Posted By: ireland383
Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/01/09 07:10 PM
What I have is a 8:5:1 300 horse motor, not sure of heads. 600 holley,727, 2400 stall, 323 suregrip. What do I need for a 450 horse motor.
Help me with 383 upgrade!
Posted By: zrxkawboy
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/01/09 07:13 PM
What is the intended usage for this motor?
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/01/09 07:19 PM
Just a hotter street car, weekend driver. Maybe a trip to the track. Another words more bottom end. 
Posted By: ademon
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/01/09 07:31 PM
Most important in my opinion is a C/R up around 10.1 to 10.5 for a street 383, look for some close chamber heads 915's, stealth, even a set of 516, with bowl work and bigger valves would be better than open chamber heads, also don't over do the cam, 220 to 230 at.050 for good all around low to mid range. 230 to 240 for hot street. On my worn out stock 68 383 hp motor with factory flat top, i replaced the 906 with 915's, and replaced the cam with a vodoo 220/226 475/494 112cl and was very very pleased with the power and performance, its about 9.8 cr with .040 fel pros with a quench of around .040 to .050.
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/01/09 07:35 PM
What about a stroker kit?
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/01/09 07:44 PM
here's my build...
383, 440 stroker kit, 438 cu. in.
eddy RPM heads--84cc chambers, OOTB
zero deck flat top pistons with valve reliefs
10.5:1 compression
comp XE275HL cam
RPM intake
1 7/8 headers
holley 750HP
made 505 hp on the dyno, tons of bottom end. over 500 ft lbs torque from 3000 rpm through 5800 rpm
with stock 906 heads reconditioned to like new, all else being the same, it was about 9.5 compression, and maybe only about 450 hp, due to the lower compression AND lower airflow of the heads
383, 440 stroker kit, 438 cu. in.
eddy RPM heads--84cc chambers, OOTB
zero deck flat top pistons with valve reliefs
10.5:1 compression
comp XE275HL cam
RPM intake
1 7/8 headers
holley 750HP
made 505 hp on the dyno, tons of bottom end. over 500 ft lbs torque from 3000 rpm through 5800 rpm
with stock 906 heads reconditioned to like new, all else being the same, it was about 9.5 compression, and maybe only about 450 hp, due to the lower compression AND lower airflow of the heads
Posted By: StealthWedge67
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/01/09 07:47 PM
I'm assuming you're not looking for a full bottom end rebuild (??). 450 ponies from an 8.5:1 383 is a tall order. But here's some tips on getting the most out of it: I'd first focus on getting the compression up.
-Make sure you're running .020 head gaskets.
-Closed chamber heads are a must on a 383; Eddy RPM's or Source Stealths. 516 castings with oversize valves and an MP-template port job will work, but once you spend the money to have that work done, you're most likely within a McDonalds lunch of a set of stealths.
-Short stroke, low compression motor, so too much cam duration will kill your bottom end, Something in the range of a Comp XE275HL grind would be my choice.
-A 383 will be a high RPM motor, so bigger carb than you might think. I have a 750 on mine, and it works well.
- 1-3/4" headers are fine for a 383.
- Gears, Gears, Gears.... 3.91's for a street ride.
- I like the RPM manifold for a street car, but a single plane will work well, and maybe make a little more top end.
Tuned right, that outline should get you around 400 ponies, and will allow you to hold your own on the street.
-Make sure you're running .020 head gaskets.
-Closed chamber heads are a must on a 383; Eddy RPM's or Source Stealths. 516 castings with oversize valves and an MP-template port job will work, but once you spend the money to have that work done, you're most likely within a McDonalds lunch of a set of stealths.
-Short stroke, low compression motor, so too much cam duration will kill your bottom end, Something in the range of a Comp XE275HL grind would be my choice.
-A 383 will be a high RPM motor, so bigger carb than you might think. I have a 750 on mine, and it works well.
- 1-3/4" headers are fine for a 383.
- Gears, Gears, Gears.... 3.91's for a street ride.
- I like the RPM manifold for a street car, but a single plane will work well, and maybe make a little more top end.
Tuned right, that outline should get you around 400 ponies, and will allow you to hold your own on the street.
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/01/09 09:27 PM
with alot allready said.Compression is the key. Use 915 or reworked 516 heads at a minimum or look into aftermarket.
Stroker would help, but it will still have the same problems if the heads aren't changed or looked into. The problem seems to be piston choices are really slim. DO NOT believe the charts from the piston makers because more often than not their piston will sit too low.
I am pushing right at 400 with 2.14/1.74 ported 516 heads, Comps nostalgia .474 cam, Holley SD and a 650 mighty demon. Not a stroker here. All in all I am happy with the mill. Its got great low end and has great idle, and drive quality. There is probably more in the motor That I may try to find later, but for now it is just fine for cruisin around town.
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/02/09 12:41 PM
Ademon your build sounds good! I guess I do not need 450 horse,just a bit more. What do you think his build is rated at?
Posted By: Rug_Trucker
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/02/09 01:24 PM
What heads are on there now?
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/02/09 01:47 PM
compression, cam and carb. If you want to keep the 3.23's you'll need a cam in the 220-230's-470-480's range. Pick up a used dual plane intake like a DP4B, a set of headers will help and have your distrib curved. Not sure you'll have 450 but it will be a strong runner.
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/02/09 10:56 PM
Not sure what heads are on there. I plan on changing to 3.91's.
