Still not enough caster even with Moog offsets installed.

I just got my front end aligned after my complete rebuild. I turned out ok but the alignment guy could only get about a zero degree caster. I installed the Moog offsets when I rebuilt everything. I guess I should be glad that I installed them, but was hoping to have a better alignment outcome. As far as I can remember, he explained that he used the camber to gain as much caster as he could. I think the car is in spec because the program had all the numbers turn from red to green as he made adjustments.
He said the best fix would be adjustable struts, so maybe I will install those at some point.
He also found that my rear axle housing is pointing outward on one side by about 1/8 inch, and I also have an inner tie rod end with reversed threads, I guess someone installed two inners or two outers on the one side, unfortunately the sleeve is now cross threaded. I may fix that at the same time I install the adjustable struts, and then get it re-aligned.

you might check the cost vs the firm feel upper control arms instead.
I went that route instead of the moog bushings.

also if you are going to change out the sleeve, you might consider ordering the 74 newport sleeves and tie rod ends. as it gives you the larger diameter ones and they are cheaper than the b-body set.

as for the rear, someone makes shims to move it one way or the other as I recall. they slide in so you don't have to take it apart.

I had the same issue on my '68 Barracuda even with the Firm Fell upper control arms. It wasn't until I installed the Hotchkis adjustable strut rods that I was able to get the caster above 1/2 degree. Having a bit of a rake from front to rear didn't help matters.

I took the car in for an alignment and the caster is now set at 5* positive caster. It tracks down the road and handles so much better than before, and it doesn't pull on crowned roads. It completed the package of some of the best components I've put in the front end including a firm Feel power steering box, stiffer 1" T bars, sway bar and Koni's.

The computer numbers Hunter and other alignment racks, red/green are not very good on our older mopars. Most of those "specs" for go/no go don't provide enough caster.

Crazy question, were your offset bushings installed with the correct orientation?

Post what numbers he DID come up with. as you know you need a RH and a LH thread tie rod end (1 of each) on each (pass & dr) side. LH threads have a distinctive angled twist that you cant mistake as compared to RH (regular) threads which are straight to the naked eye.

Are you running poly strut rod bushings?

Could you take pictures of the front and rear cam eccentrics for each side. That will tell/confirm if there is any adjustment left.

Like Robert said, the actual numbers he got could clue in to what is happening.

If you aren't running poly bushings did anyone verify the frame is straight?

With caster off and the rear crooked one wonders.

But were they installed correctly, so NOT according to the MOOG manual?

I have put in a fair number of the off set bushings and they really never gave anything for the effort. I won't even try it again.

It looks like they should increase castor by a degree or better, but just not so in my experience. I might add 1 degree of positive castor seems to work, I just would like more.
Best of luck on your effort.

These cars, like all others, had a range of acceptable build tolerances. The ideal is in the middle of that range but some cars end up at one end of the range or another.
Putting it another way: Say the upper control arm mounts are to be welded into the frame between 11.0 to 11.125 inches from a specific datum point. The 11.0 position technically puts the upper ball joint further forward, making positive caster less likely than the 11.125 number. I have the Moog offset bushings in my 70 Charger along with urethane strut rod bushings. My alignment guy was able to get 4.0 degrees of caster on each side with stock control arms. Granted, I am one of the lucky ones but cases like mine do exist.

Do you trust your alignment guy?

Reason I ask is, a couple years ago I installed Firm Feel upper arms. Took the car to an alignment shop that's been around for ever, family run thing. He couldn't get any more than zero caster on one side and 2 on the other. Told me the FF arms aren't right or the car must be bent. I called FF and talked to dick, he said they jigged up the tubes and welded them and this would be the first time if they weren't right.

I asked around in my car club who they all use for alignments, got one name consistently. Took the car there with a bunch of spare parts if needed.
The guy called me later that day said it is good to go. It aligned right up with 5 degrees caster with the FF arms.
He had no idea why the guy down the street couldn't make it happen..............

My 65 I couldnt get a lot of caster with them.It did improve and I got it close to 1 degree.That was max.I did it myself at work so I knew it was right.Just depends on the car I guess.Rocky

Lots of good feedback here, thanks guys...
Here is the report.
Also, here are a few pics, the rear cams are the same as the fronts.
I used all Moog Rubber bushings including the struts etc. I remember following the directions here for the offset installation which was exactly opposite of the Moog instructions I think. I guess I could double check that if I remove the wheel.

What do you mean by this?
The rear cams should be oriented opposite, adjusted inward to the car's center. Is that the case?

Here are the back side pics. Driver tough to see.

The front cams are close to the max positive caster and camber position. The rear cam shown is close to the max positive camber and max negative caster position. I can't read the numbers on your slip. If the camber is around zero either the lower control arm bushings are shot, the strut rods/mounts are pushed back, or the rails are tipped in, unless the car has a 4-5 degree rake. Moving the rear cam in would increase caster and decrease camber.
Doug

Here is an attempt to type the results.


