using new hyd lifters on a solid cam, a question

360 SB, 571 lift MP circle track solid cam. On mockup My p rods are ~1/4" too short & I am searching for options rather than spring for a set of new Smith bros items. Can I use hyd lifters (new of course) which I already have on hand and lock everything downward from the cup rock solid as the higher cup is gonna be about dead on perfect. Anyone see any flaws with that idea (plan!). thank you for your time. EDIT Cam is new and if I dont tube the galleries (pass one/block crossover to dr side) I would drill/tap/setscrew block the lifter oil feed hole to keep psi from hitting it from underneath

You need to remember the lobes on the solid cam are designed for valve lash, I do know a local SCCA SB Chevy engine builder that used a set of solids on a hydralic lobe cam with the lash set at .002 hot. That combination won the west coast SCCA class championship several years back On your deal IF you decide to try and do that maybe try from .002 to maybe 1/8 turn prelaod hot, maybe not. I wouldn't try that unless it was my only option Buy the new pushrods and do it correct

As Cab pointed out there's been some chebby guys that have gotten away with it in certain circumstances. I've looked at this possibility, by coincidence this past week. Seems the unknown is the ramp. Some solids pop the lifter up and then the ramp slows. the transition could---could cause a give in how smooth the lifter rides and if lash gets outta hand the hyd lifter tends to quickly hammer the cam, apparently, sometimes into pieces. BTW I noticed that rhoads lifters has a new v pro (hyd) they claim can be used on a solid. Not sure how they can make that statement? Especially since their lifters are bleed type. that would make the possibility for disaster even more likely IMHO. Bottom line, it's possible but so is failure. Is this build alright to be a Guinea pig?

OK to clarify, it is a new solid cam and new hyd lifters and I am considering blocking the hyd lifters in effect making them solids. everything else would be the same, same dia/new cam/new lifters/solid lash setting. I just need the cup to be higher up. Sound OK so far? EDIT I could use the solids & block its' cup higher but there is no snap ring to secure it up higher. I could JB weld it but I dont know if that would be secure enough and I could drill/tap (2) holes in thru the lifter body on the outside & lock the cup with (2) horizontle setscrews just like the snap ring does but that is alot of work & I have the new set of hyd's on hand so that got me thinking. I cant see an issue if I lock everything under the cup solid but I might be missing something here & 10K Mopar heads are better than one

Why not purchase the "correct" lifters? is there some gain to this set up that I am not seeing?

FWIW,

I am not the smartest guy buy would save my pennies and buy the correct parts in this case. I would hate to see this in the "Ask Me How I Know" Thread

I do have new solids to go with this new solid cam but the pushrod cup is too low for my pushrods. I could just purchase the correct p rods but I'm thinking of just makeing a hyd one (with the higher cup) into a solid (my new extra set of hyd ones). everything would be the same, I'm just locking the cup solid in a higher position unless I am missing something & I do that on occaision. I'm trying to slow down the flow of money if I (appropriately) can.

The question here is the radius on a hydraulic lifter the same as a solid. Ask a cam manufactuar. If so I see no reason it wouldn't work. You're just substituting a longer lifter.
Doug

In my humble opinion, the cost of the calamity that MIGHT happen here is not worth the risk involved. Spend the little you need to do it right or you may be spending more money and time if it fails.

Sounds kind of goofy to me, I bought a set of the strongest, thickest wall 5/16 ball and cup rods Smith Bros had (good for 700 lbs apparently) and they were $210 out the door. Realistically you can get a set for $125, .049 wall which they say is good for up to 400 lbs.

It has always been my luck when I try to wiggle out of spending money it costs me MORE!

Alright, thanks guys for the multiple thoughts/feedback/caveats/predictions! I will check on the foot radius with the cam mfr's & see what they say. Then I will make a decision (& post later on how it went)

??

Ok. I'm going to say this as nice as I can. You come on the board asking for a solution to your problem and EVERY REPLY warns against what you are trying to do. I just don't get it.

62 that is amazing as I was thinking that same Clint Eastwood phrase last night! (regarding this deal). Unless a Monday ph call to a cam mfr tells me that the foot radius is different and a no go then I am going to go ahead with my plan. If I appropriately/securely raise/lock the cup in place the "converted" hyd lifter is going to be functionally and dimentionally the same as a solid (same cup height, everything). racing starts in April so I will know something then if there is a problem if not sooner upon breakin & I will holler & 'fess up if it fubars. thanks again guys!

if you do that wouldnt you end up with zero lash?

Every time this is asked - discussed - beat to death - people seem to focus on the possible differences in the ramps, but here's a thought - if the angle (taper) that the cam is ground on and the lifter face are the same between the two lifter styles, and I believe they are - what difference could any difference in the ramp possibly make? The contact pattern on any given cam is going to be the same no matter what style lifter you use. If I did this, I would run it with about .020-.030 preload - running it with lash would be more likely to knock the retainer clips out of the lifters. IMO you may have more of an issue with the higher spring pressures trying to collapse the lifter than damage from any ramp difference issues.