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 12:52 AM
Well dropped the motor off to the shop today. They will start tearing it down on Tue. Just wanted to get a few more piston choices from any body. I know there not many for the 383. Come to the idea that 400 hp or around is more realistic. They will also let me know what heads are on it. It's safe to say that the holley 600 has to go even if it was jetted differently. Any more thoughts would be great. Thanks
Posted By: 64Post
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 12:57 AM
Quote:
Any more thoughts would be great. Thanks
What's your budget?
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 01:05 AM
$3500 that is with me putting the motor back in. A total rebuild on their part.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 01:06 AM
The deal is this...Unless you tell them what parts to use most machine shops are gonna do a regular rebuild..Most shops are chevy/ford oriented, not saying they aren't capable machists just that they know what parts to put together to make a strong running brand X but probably not a strong 383...By design 383's are hard to get proper compression ratios out of with shelf pistons & stock cylinder heads... 
Posted By: farmington
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 01:40 AM
I found a new set of the 12.5 TRW's .030 for my new 383. coupled with Muscle Motors stage 1 iron heads, I'm right at 10.5:1. A comp xe285-hl, rpm intake 1 3/4 headers and 4.10's. Should make my duster scoot.
Posted By: cdp
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 01:45 AM
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post4933738
Use eigher a KB162 piston or a 2316 Federal mogul/TRW to keep your compression height correct. Anything less than these are a waist of money and super-low compression. Even with these pistons and an 85CC or so head, your barely at 9:1.
Follow the link on a Purestock 383 thread.
Use eigher a KB162 piston or a 2316 Federal mogul/TRW to keep your compression height correct. Anything less than these are a waist of money and super-low compression. Even with these pistons and an 85CC or so head, your barely at 9:1.
Follow the link on a Purestock 383 thread.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 01:52 AM
Quote:
I found a new set of the 12.5 TRW's .030 for my new 383. coupled with Muscle Motors stage 1 iron heads, I'm right at 10.5:1. A comp xe285-hl, rpm intake 1 3/4 headers and 4.10's. Should make my duster scoot.
Just my point, a piston thats rated at 12.5-1 in actuality measures 10.5... Farmington did getting the 10.5 require cutting down the domes or is that just a result of the larger then spec combustion chambers & likely taller then spec deck height??
Posted By: gch
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 02:43 AM
If your shop is mopar literate he should now how to do it.If they are not you will have to be specific with what you want and how to get there.A true 9.5-1 with iron heads is about max for pump gas.Any money spent on porting the heads(knowledgeable porting work that is)is well spent.Most of your power gains will come from here.
The lunati voodoo cam 60302 would be a good street cam with the 3.23's.Maybe the 60303 with the 3.91's as long as you have a true 9.5-1.A performer rpm or dp4b intake,a 700dp(or 750 vacuum holley),1 3/4 headers,and a 2600-2800 stall converter will wake that thing up.Make sure you have your dist recurved or just use the mp electronic one to get your advance in sooner.Running more initial advance will help with the idle and throttle response as well.
The lunati voodoo cam 60302 would be a good street cam with the 3.23's.Maybe the 60303 with the 3.91's as long as you have a true 9.5-1.A performer rpm or dp4b intake,a 700dp(or 750 vacuum holley),1 3/4 headers,and a 2600-2800 stall converter will wake that thing up.Make sure you have your dist recurved or just use the mp electronic one to get your advance in sooner.Running more initial advance will help with the idle and throttle response as well.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 03:15 AM
Can 400HP get done on $3500? 
I've got a LOT more than that in my 383. Granted, it's a stroker with all new parts though.
I can see an easy $1K in machine work alone before working on the heads...
I've got a LOT more than that in my 383. Granted, it's a stroker with all new parts though.
I can see an easy $1K in machine work alone before working on the heads...
Posted By: 64Post
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 03:22 AM
Quote:
here's my build...
383, 440 stroker kit, 438 cu. in.
eddy RPM heads--84cc chambers, OOTB
zero deck flat top pistons with valve reliefs
10.5:1 compression
comp XE275HL cam
RPM intake
1 7/8 headers
holley 750HP
made 505 hp on the dyno, tons of bottom end. over 500 ft lbs torque from 3000 rpm through 5800 rpm
with stock 906 heads reconditioned to like new, all else being the same, it was about 9.5 compression, and maybe only about 450 hp, due to the lower compression AND lower airflow of the heads
I'm trying to guess my HP. Do you remember off the top of your head what your cam specs are? Solid or hyd? Our combos are similar, but I went a little over/more/bigger on everything.
Posted By: farmington
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 10:15 AM
the TRW 12.5 pistons are 12.5 with a 78cc head and a .020 gasket. Use a 88cc head and a .039 gasket and you're right there.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 01:19 PM
Quote:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post4933738
Use eigher a KB162 piston or a 2316 Federal mogul/TRW to keep your compression height correct. Anything less than these are a waist of money and super-low compression. Even with these pistons and an 85CC or so head, your barely at 9:1.
Follow the link on a Purestock 383 thread.
NEITHER of these pistons will get you the CORRECT compression height , the KB162 is deeper in the hole than the 2315 AND it's got a CANYON LIKE valve relief at 5cc .
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 01:27 PM
Quote:
Can 400HP get done on $3500?
I've got a LOT more than that in my 383. Granted, it's a stroker with all new parts though.
I can see an easy $1K in machine work alone before working on the heads...
I don't see why not on a 383 cube build , most of the money will be spent on cylinder head work . A closed chamber head with about 78cc of volume with a flat top at zero deck and at the most 3cc reliefs would get the compression where it needs to be , though it won't get you 10.0 . Run a performer RPM with a good 750-800 cfm carb and a decent header.
fast68plymouth got 500 HP out of a 383 with unported 906's and an umder .500 lift cam.
