Mini-starter and heat soak - WTD?

Guys,

I have an issue that has been a tad annoying on my Charger from day one. Anytime I drive the car and get it good and hot and then cut it off, it's a roll of the dice if I can get the starter to turn it over fast enough to start for 5-8 minutes after it is cut off. This makes it a real PITA to stop and get gas, etc.

The motor is a 499 stroker 10.4:1 compression so I do have a lot to turn over. I recently did a cam swap to lower the cranking compression and make the motor more pump gas friendly. DCR went from 8.51:1 --> 7.8 with the new cam.

I was hoping this cam would help somewhat with the starter but seems to be about the same. When the motor is cold, the starter can spin it like a top. Battery is good and new Interstate brand and electrical system/cables are in excellent shape.

I also have a starter blanket installed but that didn't fix it. I also have headers which one tube is about 1/2" from the starter so it gets baked pretty well down there. The starter itself is a brand X from AutoZone. I had the initial timing down to 14* which didn't seem to help either and I need to run more than that anyways.

I know I am not the only one here with a mild stroker like this and headers. What starter can I buy that will be more impervious to this heat soak issue??? Would one of the "performance" units like PowerMaster do better or I am throwing money away?

Does anybody have a brand/part number for a mini-starter that they have experience working well in this situation?

Thanks!!

IMHO there's your problem, your using production junk, I have several of the Powermaster standard Hi-Torque and "clockable" Hi-Torque (200ftlb) mini starters in use on my toys, the oldest being 14 yrs old, and totally reliable being under the hood of a wingcar, which from it's nature has higher underhood operating temps due to restricted airflow, so heat soak is always an issue I like to avoid


What's your CCA on the battery your using?

600 CCA 750 CA

Exactly what type of brand X autozone starter is it? Early gear reduction type? later mini starter? back in the day the various gear reduction starters were semi-specialized for the application, for example a /6 starter wouldn't be the same as a 440 HP would, for a reason. Today's rebuilts are a crap shoot.

ive used JY mini staters on everything.had to ding in headers they were so close,never caused a prob..only time ive had the prob you describe it ended up being a ground issue

I use factory mini starters in everything. Even my 15-1 fixed 34 timing 572 w/o issue. Either a bad starter or bad wiring in my opinion. Do a voltage drop test while cranking. Connect a voltmeter from the battery positive post to the starter lug during the hard crank. Being it is connected positive to positive it should read no more than 1 volt. Do the same between the negative post and the starter case. If both read less than one volt I'd replace the starter. If more than one volt fix the cables. This assumes a good battery.
Doug

I asked for the starter that fit a 1992 Ram 5.2L and they had it in stock. No idea other than that. It's the typical mini-starter from what I can tell.

Should be ok, only thing that goes wrong in those is the copper disc inside that makes contact and energizes the motor.

http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4779651&cc=1084878&jsn=400

For the application you mentioned.

I doubt its the starter.My 440 with 2 inch TTIs and a at least 15 year old reman from Advance cranks like a /6 My kids 413 with big headrs and a 440 Source did as well.My starter is right next to the headers.Look at battery,cables I run 1 gauge.We used mostkly Advance remans at work AZ not as much but really didnt have many problems.Ill bet you cables are the wimpy OE style or old.Seems people wont upgrade them.I can run my 12.5 440 all day and it still starts fine.Remember on batterys and cables bigger is better.Ohy starter is for a 99 360 Ram.There are at least 2 and one is not as heavy as the other.The 360 is the big one for sure.Rocky

They are reproduction but they are definitely not oversized. I'm guessing 2 or 4 gauge. I wouldn't mind a fatter set but I don't know where to find ones that fit my car.

Anybody here make these for a 1973 Charger BB? I also had to have the leads that went to the starter lengthened by 6" to give enough length to get to the terminals on the back of the mini-starter and get around the headers.

Anybody here make these to spec?

