Front end allignment ?

I have a 72 Plymouth roadrunner I recently installed some tubular upper control arms. Took the car to the goodyear place in town and had the alignment done. Car now drives like crap seems to wonder all over and not very stable at highway speeds. Here is the print out they gave me do these specs look good. Should I find a different shop. They also said they had a hard time because I have wider tires in the rear. Never heard of that before.

that might have made it harder to measure the thrust angle but I am just thinking out loud & here is a BTT for ya

Why did they set the camber like that? Do you have manual or power steering? It needs more caster and get the camber in spec. They should do this for free, the chart shows that they did it wrong.

I have power steering.

Did they ask you your driving style when you went in? Or did they just do what they wanted. I would expect to see at least 1.5+ caster and the camber should be even side to side, not differing by .9.

They just did what they wanted. I could tell they were not thrilled about working on the car. I guess I need to find a new shop.

Sometimes you can turn the cams as far as they can go and you still can't get the camber and caster in the green. These cars are old and you never know how the frame is. Sometimes you have to make a compromise to get the camber and caster readings close to being correct. I would have sacrificed some caster to get the camber a little closer and just try to even out the cross caster.
You have to remember that most guys won't spend the extra time to get it right because it only pays a certain amount on the flat rate clock.
If you lived closer I would be able to get it in a little better

Gus

Get pictures of your front and rear adjustment cams for each side of the car. Post them and we'll have an idea of what adjustment is left. And if they got lazy or over their head doing the alignment.

Many new cars don't have camber or caster adjustment. A lot of alignment techs at lower level high volume (tire) shops aren't the most skilled and able to think outside the cookie cutter.

Find the shop of the local autocross guys use.

Most if not all tubular control arms allow increased caster. I consider 3* the bare minimum. The high-end Euro cars that track like they're on rails use as much as 7*. Unless you're doing a lot of cornering, 0-1* of neg camber. 1/16" - 1/8" toe-in for the street. Maybe a bit (.2-.3) more caster on the RF if your roads are more crowned. 3* neg camber on the street is where front tire wear gets irregular, but I've run 1-2* neg without issues on a couple of "handling" cars.
You need to find a shop that likes older cars & knows how to do a proper setup, not just per old specs; clues will be some kind of racing experience and a no-BS conversation.
As for the wider rear tires, that didn't bother my guy on my drag car (7.10 fronts, 13X31 rears)...and that thing goes absolutely straight @ 130.

Like Gus said many times you cant get no more then 1 to 2 pos caster and keep the chamber in specs with stock control arms. I would think with tubular they could get more pos caster.
I also agree with Gus that I would sacrifice a little caster to try and get that left side chamber closer to 0 like the other side. Also I know many of the front end guys out there that are flat rate dont care what the actual reading is as all they do is get the reading to be green which means its in specs but could be on the high end. Its like if you had a chamber spec of 0 plus or minus 1 degree the car could have minus 1 degree chamber on the right front and plus 1 degree chamber on the left front and still show green on the screen and be in specs. But when you consider the true readings both front tires are leaning to the left side. I would never let a car go out like that but the machine would have the readings showing in the green which is in specs but both sides are at the far end working against each other. Same for caster. I like to get as much pos caster as I can to help the car handle better in most cases. And some guys learn how to use the machine but dont understand front ends to well.
Here is what a front end guy who worked at the Dodge dealer I worked at told me on day when a Caravan had just the left front tire worn on the outer edge. I told the service manager when we looked at the car and the customers complaint about the L/f tire worn on the outer edge it had to be a chamber problem as the R/f tire looked perfect. The guy they hired to do just front end alignments said to us it could be the toe on the left front ???? I said to him thats not possible because the front tires are tied together and both would wear the same and he still said oh no I have seen the machine show just toe out on one front tire but not the other ??? And I thought to myself........and this is the guy who should knows front ends inside and out. So I agree I would find a shop with someone who will set your car right and even if you have to slip him a little cash tip to make sure he does it right for you its worth it. Ron

Thanks for the reply's. I look around for a shop that can set this thing up better. I will get some pic's of the cam adjusters this afternoon.

Instead of looking at the standard, big-name franchise shops, maybe you can find an independent guy? I use a guy who has his own shop, has been around for a long time and knows old cars. Good luck.

I agree lots of times they wont be close.My 65 I even used the offset bushings and wasnt close.But I did get it pretty even.My kids 62 300 same thing.that is a ton of toe.I like about .08 or .10 at most.Miss not having the shop to do my stuff now.Rocky

Why would you install tubular A-arms and not tell the shop what kind of alignment you want?