Posted By: chrisf
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 03:22 PM
i am doing a mild 383 for my truck. Dodgefarmer here did the machining. KB400 pistons, lunati 220-226 475-494hyd cam, 440 source heads, rpm intake, 750 vac,
i probably have about $3000 into it should make reliable power
i probably have about $3000 into it should make reliable power
Posted By: 64Post
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 04:42 PM
Quote:Quote:
Can 400HP get done on $3500?
I've got a LOT more than that in my 383. Granted, it's a stroker with all new parts though.
I can see an easy $1K in machine work alone before working on the heads...
I don't see why not on a 383 cube build , most of the money will be spent on cylinder head work . A closed chamber head with about 78cc of volume with a flat top at zero deck and maybe 3cc reliefs tops would get the compression where it needs to be . Run a performer RPM with a good 750-800 cfm carb and a decent header.
I guess it's going to depend on the quality of new parts used and the going rate for machine work in the area. I'm still skeptical, though. Plus, there's going to be another line item $500-600 for assembly labor.
Quote:
fast68plymouth got 500 HP out of a 383 with unported 906's and an umder .500 lift cam.
I'm still more than a little suspect of Dwayne's numbers. Look at 70 Cuda's combo compared to Dwayne's -- it has more of everything and makes only 5 HP more.
Mine ought to make 600HP, then...
Posted By: cdp
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 05:42 PM
Moparmuscle article.
450hp with headers, intake and cam. STOCK rebuilt 383 longblock. No porting, no fancy pistons. A little machine work to keep the compression right.
The forged piston kit is around $650 thru Summit.
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/155_0209_383_engine_restore/photo_14.html
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FEM%2DCSMHP738%2D300&autoview=sku
Just lower your CC's on your heads to about 80.
450hp with headers, intake and cam. STOCK rebuilt 383 longblock. No porting, no fancy pistons. A little machine work to keep the compression right.
The forged piston kit is around $650 thru Summit.
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/155_0209_383_engine_restore/photo_14.html
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FEM%2DCSMHP738%2D300&autoview=sku
Just lower your CC's on your heads to about 80.
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 06:07 PM
Lots of great info here. It's killing me not knowing what heads are on there now. As soon as I know I will post.
Posted By: StealthWedge67
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 06:47 PM
As long as you don't plan on spraying any nitrous, I'd go with KB400 hyper pistons. They have a positive dome design, which should allow you to get nearly 10:1 with open chamber heads, if I remember correctly. A 383 with these pistons, some well prepped 452's or 906's and a camshaft in the 238* / .510 range would be my choice for a budget street / strip 383 build.
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 07:48 PM
Quote:Quote:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post4933738
Use eigher a KB162 piston or a 2316 Federal mogul/TRW to keep your compression height correct. Anything less than these are a waist of money and super-low compression. Even with these pistons and an 85CC or so head, your barely at 9:1.
Follow the link on a Purestock 383 thread.
NEITHER of these pistons will get you the CORRECT compression height , the KB162 is deeper in the hole than the 2315 AND it's got a CANYON LIKE valve relief at 5cc .
I am running 162's and with the first build on ported 906's the car ran like crap. On teardown for the 2nd build we found 7.8:1 compression along several other issues!!! DO NOT believe the calculators and ESPECIALLY the magazine articles.
Running the same pistons with 516's with a fair amount of work and a more properly matched cam and a calculated and verified 9.2:1 comp ratio and the motor is no longer an issue for me. 400 on the nose for hp and 430+ tq. Not land speed records here, but a good motor for the street that does fine for cruising around town.
And definately make sure this builder knows mopars. Most of them SAY they do becasue they want the business, but a good one will take the time to listen and maybe even show you the various stages of the rebuild. This is very important!
Posted By: RemCharger
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 08:08 PM
The compression aspect must be blueprinted. Some shops may just put it together the way they get the parts and tell you its good. Best case scenario is to mill the block to suit.
Posted By: cdp
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/15/09 09:34 PM
I agree with Remcharger. Find the true deck height, pick your piston, mill your block and/or heads to get a good true compression ratio.
It may be wise to talk to mopar cylinder head expert and find a mopar shop to atleast do the heads for you.
Asking for a shortblock to Zero-Deck from a respectable machine shop shouldn't be to much of a problem. Have it balanced.
It may be wise to talk to mopar cylinder head expert and find a mopar shop to atleast do the heads for you.
Asking for a shortblock to Zero-Deck from a respectable machine shop shouldn't be to much of a problem. Have it balanced.
Posted By: lokalik
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/16/09 02:50 AM
i did a zero deck with kb162s. eddy heads 84 cc cut to 72cc, hughes engines roller cam and a 440 6pk. 325hp 350tq at the rear wheels.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/16/09 02:54 AM
Quote:Quote:
fast68plymouth got 500 HP out of a 383 with unported 906's and an umder .500 lift cam.
I'm still more than a little suspect of Dwayne's numbers. Look at 70 Cuda's combo compared to Dwayne's -- it has more of everything and makes only 5 HP more.
Mine ought to make 600HP, then...
You can be skeptical all you want , the math doesn't lie , other members have had their engines run on the same dyno and the numbers have been correct also . Dwayne is NOT one to fib about what he does , his business DEPENDS on being truthful .
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/16/09 03:00 AM
Quote:
Moparmuscle article.