I really don't trust any of the chain store china built starters. It's a roll of the dice that you get a good one.
I only recommend the factory Nippondenso starter from Mopar or get one from Denso Direct. I have had a junkyard starter on my Savoy for over 10 years and it works perfect for $30.00 plus $16.00 for some new contacts.
I agree with Doug about checking voltage drop at the cable

Gus

Sadly this is quite a difficult test for me to do. It is near impossible to get a lead on the terminals on the starter as the terminals are right up against the block on the backside of that starter.

Add to that burning hot headers and I don't see me being able to fit the starter with the volt meter while it's hot. Trust me, I'd love to rule out one or the other.

BTW the cables are pretty much new and look to be in good shape but they are OEM gauge. However, I can't imagine everyone here that doesn't have 1 gauge cables has my issues.

If I do end up popping for a "performance" starter (aka not reman parts store), which one do I go with? I need to make sure it is dimensionally identical to the unit I have and will stand up to the headers.

Thanks!

Mancini Racing offers genuine Denso starters in a few different flavors.I would go for mid range price one at $141

Gus

Any advantage to the more expensive PowerMaster units? Most look to be the same unit as the Denso's. Am I just paying for the name on the unit or will they be heavier duty than the $141 Denso?

We used tons of reman from Advance in probally thousands of them and alternators we had a few like less than 10 not up to snuff.When I bought mine 75 bucks for a reman was shop price and cheap.That was in like 99 or so.My kids new from 440 source was less than 70 new if I remember correct.Like I said there are two differnt ones for sure.The lighter is usually smaller motors 360s use the big ones.cables i use NAPA s 1 gauge which are pretty generic.Measure get length and install.Rocky

I checked several parts sites and they show the same part number for 5.2 and 5.9L applications.

What about something like this that is clock-able to help with installation? Any experience with these expensive units holding up better than the standard units?



What application? Were these high compression BB strokers with headers or more OEM setups?

Like I said when it's cold my starter will spin the motor like a top....but something is getting heat soaked.

I've had a mini w/heat shield underneath some Hooker's for many moons...

No issues...



MR shows a choice of 14 different starters...


Call 'em, and talk to Wes...

His problem is not the starter. It could be a poor connection, poor wires, poor battery or dying voltage regulator. On my 440 when the regulator went bad it would start up great when cold but slow when hot just like the op said his does. I also thought the problem was heat, headers, and a junkyard mini starter. New VR and problem solved. BTW, problem did not show up on the ammeter.

To me the hibuck starters are a waste.In 90 degree days I can run my 440 in the lanes race and it still cranks like a ?6/Even driving around town its tha same.i have 12.5 domes so your low compression should turn real fast.My kids 300 413 had 2 1/8 inc tubes and really aroundhis mini.It still cranked fast.He ran 1 gauge cables also.I used to watch my old factory cables smoke when cranking.Went to 1s and no problems.Rocky

I have a Power Master starter on my 63 thats been on it since 2006 and has never given a problem. On all my other cars including the 400 in my sons Dart I use the Mopar starters. The one on my sons Dart is listed for the V/6 (3.9) truck eng and has been on it since 1997 and never had a problem. But I also agree with Doug & Gus as you have to test the system out and see what the problem is. The voltage drop test is a very good test for the starter system in finding bad cables or connections. I would also want to see what the battery does when this happens and what the starter draw is when it happens. Sure you can throw a starter at it and see what happens but the right thing to do is check the system out and find out what is causing your problem. I would also take all my test readings cold when the starter is working good and then when its acting up as that may help in diagnosing it. Good luck , Ron

I find it very unlikely a bad VR would cause this. During cranking, the alternator (and hence VR) has little to do with anything....its 99% battery voltage until the motor starts. If the VR was bad the alternator output may be out of whack (which it isn't 13.8V hot). I also don't see if a VR was bad , how it wouldn't show up on the ammeter. Even so, I had another VR on this car for a time and the issue was still present.

I would find it more likely to be a bad/undersized cable then a charging system issue. The battery is pretty much new and has given me no indications on being bad.