The lack of caster most likely makes the steering feel unsecure.

Take it back and tell them to put 2005 Mustang GT specs on it.

What specs would that be?

You might see if you have a good frame and alignment shop nearby. They are usually a bit sharper than the local chain stores who deal with Honda's and Toyota's.

Back in 94 when I finished My Charger I took it to the closest place which was a goodyear store. The guy worked on it for about 4 hours, gave me a print out etc. When leaving the parking lot I almost took out a pole due to steering wheel not returning. I then took it to a frame and alignment shop that I normally used. He asked if I had tried aligning it myself to which I said No, Why did you ask? he responded with it wasn't too bad for an eyeball job. 45 Minutes later I drove out and the car hasn't been touched since.

Here are some pictures of the adjusting bolts. First one is right side front second is right side rear.

First one is left side front second one is left side rear.

Are you calling the "right" side the passenger side?

In the pictures of the rear adjusters, which direction in the tire (toward the outside of the car)?

In all the pictures, is upwards in the picture also upwards on the car?


If I'm interpreting the directions correct, the left/driver side rear is pulled all the way inwards to for max neg camber and max positive caster. And the left/drivers side front is in the middle of the adjustment range.

So...if you move the front inward you get closer to 0 deg camber, but you loose caster. If you move the front outward you get more neg camber (worse), and you gain caster.

Caster is considered a "non tire wearing" adjustment (at extreme positive caster you can increase some wear). Camber is a tire wearing condition.

**Something is going on the drivers side** Does look rusty. Start investigating from there. Like the rear chassis A-arm mount in pushed outward or the front chassis A-arm mount is pushed inward.


Problem is...the right/passenger side is maxed out to is LEAST amount of caster. So if you change the left/drivers toward 0 deg camber and loose some caster, the end result will be more caster on right/pass side then left/drv side. They call the cross caster. Cars will pull slightly to the side with the greater positive caster.

Actually, my guess is the alignment tech spend extra time on this trying to juggle the right combo to put makeup on a monkey of a situation.


Do you have stock strut rods? Do you have Poly strut bushings?

Yes you are correct about the pic's. Front end was rebuilt with stock bushing. Yes I have stock strut rods.

Has the Lower Control arm bushing stud to K-member hole been repaired? Any cracking that could cause flexing?

Any drivers side collisions? Are there factory spot welds on the inner fender? At joint to the radiator support?



You could try running an adjustable strut rod on the left side and slightly pull the LCA forward.

-You have to disconnect the lower ball joint, back off the T-bar all the way, and adjust the strut rod too short.

-Then feel the natural up and down movement of the LCA and ride height.

-Then push the LCA forward before it feels like it's binding or pinching the LCA rubber bushing. Then adjust the strut rod to that new length so the back strut bushing is against the K-member.

Or measure your old strut rod and make the new one 1/2" shorter. Theatrically that will give you around 3 deg positive caster assuming UBJ to LBJ is roughly 9"


If you could add 3 deg pos caster I think that would net you 2-3 deg caster with 1/4 deg negative camber.

After that you can adjust the right side to match. And you appear to have plenty of adjustment to do that.

That's sort of a band aid until you for sure identify what is going on in the left front. And figure if the issue is stable and not going to worsen. Or if want to attempt to fix it.

I have had this car for 22 years and it took 16 years to restore it. As far as I know it has never been hit anywhere. A friend of mine who has a body shop did all the body work and paint. I may have to pull the lower control arm back off maybe I missed something when I put it all back together.

+7* caster left and right, -.75* camber left and right, +1* toe.

Obviously they won't hit the caster number, which is fine as any positive you can get is better than stock, but it gives them a late model target that will be in any alignment computer, at any shop, nationwide, that any toe and go tech can likely perform.

This is why you do not tell them to use these 2005 mustang specs, it will confuse them more than they are now. Never get half of that caster spec on a stock suspension.

Carman you need to get that car in the garage and pull all those cams out and clean the rust off of the body where the cams fit. Next clean and lube all the cams and hardware or find some new ones. It's really hard to get a smooth movement out of the cams in that condition. If I was doing the alignment I would charge an extra $50 to deal with the rusted cams
Don't ever bring a car to the alignment shop with all that paint and rust on the cams because the alignment won't stay in place because you cant torque the nuts down properly.You need to make sure you have clean rust free surfaces with some good wheel bearing grease on the bolts.
By the way I probably align over 100 Toyota cars and trucks every year and just because I work on imports for a living doesn't mean I can't do Mopars
Gus

I've encountered the opposite;
Well lubed cams won't hold their setting very long (on a daily driver).