450hp with headers, intake and cam. STOCK rebuilt 383 longblock. No porting, no fancy pistons. A little machine work to keep the compression right.
The forged piston kit is around $650 thru Summit.
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/155_0209_383_engine_restore/photo_14.html
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FEM%2DCSMHP738%2D300&autoview=sku
Just lower your CC's on your heads to about 80.
How old is that article ??? Westech's dyno was HAPPY to say the least and that was finally brought to light a couple years ago .
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/16/09 03:10 AM
Dwayne had more cam and carb and compression
Posted By: cdp
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/16/09 03:23 AM
I think its around 2002-2003. About the same time Florida_70Bee's....Bee was featured in Mopar Muscle.
Here is his combination, and according to an online calculator, he's making around 325 at the rear wheels based on the weight and speed. Note that he runs aroudn 13.50 in the 1/4 with a PURESTOCK legal standard bore, #'s matching 383.
Getting 400-450 horse should be fairly easy.
==================================================
Purestock 383
"have done this same combo in my 70 Bee
To get the C.R. up you will need to deck the block and mill the heads and I think Speed Pro offers a correct flatop piston
Here are some specs on my combo
The block is the original std bore 383
I am using the original cast flatop pistons standard bore.
Speed pro plasma moly rings
The block has been decked to a piston to deck clearance of -.006. (NHRA stock elim minimum specs are -.004 (for a 70 383 335hp) in untouched form I measured the piston to deck at -.050
I am using a Fel Pro steel shim gasket for a 413 which has a compressed thickness of .020
The heads are stock unported 906's with stock size 2.08/1.74 valves with a good valve job. Additionally the heads have been milled to 80cc's (the NHRA minimum is 79.5cc's and in untouched form they were 88cc's)
All this adds up to a measured compression ratio of 10.12:1. This number would be higher with a .030 or .060 piston. Originally in untouched form I measured the CR at 8.44:1 (a far cry from it's 9.5:1 advertised CR.
The cam is a Mopar Performance stock resto cam for a 440 6 pack (same dimensions as the original 383 magnum cam except it uses a 3 bolt cam gear instead of the original 1 bolt)
The intake is the unported original.
The carb is the original 585 cfm holley
The converter is a dynamic 11 inch that stalls at 2300 (like the original converter
The ignition is a combination of Mopar Performance elctronic and FBO Ignition Box, and Coil
The exhaust is a TTI 2 1/2 H pipe with Dynomax Ultra Flow Mufflers
I am running a 4.10's in the rear and I am using a pinion snubber and I clamp the front segment of the original springs.
The car weighs between 3975 and 4015 lbs with me in it depending on the fuel load. I leave the line at around 2000 rpms and roll into the throttle (I don't stab it at green as I am running F70-14 Polyglas's) and shift between 5600 & 5700 and it goes through the traps at 5600 rpms. "
===================================================
So John, are you saying they didn't make the 450 like they claim in the Moparmuscle/Westech article? I was unaware of this if thats the case.
Here is his combination, and according to an online calculator, he's making around 325 at the rear wheels based on the weight and speed. Note that he runs aroudn 13.50 in the 1/4 with a PURESTOCK legal standard bore, #'s matching 383.
Getting 400-450 horse should be fairly easy.
==================================================
Purestock 383
"have done this same combo in my 70 Bee
To get the C.R. up you will need to deck the block and mill the heads and I think Speed Pro offers a correct flatop piston
Here are some specs on my combo
The block is the original std bore 383
I am using the original cast flatop pistons standard bore.
Speed pro plasma moly rings
The block has been decked to a piston to deck clearance of -.006. (NHRA stock elim minimum specs are -.004 (for a 70 383 335hp) in untouched form I measured the piston to deck at -.050
I am using a Fel Pro steel shim gasket for a 413 which has a compressed thickness of .020
The heads are stock unported 906's with stock size 2.08/1.74 valves with a good valve job. Additionally the heads have been milled to 80cc's (the NHRA minimum is 79.5cc's and in untouched form they were 88cc's)
All this adds up to a measured compression ratio of 10.12:1. This number would be higher with a .030 or .060 piston. Originally in untouched form I measured the CR at 8.44:1 (a far cry from it's 9.5:1 advertised CR.
The cam is a Mopar Performance stock resto cam for a 440 6 pack (same dimensions as the original 383 magnum cam except it uses a 3 bolt cam gear instead of the original 1 bolt)
The intake is the unported original.
The carb is the original 585 cfm holley
The converter is a dynamic 11 inch that stalls at 2300 (like the original converter
The ignition is a combination of Mopar Performance elctronic and FBO Ignition Box, and Coil
The exhaust is a TTI 2 1/2 H pipe with Dynomax Ultra Flow Mufflers
I am running a 4.10's in the rear and I am using a pinion snubber and I clamp the front segment of the original springs.
The car weighs between 3975 and 4015 lbs with me in it depending on the fuel load. I leave the line at around 2000 rpms and roll into the throttle (I don't stab it at green as I am running F70-14 Polyglas's) and shift between 5600 & 5700 and it goes through the traps at 5600 rpms. "
===================================================
So John, are you saying they didn't make the 450 like they claim in the Moparmuscle/Westech article? I was unaware of this if thats the case.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/16/09 03:38 AM
John, I'm not doubting Dwayne made the number, I just don't think it was as mild of a build as was let on.
My combo FWIW:
383 block .030+ By CRE
3.915 crank. 450 cid
12.3:1 static cr (10cc domes; .004/.005 below deck
MCH ported Eddys milled to 82 cc's-- we all know the numbers, plus I had them locally flowed. Jeff's numbers are a hair conservative.
