in above the throttle blades and has no effect at idle. The fact that your car behaves differently with it disconnected would suggest that it was connected to the wrong place before. At idle you should be able to stick your finger over the carburetor fitting and not feel suction.