The trick is to only put some grease on the cam-bolts, and not the cams themself. They need all the grip to maintain their setting.

I disagree, but certainly your mileage may vary. When they fail to hit that spec, you look at the numbers, thank them for the effort, and walk out of the shop with maximum positive caster. Even if it is half of the mustang spec, its more than the stock specs, which will achieve a better driving vehicle, unless you insist on using F70 bias plys under your car.

There is no reason why a tubular upper arm suspension, which the OP has, can't hit those numbers and there are some on this board who have achieved more than that.

I believe your problem is two-fold:
1. The caster is far off side to side
2. The toe-in needs to be greater especially with larger tires.

Comparing the original toe-in, the car most likely steered better than after they aligned the car.
Ron

Well OK, if you look at his adjuster bolts the left side rear one is all the way in so caster is maxed at that wheel and both sides is less than one degree. Where is the 7 degrees here?

Are these adjustable control arms? If yes are the arms set right?

Fwiw years ago I did some work for a guy with a stealth. He bought adjustable rear arms.

I st the factory adjusters to center, then adjusted the arms . this allowed the arms to make the big changes and kept the factory adjusters for fine tuning.

And I agree the factory specs for vintage muscle cars are completely out dated.

It isn't there in its current configuration.

The whole thing was not assembled correctly to begin with. Every aftermarket tubular upper control arm out there is designed with an additional 3-4* of positive caster in them. With this built in improvement, the fact that they couldn't achieve even that amount means it was not put together correctly.

I'm willing to bet that achieving max positive caster was never a consideration during assembly because if it was, strut bushings, strut rod length, and lower control arm placement would have been forefront in consideration during assembly. Doing this and using offset bushing in stock control arms could easily get 3-4* positive. Swap to an aftermarket arm with an extra 3-4*, and 7* should be easily achievable.

Dialing in possible alignment numbers begins with the basic assembly of the suspension. Just like building horsepower begins with degreeing a cam to optimize valve events, so too should suspension be assembled with precision and forethought at the numbers to improve its performance.

SNAFU

Systems normal all fouled up

Tc, arms on wrong sides?

Just went through all this with my 73 "Cuda. One thing not mentioned was ride height. I set mine before the alignment shop visit. If that is off, the rest of the alignment will be off and alignment racks never mention it anymore.
I could not get any positive caster out of mine so I went with tubular upper arms as well.
Final alignment with the new arms was +3.5 left +3.4 right caster. Camber was -.6 left and -.7 right.
The guy did not use any canned settings but went online to research it. One of the places he looked was here on Moparts.
The results to me were astonishing, it has not handled like this in 35 years. I am very happy.
Craig.

So Fab64 where is this shop? I am in SoCal also and am looking for an alignment shop.
Thanks, Rod

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Possibly. Unlikely, but certainly possible.

Further up, OP said it was rebuilt with stock bushings. That typically means there is not a strut rod problem, but I'd certainly recommend looking into the whole strut rod and lower control arm relationship to the K-frame. If this combination of parts is not fully seated, the lower arm will be set too far back and cause the same inability to get caster.

Ok just a little update i have removed the entire suspension from the car and am going over everything. I have purchased new strut rod's cam adjusting bolt's and have rebuilt the lower control arm's by cutting the weld where the bump stop bolt's to and squeezed the ends by the torsion bar socket closer together to get rid of all the sloppy play in them. I also added the stiffening plates to the bottom of the control arm's.I thought at first that i might have had the upper arm's i wrong but after getting it all apart the were right.

Right way

Wrong way.

Buddy up the road from me brought these down. Gonna try and set it up myself first.Say's he uses them on his race car.I also found a shop with some old timers that still work there. I had forgot all about this place. So we will see what happens once i get it all back together.

The first UCA picture #2151970 should be the RH passenger side. The second side should be the LH drivers side.
One time I went to a guys house to buy some parts. He was working on a 70 Hemi Challenger. Smart guy, I'm talking an actual Rocket scientist.(Jet Propulsion) He had his upper control arms in wrong, left for right! People make mistakes.

Sorry, just saw this. I use Clark's House of Suspension, in Lake Forest, CA.

are those firm feel arms??

Nope they are from pst.