Comp Custom solid cam= .261/.266 @ .050 .578/.585 gross lift
Eddy RPM intake
950HP worked by Biggs
1 3/4 Headers
HP? Unknown at this time. Might get it on the dyno in the spring...
My combo FWIW:
383 block .030+ By CRE
3.915 crank. 450 cid
12.3:1 static cr (10cc domes; .004/.005 below deck
MCH ported Eddys milled to 82 cc's-- we all know the numbers, plus I had them locally flowed. Jeff's numbers are a hair conservative.
Comp Custom solid cam= .261/.266 @ .050 .578/.585 gross lift
Eddy RPM intake
950HP worked by Biggs
1 3/4 Headers
HP? Unknown at this time. Might get it on the dyno in the spring...
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/16/09 03:50 PM
Quote:
The compression aspect must be blueprinted. Some shops may just put it together the way they get the parts and tell you its good. Best case scenario is to mill the block to suit.
That's true I did have the block decked.
It was a good thing my engine builder was such a cool easy going guy because during the build i made a point of stoping by on the weekends to see how everything was going. He was more than happy to show me the in's and out's and what was originally wrong and what he did to make it right. This aspect is a rarity in engine builders from what I have heard.
I agree that they do not take much to get them going, but it seems that good compression is crucial in achievieng it. Selecting cams and bolting on intakes and heads only works in fantasy land unless the motor had zero deck pistons to start with. My first builder just put in the pistons cleaned the deck and bolted on monstrous 906 open chambers...and gave me a motor that would not hold a tune to save its life.
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/16/09 04:34 PM
I will have the blocked decked. One concern now is the cam selection because I'm keeping the 3.23's for now, but will soon be switching to the 3.91's or even 3.73's.
Posted By: MagnumGT
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/16/09 04:51 PM
I try to give actual examples rather than speculate. When I worked at a dyno shop in '03,
I saw one car that made a lot of HP out of a 383.
The guy had a '71 Charger since new, said he had tried four engine builders an gave up. Went out and bought the whole Edelbrock performer pack - assembled heads/solid cam/intake, all of it. Bolted this on his block that was at a true 10.0
compression. Made around 435 at the rear wheels...I was in shock because you can usually "hear" a stout engine before it get's strapped down and this one sounded mild - like the idle was up too high and the converter was too high of a stall. The customer was finally pleased and mostly because he did the work.
I saw one car that made a lot of HP out of a 383.
The guy had a '71 Charger since new, said he had tried four engine builders an gave up. Went out and bought the whole Edelbrock performer pack - assembled heads/solid cam/intake, all of it. Bolted this on his block that was at a true 10.0
compression. Made around 435 at the rear wheels...I was in shock because you can usually "hear" a stout engine before it get's strapped down and this one sounded mild - like the idle was up too high and the converter was too high of a stall. The customer was finally pleased and mostly because he did the work.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/16/09 05:13 PM
Quote:
I will have the blocked decked. One concern now is the cam selection because I'm keeping the 3.23's for now, but will soon be switching to the 3.91's or even 3.73's.
The term you need to use when speaking to your machist is Zero Deck the Pistons.. If you just tell him to deck the block he'll take a light pass to true the gasket surface, he needs to acurately know what your looking for...
As you already mentioned the camshaft selection is very important, I would suggest a Crower 271HDP it sfecs out with 222/234 duration .050 .486/.496 lift & 112 centers It's a good cam for a 383, I've got two friends running them & I plan to put one in my 383 next time I tear into it...
Posted By: cptn60
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/16/09 07:08 PM
A note of caution. If your machinist is a chevy/ford guy make sure the head alignment dowels are removed BEFORE he ever touches the block. Had a local yokel cut the deck on a 400 this way. There is no way to positively locate the head and gasket if this happens. Glad to see you are keeping the 383
Posted By: MrFoFody
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 02:11 AM
AS others have pointed out, don't go to big on the cam. When I rebuilt (re-ringed) my 383 a couple of years back, I put in the 509 because I wanted that prostock idle and I wanted to kill a little torque for the street (4spd, less wheel spin). It was fun romping around with that choppy idle but the power band dosn't kick in untill around 3000rpms.
My build is:
-.040 383 w/factory style flat tops & slighty decked. 9.10 calculated compression.
-516 heads, 2.14-1.81 valves, bowls ported and blended & straightened out exhaust ports. cced @ 72cc. Shim gaskets
-Holly SD w/800dp I know it's too big but all I had available and some old school Jardine headers.
The car has a 4spd and 3.91 gears so it makes the cam livable on the street. I'm either going to change the cam to a 528 solid or swap the gears to 4.30-4.56 for some extra zip in the street light grand prix.
My build is:
-.040 383 w/factory style flat tops & slighty decked. 9.10 calculated compression.
-516 heads, 2.14-1.81 valves, bowls ported and blended & straightened out exhaust ports. cced @ 72cc. Shim gaskets
-Holly SD w/800dp I know it's too big but all I had available and some old school Jardine headers.
The car has a 4spd and 3.91 gears so it makes the cam livable on the street. I'm either going to change the cam to a 528 solid or swap the gears to 4.30-4.56 for some extra zip in the street light grand prix.