I don't mind stepping up to a heavier duty cable but nobody seems to make them for my car and I don't want a generic cable spliced in all over.

I wish I could do a voltage drop test along the cable but no way I can get a probe on the starter terminal with hot headers. Aren't the terminals on your mini-starters up against the block basically? I can't even get the terminals on/off the starter without pulling the starter first and rotating it.

Probing for voltage does not require any current handling, so put a ring terminal on some 16ga wire that is long enough to get one end out safely away from the heaters and somewhere convenient where you can then put connect to the probe on the meter. Of course the ring terminal will need to be mounted on the starter stud. Tape up the free end while warming up the vehicle.

Some terminals are close.Mine were so I trimmed some off of them.Its still encased with the headers.I can still get a alligator type clip on mine.Its tough but can be done.Rocky

**UPDATE**

I took the car out for a 15 minute drive and got it pretty warmed up. I parked it and did some testing. During the hard start condition, I did the following:

Measure voltage across the battery during cranking with a remote starter so ignition disabled. Battery voltage was 13V (fully charged), and when I fired it, voltage dived (expected) and recovered at 11.4-11.0V during about 3-4 seconds of cranking. I would note that during this time, the starter began slow and then sped up to almost normal.

One thing I did notice that seems to be making this marginal situation worse is my electric fans. These are tied to the ignition circuit so when the car is hot enough to have the fans engaged, I have a 20 amp draw and .5-.8V drop with the car off.

Where as the started turned over slower (but fast enough to start the motor) with the fans off, the fans on seem to push it over the edge. I know these newer starters take less current than the old style starters but are sensitive to inadequate voltage.

I may need to wire a toggle switch in series with the sender unit so I could disable the fans, if need be.

I still have a slow-ish start so the fans aren't totally my problem but it is making this worse for sure.

Aside from the fans issue, does the battery voltage during cranking seem in-line with what you would expect?

Put an oil pressure switch in the ground side of the relay's coil circuit. This will keep the fans from coming on till the engine has oil pressure and you're less like to forget to turn it on as it's automatic.

Again, I reiterate, the contacts inside the starter are likely the culprit. I linked to a replacement set above. Cheaper than a new starter.

I have been working with Denso starters for over 30 years and I can tell from the symptoms it has NOTHING to do with the contacts. The starter would click and not start every time. His car is cranking slow so the contacts are completing the circuit like they are designed to do.
As far as the OP's thought on heat soak I have seen these starters so hot the decal melts off and they still start the car. I run an 11" flywheel and the starter in my Savoy is actually almost against the starter and it cranks perfect.

Gus

I removed the terminal block on my starter and I have plenty of room to get at it on my 63 as you can see it has alot of room on the drivers side. I can go right between the header tubes and get on the starter terminals. But I am lucky to have the room as you may not as you have stated. The 11 volts while cranking is good but you said it dropped more then that first and then came back to 11 or so volts. I would want to see the starter draw when it first drops and when its cranking showing 11 volts. I have seen starters with worn bushings do that where on the hit of the key they drag at first and then once they turn some they will center some in the bushings and crank better. From what you said it sounds like it could be in the starter but you can tell more if you see the starter amp draw at first hit and while its cranking. If it draws way to many amps at the hit it I would suspect starter dragging causing to much draw. And if any way to get to the starter terminal where you put the voltmeter positive on the battery positive post and the voltmeter neg on the starter hot 12 volt feed terminal and should have no more then .5 volt drop when cranking. I have seen them as high as 7 volts with a bad cable or connection. Is there any way you can put a 1 to 2 ft jumper wire on the starter hot stud when the eng is cold and leave it on there and put the other end of the jumper off to the side but insulated so it dont short to ground so that when its hot you could just hook your voltmeter to the jumper wire so you dont have to get around the hot header ?? Then do a voltage drop test also when hot. The voltage drop test and the starter draw test will tell you a ton about the starter circuit. Ron

you mentioned lengthening the leads to the starter by 6". how was this accomplished, what ga. wire and terminals was used for this, and do you have any pics how this was done/routed ? possibly something here to investigate.