Left Front Right Front
Actual Actual
-0.02' Camber 0.01'
-0.105' Caster 0.055'
0.07" Toe 0.07"

Cross Camber -0.02'
Cross Caster -0.16'

Left Rear Right Rear
-0.06 Camber 0.02'
0.00 Toe -0.18"

Total Toe -0.18"
Thrust Angle 0.11'

My understanding of those Moog bushings is that if you install them according to the Moog instructions they won't help your caster. I believe the reason is that caster was not the problem they were designed to solve. They are for gaining +camber.

Someone I'm sure will be forthcoming with the correct procedure to make them give you a positive caster gain.

Kevin

The bushings shouldn't be installed opposite of the instructions, that won't gain a caster improvement, just gets a different camber range.

The front bushing in the arm needs to have the thin side towards the engine and the rear bushing needs to have the fat side towards the engine.

My guess is you have the fat side towards the engine in all positions.

The offset bushings function to allow the front of the control arm to have more range of adjustment outward. This gains camber. This also allows for the rear to be adjusted inward to remove that gained camber gaining caster. Cut a 45 degree triangle piece of cardboard with an arrow pointing forward. The 90 degree corner represents the upper ball joint, the corner at the front of the arrow the front cam, the other corner the rear cam. Lay it on a piece of paper and mark all 3 corners where the cardboard sits. Now move the front corner out and the rear in. Note where this places the ball joint. This move changes caster w/o changing camber. Moving both corners equally changes camber w/o affecting caster. Moving only one corner changes both camber and caster.
Hope this helps. By this we can see from the chart and the alignment sheet that the alignment tech is correct, it's maxed out on adjustment. Sometimes there may still be adjustment in one side. However caster needs to be equal so you have to match to the side that has the maxed out adjustment. I'd like to see the other rear cam position.
Doug
Hope this helps.

I put this together when I couldn't instand why the bushings helped

From the tiny pics you posted I would say both rear cams are adjusted wrong.
Your current camber-setting tells the tale.

I'm thinking this is the result of a fairly clueless alignment-shop operator.

Camber should be slightly negative, like -0.5"
Caster should be max. positive the adjustment can be, but still fairly equal on both sides of the car.

If the rear cams are turned in to get any kind of acceptable caster reading those cams would be so far in the camber will probably be closer to -1.5.
Doug

Aftermarket strut rod bushings cause a lot of this kind of problem--they are all way too thick and push lower back--

Your rear cams are adjusted too far out.

The baseline setting that I always do is to get the front of the A arms as far OUT from the frame as I can, get the rear of the control arm IN as far as I can, then tighten down the cam bolts and take it to the alignment guy.

Your alignment guy is not qualified to work on your car.

With the offset bushing installed to give more castor, (as stated above, move the rear of the arm inward toward centerline) I have had to grind the back of the arm as it will hit the shock tower. Not always, but about 1/2 the time. You will notice this as the rear cam won't go all the way inward.

Not true it's set as as good as it'll get in it's current state. Again, you can't move the rear cams in, it won't have enough camber. It's already near zero. Very possible the strut rods have the lower arm to far rearward. I don't take mine to the alignment guy, I am the alignment guy, since 77

Edit: after thinking about this it's not strut rods. The right side is maxed out on both cams to get zero camber along with offset bushings. Either the rail is tipped at the top, the off set is in backward, or the lower arm pivot is out (bad bushing,cracked K frame etc)
Doug

Camber already near zero? Who cares about zero camber? Come on, man! Any car that corners worth a damn has some negative camber. I have .75 in the Charger and NO, my tires do not wear any more on the inner edges than they do anywhere else. MORE negative camber will allow some positive caster.

I did not read through all the replies.... but how does it drive? I did the alignment on my BB Dart at home, and it didn't have have "enough" caster for what I read was the goal. If I remember, I had 0 as well.

But it drives nicely at all speeds, so I stopped caring.

[quote=Frankenduster]Camber already near zero? Who cares about zero camber? Come on, man! Any car that corners worth a damn has some negative camber. I have .75 in the Charger and NO, my tires do not wear any more on the inner edges than they do anywhere else. MORE negative camber will allow some positive caster. [/quote
Your correct, in a handling situation running more negative camber would help. Seldom is a daily driver or drag car set at less than 0 to -1/2. Even moving to -3/4 would not add more than 1 degree of positive caster. Moving one cam to change caster is about a 1/2 ratio of change (caster to camber)
Doug

This is really a good point! As much as I want this car to be the best it can be, I have to say that when I first put it together, I had all the cams set just close to each other and it drove fine. Just to be clever, I even turned one cam way out, tightened up and went for a drive and the car always drove straight and handled fine. I'm guessing alignment is more for tire wear.
As soon as it warms up a little around here, I will pull the front tires off and check to make sure I have the Moog offsets installed correct.

I have original struts installed, with all new Moog rubber bushings, .96 t-bars, and the upgraded rear leaves with the fifth spring and new bushings front and rear, all new monroe shocks.

Not a good picture to show the rake, but it is only a bit higher in the back.