Posted By: 383man
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 06:48 AM
We had a mild 383 in my sons Dart that ran very good. It was a stock shortblock that I rebuilt. I used the stock factory pistons and decked the block some. It was not bored as I honed the cylinder's and used .005 over rings with the stock pistons that I knurled and fit to the cylinders. The piston was still .030 down so I milled the 452 heads I used .060 and used the steel shim .019 head gasket to get 9.5 comp. All I did to the 452 heads was some mild bowl blending and added Comp single springs. I used the MP .484 cam on a 104 centerline with the stock rockers and pushrods but I had to shim the rocker shafts to get .020 lifter preload. We put the Eddy RPM intake on with a 750 DP and I used a stock electronic dist I recurved. Of course we used headers and a 727 with a manual valve body and a Turbo Action 10" tight 3000 converter. It had 3.91's and we used McCreay G60-15 tires with the stock leafsprings and air shocks. This was all in my sons 72 Dart that weighed right about 3600 with him in it. Never dynoed the car but it ran a best of 12.31 @ 110 and I guessed it made about 400 flywheel hp. It actually ran faster then I thought it would as I was just looking for high 12's with it. Here is a pic of his Dart that runs a .030 over 400 now. Ron
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 01:19 PM
Quote:
John, I'm not doubting Dwayne made the number, I just don't think it was as mild of a build as was let on.
My combo FWIW:
383 block .030+ By CRE
3.915 crank. 450 cid
12.3:1 static cr (10cc domes; .004/.005 below deck
MCH ported Eddys milled to 82 cc's-- we all know the numbers, plus I had them locally flowed. Jeff's numbers are a hair conservative.
Comp Custom solid cam= .261/.266 @ .050 .578/.585 gross lift
Eddy RPM intake
950HP worked by Biggs
1 3/4 Headers
HP? Unknown at this time. Might get it on the dyno in the spring...
I never said it was mild , it was built to be a LEGAL NHRA stock engine , built to blueprint spec with a stock lift cam . NHRA only calls out lift in the cam spec , you can get as wild on the cam duration as you please , he got a little long on the duration and had NEGATIVE piston to valve clearance .
I'm building a similar engine as you same compression smaller cam , except it will have 906's on it flow is unknown by me.
I'm told it'll be hard pressed to make 500hp with stock manifolds ...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 01:24 PM
Quote:
I will have the blocked decked. One concern now is the cam selection because I'm keeping the 3.23's for now, but will soon be switching to the 3.91's or even 3.73's.
wait till you figure out what piston you THINK you want to run , if he gets you a piston that is .100 in the hole you DO NOT want to cut that off the deck .
I would consider dropping the extra coin and get a piston to fit a block that was just skimmed to get it back to square .
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 01:32 PM
Quote:
I agree that they do not take much to get them going, but it seems that good compression is crucial in achieving it. Selecting cams and bolting on intakes and heads only works in fantasy land unless the motor had zero deck pistons to start with. My first builder just put in the pistons cleaned the deck and bolted on monstrous 906 open chambers...and gave me a motor that would not hold a tune to save its life.
It takes more than a zero deck piston to get compression in a stock stroke 383 , the small bore is the killer. Doing the math on factory built 383's you BARELY get 9.3 compression out of a CLAIMED 10.0 factory spec , the pistons have to be poking out of the deck .020 AND the heads cut down to 79.5 vs the as delivered 90-92 cc. or you have to stick a 10cc - 12 cc dome on the piston which gets in the way of proper flame travel .
I wish KB made a step head piston for the 383 like they do the 440 and 400 instead of that POS KB162 , that would go a LONG way toward helping the 383 builder .
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 01:34 PM
Quote:
AS others have pointed out, don't go to big on the cam. When I rebuilt (re-ringed) my 383 a couple of years back, I put in the 509 because I wanted that prostock idle and I wanted to kill a little torque for the street (4spd, less wheel spin). It was fun romping around with that choppy idle but the power band dosn't kick in untill around 3000rpms.
My build is:
-.040 383 w/factory style flat tops & slighty decked. 9.10 calculated compression.
-516 heads, 2.14-1.81 valves, bowls ported and blended & straightened out exhaust ports. cced @ 72cc. Shim gaskets
-Holly SD w/800dp I know it's too big but all I had available and some old school Jardine headers.
The car has a 4spd and 3.91 gears so it makes the cam livable on the street. I'm either going to change the cam to a 528 solid or swap the gears to 4.30-4.56 for some extra zip in the street light grand prix.
I'd swap in the .528 first .
sorry for all the posts , I was out of town over the weekend and had limited computer access ...
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 01:43 PM
That's is ok for all the posts more info helps. I should be getting a call from the builder today or Wednesday and will post what he finds when he opens the motor. Thanks
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 01:50 PM
Quote:
So John, are you saying they didn't make the 450 like they claim in the Moparmuscle/Westech article? I was unaware of this if thats the case.
I need to see the original build of the engine and I need to know WHEN that engine was run at Westech . 450 is definitely possible , but I'm curious as to the compression ratio of that engine .
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 01:58 PM
Will the .528 cam affect the vacuum since I have power brakes,vacuum secondaries, and distributor?
Posted By: 71383beep
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 04:10 PM
Quote:Quote:
I agree that they do not take much to get them going, but it seems that good compression is crucial in achieving it. Selecting cams and bolting on intakes and heads only works in fantasy land unless the motor had zero deck pistons to start with. My first builder just put in the pistons cleaned the deck and bolted on monstrous 906 open chambers...and gave me a motor that would not hold a tune to save its life.
It takes more than a zero deck piston to get compression in a stock stroke 383 , the small bore is the killer. Doing the math on factory built 383's you BARELY get 9.3 compression out of a CLAIMED 10.0 factory spec , the pistons have to be poking out of the deck .020 AND the heads cut down to 79.5 vs the as delivered 90-92 cc. or you have to stick a 10cc - 12 cc dome on the piston which gets in the way of proper flame travel .