Granted, this is usually done the other direction - running solids on a hyd cam, to eliminate lifters bleeding down - but I've never heard of an issue from the contact patch being different.

Robert...Could it be that maybe the rules also state a hyd cam only?
I have done what your looking to do but for the reason stated above.
I can't offer any info on doing it in a Dodge as mine was on a sbc...

Man after I get to thinking about it are you running an open class and using a 4 bbl?
That's a ton of camshaft to use with a 2 bbl...
Seems to me it will make it very lazy off the bottom especially if your running a bullring.
Might want to load it up with gear for a cam that big...

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Bonefish I am using 273 rockers so I am going to get my lash there. Evil, people can beat an issue to death & the solution for people who are bored with it is to scroll down to the next (interesting) post and I cant say I have ever seen it at least not on Q&A (maybe I just missed it cuz it was not an issue (for me) at the time) & you mentioned preload, what I am doing is raising up the hyd lifter cup (with a steel sleeve underneath) so it is at the height which will give me the lash Ma wants for that solid cam (28-32) and (1) or (2) threads showing underneath the rocker. Since I am cutting the sleeve to any length I want to achieve the above (lash/threads) I cut it to where I wanted it & no coincidence it (cup height) ended up pretty much where the cup is on a solid lifter cuz these p rod I priorly used (Ma's cut to fit ones) on a prior eng with those 273 rockers. To recap: new solid cam/new hyd lifters (converted to solid functioning). Skicker it is a 2bbl class & yes a bit more cam that I would like but the price was right & I gotta cut a few corners here and there ($$$), not a corner I would like to have cut but it is what it is. For gears I'm gonna start out with a 4:10 7&1/4 with the 2-3 shift valve blocked (4.10x1.45=5.95) then if the 7&1/4 grenades I'm swap in the 5:57 8&3/4 and unblock that shift valve. Lilcuda you left coast guys always have the cool factor (I hope it dont grenade). However "I feel lucky". I knew there were ramp differences (hyd vs solid lifters (but this is solid cam/converted into solid lifter) and there is no ramp issue at all but I did not know that there might be a radius issue difference on the lifter bottom so I was willing to call a cam mfr Monday but if there is no issue I will continue on. Unless I am missing something (which is why I post) from eyeballin the lifter innards on both I dont see an issue with me securely blocking the cup higher as it appears that they machine the step to a certain depth & I checked both solid and hyd lifters to do my homework here & the step OD/cup ID is the same & I am just shifting it back up. I am makeing a solid lifter out of a hyd lifter (just to get the cup higher) and it appears to be (now) identical to a solid lifter to go on my solid cam with 273 adj rockers. Actually I am more worried about the 7&1/4 than I am anything else. At least on test & tune night there will be few people there so I'm gonna beat on that 7&1/4 (I'll post how it goes/if it grenades) as opposed to a DNF in the first lap on opening night! (with the crowds watching plus local TV) & yes I talked up how good I'm gonna do this year & this is the first year its gonna be televised

I don't know what your running for heads but I had much better luck with the smaller intake valve heads with the 2 bbl. 1.88's made a lot more torque than the 2.02's did...
500 Holley 2 bbl?

Blazin' Bob, don't listen to this gaggle of old ladies. They don't:
1. Understand the question
2. Seem to think that $200 is a lot of money
3. Understand your solution to the problem
4. Understand that the lifters have exactly the same radius, the only possibility on 0.904 lifters is the low taper 440 six pack cam and lifters.
5. Think out of the tissue wrapper inside the box, much less outside the box.

To my mechanical engineering mind, and I have done a lot of Value Engineering studies, this sounds like a slam dunk win.

How come most of the old ladies are younger than I am? Oh well, off to the Assisted Living facility for them.

R.

I agree the 7 1/4" worries me way more. As long as the shock of the lash doesn't knock the retaining clip out of the lifter I don't see any issue. I've seen solid lifters that were 2 piece with a clip.
Doug

(1) Skicker it is a rochester 2bbl (class rules) one modified by "jet" & sold by speedway. they changed the rules and EQ mag heads are legal now but I'm having a problem getting the head gasket cooling passages to seal in that eng (wont hold 15 psi/drilled addit'l head/deck/gasket cooling holes/changed gaskets twice/eyeballed everything)) & I ain't resolved it yet so this is a backup with 308 heads (Indy rebuilt ones that have been on the shelf for years/not a good choice but I gotta get going). (2) I can always count on my buddy Dog! yes I'm thinking they were thinking ramp issues as opposed to foot radius which other than the one you mentioned they sure should be the same I would think & yeah I'm just solidly locking the cup higher but I had to ask cuz I dont know everything & I ain't a cam/lifter guru

knowledge is usually gained by doing the exact opposite of accepted practice and seeing just what happens, and if there are gains, losses or ????? and seeing just how long the results [good or bad] last. this also proves what you expect[suspect] does, or does not occur. as they say : "your results may vary......."

I feel lucky (even on the 7&1/4). I will holler regarding both soon