The ammeter reads current, not voltage. Voltage can drop even if current stays high. Without enough of both when running, your battery won't fully charge. Add to that the engine is easier to turn over cold than when hot. Also, like stated by others, a bad ground, poor connection or corroded wires can cut your voltage at the battery or starter.

If the VR failed open and the alternator was allowed to overcharge 15+V, that would show up as a constant charge on the ammeter. Obviously if it failed closed and kept the alternator from charging enough (below 12.5V), the ammeter would show a constant discharge most likely.

Yeah voltage can drop and you can have lots of current, in the wrong direction (from the battery). Either way the ammeter tells me this.

BTW I had the cable custom made so it's not spliced together to achieve the 6" extension. The leads are 4/10 ga if I had to guess...whatever the factory used. Cables aren't corroded and grounds are fine. The starter grounds to the block I would assume and I have a 4ga neg cable that goes to one of the A/C compressor brackets on the WP housing. It's aluminum, not painted, and free of corrosion.

I had a slow crank hot situation on a 496 with a Denso starter. Battery in trunk originally using the car chassis as the ground/negative cable. Adding a dedicated 1 gauge ground wire from battery to block helped a lot.

Heat does slow the minis down but as many have said, with heavy cables and a good battery they usually get it done.

One option for the cables is to make your own. NAPA has all the stuff... heavy wire, ends, heat shrink. I crimp the connections as best I can, heat with a propane torch then feed in rosin core solder until the crimp is full. When cool, slip the heat shrink over the connection and warm it up. Done, neat looking and functional.

Summit has 2ga premade wires I may be able to work with. Would that be enough extra capacity over a 4ga to make a difference?

I also agree the problem is not the starter, your cables are either too small or you need a better ground cable. Is your battery located in the trunk ?

Nope. Battery sits in the tray right where the factory put it.

Double check your cables and the terminal ends. You may have a corroded cable? Make sure that your engine and battery are grounded good to the frame. Redundant grounds are good, you can't have too many grounds. Check the connections at the starter relay,and make sure the connections are good at the starter.

When we were running the dirt track car, we had a single 0 copper strand welding cable with both ends soldered and shrink wrapped for both battery cables. We never had a heat sink issue. A 4g battery cable is too small in my opinion. I have #2 gauge cables on my V6.

Auto Zone should be able to test your voltage drop and amp draw on your car at their store.

A hot crank and start of a big cube motor needs all the battery voltage available. Isolate those cooling fans during engine cranking, grounding the fan relay through the op sending unit so the fans only run when the motor is running is a great idea. I was never happy to hear fans running 7 minutes after I shut the car off, they pull a lot of voltage out of a resting battery. Voltage needed to start the motor. Gene

Yes...

Try taking a few degrees of timing out of it and see what happens.....

Or it could be like mine, show nothing unusual on the ammeter and not fully charge the battery. Also, 4 gauge cables are vastly undersized for power and ground. We have 4 gauge wire here at the shop and the only thing we use it for is wiring in 1500w power inverters.

A welding supply store is a great place to get really good cable..

With this attitude you will NEVER fix the problem.

There was a guy that was making up cable sets with larger gauge wire but people were pissing and moaning about the price he was charging and I'm pretty sure he stopped doing it, if you want to fix the problem you are going to have to make up your own cable set ... PERIOD.

The biggest problem with Chrysler electrical systems was created by Chrysler, pretty much the entire electrical system is undersized.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the OEM electrical system if it is installed, and maintained properly...

And not taxed beyond its capability...


I've been running totally original wiring for over 20 years with zero issues...And in some pretty brutal conditions...(Heat)...


And that includes battery cables...

You are in a small minority then

John we agree once again in a Blue moon.The amp gauge and bulhead were weak spots as were the cables.Even new the cables were marginal for a hipo motor.Got my 65 in 69 and the cables were iffy then.Rocky

Depends on how you categorize 'installed and maintained properly'...