I wish KB made a step head piston for the 383 like they do the 440 and 400 instead of that POS KB162 , that would go a LONG way toward helping the 383 builder .
With the second rebuild I paid very close attention to the #'s with the builder and he lamented that the piston choice was not the best. However, since they were in and in great shape he felt he could make them work. I don't have the numbers in front of me as to how much he took off the deck and how much he milled the heads, but I do know that him and I both took the time to make darn sure I was over 9:1 for compression. Consider it lessons learned...it seems like the manufacturers don't give a hoot about REAL 383's IMO.
How about the KB400's? What's your take on those? I've heard they are a better match for this issue, but have not had a chance to use them.
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 04:23 PM
Quote:Quote:
So John, are you saying they didn't make the 450 like they claim in the Moparmuscle/Westech article? I was unaware of this if thats the case.
I need to see the original build of the engine and I need to know WHEN that engine was run at Westech . 450 is definitely possible , but I'm curious as to the compression ratio of that engine .
John the compression was supposed to be 9.2:1. It was a September 2002 issue. I would have guessed the engine made 400-420 horse, they dynoed it at [Email]455@6000[/Email] rpm, which was the highest rpm tested. I thought the dyno doesn't lie I guess they must have done it but I've always been skeptical, it just seems a little to easy to make 450 horse with a 383 after reading the article. Maybe a happy dyno is the reason. Heres the article, let us know if the dyno was happy or not.
http://compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=1111284973
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 05:05 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
So John, are you saying they didn't make the 450 like they claim in the Moparmuscle/Westech article? I was unaware of this if thats the case.
I need to see the original build of the engine and I need to know WHEN that engine was run at Westech . 450 is definitely possible , but I'm curious as to the compression ratio of that engine .
John the compression was supposed to be 9.2:1. It was a September 2002 issue. I would have guessed the engine made 400-420 horse, they dynoed it at [Email]455@6000[/Email] rpm, which was the highest rpm tested. I thought the dyno doesn't lie I guess they must have done it but I've always been skeptical, it just seems a little to easy to make 450 horse with a 383 after reading the article. Maybe a happy dyno is the reason. Heres the article, let us know if the dyno was happy or not.
http://compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=1111284973
The info about Westech being HAPPY came out in 2004 ( it came out after the we did the Enginemasters in 2003) , the numbers in that article ARE INFLATED .
Posted By: cdp
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/17/09 11:48 PM
So how over inflated did this article turn out to be? 40-50 horse?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/18/09 12:42 AM
Quote:
That's is ok for all the posts more info helps. I should be getting a call from the builder today or Wednesday and will post what he finds when he opens the motor. Thanks
I'm really curious as to his shop charges. All of those $50-$100 machining steps add up real quick, unless you short cut a few things. How much is he going to charge for the assembly?
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/18/09 01:42 AM
I will have more details when I meet with him tomorrow or Thursday with a full break down of the build and cost. I forgot to add he has built plenty of Chrysler motors, not just Chevy and Fords.
Posted By: gch
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/18/09 02:44 AM
Quote:
Will the .528 cam affect the vacuum since I have power brakes,vacuum secondaries, and distributor?
The .528 should have enough vacuum to run these accessories.At worst you could install a vacuum cannister but I don't think it will be needed.
Posted By: MrFoFody
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/18/09 10:40 AM
Quote:Quote:
AS others have pointed out, don't go to big on the cam. When I rebuilt (re-ringed) my 383 a couple of years back, I put in the 509 because I wanted that prostock idle and I wanted to kill a little torque for the street (4spd, less wheel spin). It was fun romping around with that choppy idle but the power band dosn't kick in untill around 3000rpms.
My build is:
-.040 383 w/factory style flat tops & slighty decked. 9.10 calculated compression.
-516 heads, 2.14-1.81 valves, bowls ported and blended & straightened out exhaust ports. cced @ 72cc. Shim gaskets
-Holly SD w/800dp I know it's too big but all I had available and some old school Jardine headers.
The car has a 4spd and 3.91 gears so it makes the cam livable on the street. I'm either going to change the cam to a 528 solid or swap the gears to 4.30-4.56 for some extra zip in the street light grand prix.
I'd swap in the .528 first .
sorry for all the posts , I was out of town over the weekend and had limited computer access ...
Yea, I figured it would be better to run the 528 for a more balanced all-around combo. Although the 4.30-4.56 swap might make it a little more interesting around town......
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/18/09 02:23 PM
Quote:
So how over inflated did this article turn out to be? 40-50 horse?
number I think I heard on the dyno numbers was I think 10% ???
How high is this engine ???
I have to go thru my stash of mags to find the original build , I think the compression is lower than claimed ...
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 12:18 PM
Well the heads are 346's 79.5 cc 2.08/1.74. Thinking of going 2.14/1.81. KB400 pistons and .528 cam with 3.91 gears. Already had a Weiand dual plane on the car and will go with a 750 DP. Any last thoughts would be great. Thanks
Posted By: gch
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 12:46 PM
Have you milled the heads to get to 79.5cc chambers?Stock would be more like 89 cc.
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 01:04 PM
No I have'nt had them milled yet. On this chart for 71 it shows them at 79.5cc already www.cowtownmopars.com. Casting # is 3462346.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 01:55 PM
Quote:
No I have'nt had them milled yet. On this chart for 71 it shows them at 79.5cc already www.cowtownmopars.com. Casting # is 3462346.
The link does not work .
Have the heads CC'd while they are there , my guess is they are more like 90 cc, 79.5 cc sounds like the NHRA min spec and NONE of the open chamber heads were that small out of the factory .
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 02:21 PM
Yes I will have them CCd. Try this one sorry. www.cowtownmopars.com/castingnumbers.html
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 02:24 PM
Quote:
Yes I will have them CCd. Try this one sorry. www.cowtownmopars.com/castingnumbers.html
I see they have the 906 listed at 79.5 cc also .... WRONG , that's the NHRA min spec , I have yet to see a 906 below 90cc that hasn't been cut . measure the casting at the outside row of bolts under the exh manifold mounting surface , they are typically 1.000 , if it's less that will give you an IDEA how much the head has been cut , if at all .
Posted By: NachoRT74
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 04:52 PM
452s are CC listed ON SOME WEBSITES like 84 but they are OVER 90 ( I measured and I think got something like 92 )... SO THAT MADE make a mistake if we can say choosing my camshaft... now will need to mill down more than expected
Posted By: ireland383
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 05:10 PM
Yeah, that would be nice if they posted the actual cc's or at least note that they're NHRA min. specs. Well I will still have the shop measure them. What's the most that can be taken off? .060? and what would that give me as far as cc's?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 05:18 PM
Yes it would be nice if they noted that .
You can take off as much as you want, some people have made them closed chamber, but I don't recommend taking that much off .
The rule of thumb is .005 for every 1 cc so .060 would take off about 12 cc . also remember that for evey .010 off the deck you have to take .0123 off the intake face to get the intake and gasket to fit properly.
You might want to get an estimate for the work you want to do to the heads BEFORE committing as it might be CHEAPER to go another route .
You can take off as much as you want, some people have made them closed chamber, but I don't recommend taking that much off .
The rule of thumb is .005 for every 1 cc so .060 would take off about 12 cc . also remember that for evey .010 off the deck you have to take .0123 off the intake face to get the intake and gasket to fit properly.
You might want to get an estimate for the work you want to do to the heads BEFORE committing as it might be CHEAPER to go another route .
Posted By: NachoRT74
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 05:19 PM
IMHO the limit to mill down is:
-adjustable or not valvetrain or custom pushrods. You have rocker shims available though.
-clearence between pistons and valves
-iron or aluminium heads thinking on max compression an iron head can take without pinging or predetonation
-gasket planing to use
I'm planing myself mill down about one milimeter ( around 050 ) and mount 030 rocker shims...the 020 difference will be taken by hidraulic lifters, being preload won't be a BIG problem with the new ( although used, but low mileage ) Hughes valve springs I got at Carlisle. They are more compression valves than the HiPo stock ones even new.
That's just the plan that will be defined once pistons are down in the hole and measure the TDC with block deck. ( KB240s ). Block was decked already once.
Planing to use metallic headgasket
my cam will be MP 289/474 ( but I have a resto HiPo MP cam waiting just in case )
Porting on the way too. Mill down the intake faces too of course on an Eddy 2186 intake to match with new engine geometry
-adjustable or not valvetrain or custom pushrods. You have rocker shims available though.
-clearence between pistons and valves
-iron or aluminium heads thinking on max compression an iron head can take without pinging or predetonation
-gasket planing to use
I'm planing myself mill down about one milimeter ( around 050 ) and mount 030 rocker shims...the 020 difference will be taken by hidraulic lifters, being preload won't be a BIG problem with the new ( although used, but low mileage ) Hughes valve springs I got at Carlisle. They are more compression valves than the HiPo stock ones even new.
That's just the plan that will be defined once pistons are down in the hole and measure the TDC with block deck. ( KB240s ). Block was decked already once.
Planing to use metallic headgasket
my cam will be MP 289/474 ( but I have a resto HiPo MP cam waiting just in case )
Porting on the way too. Mill down the intake faces too of course on an Eddy 2186 intake to match with new engine geometry
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 05:21 PM
Quote:
IMHO the limit to mill down is:
-adjustable or not valvetrain or custom pushrods. You have rocker shims available though.
-clearence between pistons and valves
-iron or aluminium heads thinking on max compression an iron head can take without pinging or predetonation
-gasket planing to use
I'm planing myself mill down about one milimeter ( around 050 ) and mount 030 rocker shims...the 020 difference will be taken by hidraulic lifters, being preload won't be a BIG problem with the new ( although used, but low mileage ) Hughes valve springs I got at Carlisle. They are more compression valves than the HiPo stock ones even new.
That's just the plan that will be defined once pistons are down in the hole and measure the TDC with block deck.
Planing to use metallic headgasket
my cam will be MP 289/474 ( but I have a resto HiPo MP cam waiting just in case )
Porting on the way too
Rocker shims are NOT the CORRECT way to make up for AGGRESSIVE head milling .
Posted By: NachoRT74
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 05:23 PM
well, thats just a though, and if is a go, will be temporally for a while I get the money for adjustable valve train or custom pushrods... money will talks. Is a street car.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Help me with 383 upgrade! - 02/25/09 05:28 PM
Quote:
well, thats just a though, and if is a go, will be temporally for a while I get the money for adjustable valve train or custom pushrods... money will talks. Is a street car.
You don't need an adjustable valvetrain , thats an even bigger piss poor fix . Rocker shims are for CORRECTING INCORRECT rocker geometry, if you want to potentially SCREW UP YOUR rocker geometry thats the way to do it .
All you need is the CORRECT length pushrods if you are running a HYD. cam .