If I make my own cable, would 2 ga be sufficient (and killing the fans)? 2ga can carry about 50% more current than 4 ga so would this be enough?

I think 2 gauge would do it with stock length cables.

blah blah blah ... see the title under your name ...

How many people on a REGULAR BASIS take apart the bulkhead connections ... and other hi current connections ... to clean and maintain the connections ... a SMALL MINORITY ...

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...


You truly are a legend...


In your own mind...



I've seen you trash


8 3/4's...

Electronic ignition...

HV pumps...


And now, wiring...



However has Chrysler survived without you???


Are you a closet Camaro lover???

Just a thought. A few years ago I started having the same problem you describe. After changing starter, checking wire connections, etc., I found the problem to be my distributor. I use very light mechanical springs to have full advance above 1000 rpm. I found that the counter weights were sticking and not allowing the rotor to return to full retard when the engine was shut down. An easy check to see if this is the problem, is to run the engine up to operating temp. Shut it down and remove the distributor cap. Twist the rotor. If it moves counterclockwise, you found your problem. Again, just a thought........

**UPDATE**

I pulled the starter and the battery cable. Once I cute the harness tape of off of it and compared to a known 4ga wire, I think these cables are 6ga!

I am guessing my 2ga upgrade should be way better than what I have...

Also, when I went to loosen the solenoid terminal, the whole terminal just fell out.

So I think I had two problems...failing connection and 6ga cables. Wow how did this thing ever start??

Yea thats on the small side for the cables. Was it the solenoid terminal on the starter that fell out ? Glad to hear you found something. Ron

glad you found the problem ! it's a common misconception that if the diameter of the[assembled] wire is bigger, it's better. unless you know for SURE, such as in a cut away sample, it's just a guess. look at jumper cables as an easily checked example. there are an amazing amount of 'em out there that look like the best cables you will ever need in two lifetimes. till you look at the connection where the cable wire meets the clamps. then you find out the insulation is five times bigger than it needs to be compared to the wire size. same goes for battery cables. lots of insulation [correct color and diameter] not so much wire inside. this applies to standard parts store replacements and reproduction items equally. you should spin over with ease now !

She ain't starting hard no more! I took parts of the old cables I had and integrated the 2ga Summit cable I bought. I added some thermal sleeving to the first 16" of the leads going down to the starter where it runs near the headers.

I also got use the lifetime warranty and got a brand new starter from AutoZone for free. I have say I was impressed they didn't give me any trouble. They just looked it up and swapped.

I finished the cable last night and put it all in this morning. Man that starter spins that motor like RIDICULOUS fast! I warmed it up and got her good and hot. I stopped and started several times and that engine just fired right up in 1/2 a second!!!

Wow this may have been the easiest problem to solve on this car to date.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions, guys!

Glad you got it figured out.

The internet is great for asking questions and getting ideas, but sometimes there is no substitute for just diving in and getting your hands dirty.

Sometimes you get lucky and the problem jumps out at you when you do...

Years ago when I had this problem the recommendation to go with "welding" shop cable was not only the gauge but amount of smaller gauge wires inside instead of less larger gauge wires inside the insulation...

Good for you. Its nice to have your Mopar working good. I would have been curious to just how much voltage drop the old cable had ? But glad to hear all is well for you. Ron

I can't tell you that but I have a feeling this was more starter and not necessarily the cables (though they were too tiny). I am guessing this because I have that thing spinning like a top hot and cold and I still have the old negative cable installed.

The negative cable is a 6ga+10ga lead so not much current carrying capacity however it is only about 18" long. I have the matching 2 ga negative cable to swap in. I just need to install it. Heck the starter might spin a teeny bit faster once that cable is swapped in.

Oh your right as I missed that you replaced the starter also. Thats what I get for getting old and reading to fast. Ron

Do you have a link to the pre-made wires from Summit?

I still trimmed these down to the right length and all but they seem to be decent cables here.