Edelbrock 1411 lean issues on 440

Hi,

I know this has been beat to death, but I cant seem to find anywhere anyone having same issues as myself.
Year One mild 440 in a 68 RR with Weiand 8009 intake. Have a 1411 and have tried a 1413 as well with same results. AFR readings at idle, 23-26, but near normal at mid cruise and WOT. 12.8-14.8. Burns my eyes smelling super rich. Playing with the rod/jet combos and no better. 1413 is stock at the moment and seems slight better.

Timing 12 deg at idle to 34 deg at 2700-3000. Pounds good on the road, little ping when mosh the pedal. But I can't seem to get it set proper to 14.5 ish at idle to tune it?

Could be the Procomp dist, so waiting for the MSD one to show. But in the meantime, would be nice to get the idle AFR better. I believe I have a lean misfire?????


So what should I do now....HELP? Or same experience etc....

what idle speed? still on idle circuit? check integrity of needle/seats/float saturation/fuel psi at carb. make sure the rods are down at idle & might bump the initial up to 18-20 & see what that does for it & yes that'd push you total likely too high but just stay at idle with it at 18 & work there & see what develops (cuz idle is where the prob is). yes the 1411 is the eddy 750 that gets all the flak but work with it & holler how it goes. I have one I bought for $25 but I ain't got to it yet. (the 25 shoulda been a red flag but I feel lucky) EDIT you mentioned lean misfire, not sure about that but I'd block the rods up for that & see what happens & what were the idle A/F readings again

Wow, I didn't know it would idle at that reading. Mine gauge doesn't read above 18. Could this be caused by a low float??? If not, pardon my ignorance..

I just went thru this with my mild 440 and 1407 and had to go super big on the jets (113 primary and 116 secondary), and smaller on the rods.
Setting 9 on chart 1433 jet(.113") 1447 rod(.068" x .047") and pink spring. Changing spring made biggest difference on mine. Unfortunately I just found out I have 25% less comp. in cylinder 4 which confounded tuning, probably from a broken ring (leakdown indicated crankcase/to be continued) due to detonation maybe (get your timing straight)

I think you should definitely get your initial up as Robert said to at least 14-16 and then adjust your slot in distributor to limit mechanical advance to 34-36. 12.8-14.8 is not super rich.. 12.8 great for WOT, maybe a little leaner for cruise in 14s is good.

Glad your car pounds at least. Mine is a dog.

Sounds like a miss to me. Got a cylinder not firing at idle? That would make it rich smell, but lean AF if I am thinking right.

Do you know anyone that might have a carb that they would lend you just to see if the problem remains with the loaner? How about pulling plug wires one at a time at idle to see if you have a dead or weak cyl at idle?

You need to determine whether the problem is the carb or the engine itself before doing anything else.

One last thing, do not worry about any particular A/F ratio at idle. I see good idles anywhere from 13.5 to 14.5. The idle ratio doesn't matter, just tune for what the engine likes. Of course, if the idle mix is way off, then the O2 can tell you which way to go. If it has a mild cam, then a vacuum gage works good or you can just tune it using a good low RPM tach.

I wouldn't use the 750 on a 440, the 800 however should work fine with your set-up. As mentioned make sure everything else is working right. You can pull one plug at a time or you can take a timing light and put it on each wire. This will tell you if the plugs are firing, the one at a time will indicate a dead cylinder which can be caused by a few different things. I don't think your distrib is going to cause a lean/rich issue. I don't usually worry to much about initial, I start at 36* in full at 22-2400, then back the idle down to 750 or so and adjust the mixtures for the best vacuum reading. You might have to re-adjust the idle and mixture screws a few times before you get it right. Also check you fuel pressure and make sure your floats are good. Both will cause the issues you are describing.

use your light to see if each one is firing rather than pulling a wire. electronics dont like opens. grounding each wire WO pulliing it works

Wow...lots of response. Thanks guys...
I'm at a conference until Sunday, but will keep checking here. All good ideas...I hadn't thought of a bad cylinder seeing the motor doesn't have many miles on it. But Robert you say a light. What would that be?

It's idling at 950 ish. Vacuum around 10 -12 fairly steady. Am now running the 850 with similar results. I have a kit installed each. Tested the LM-2 on 2 newer caget14.get 14.3 in e so I know it's working.

Sorry...working from my berry. Mean to say tested in 2 newer cars.

That lean at idle with two different carbs points to a vac leak. Check the intake and power booster if it has one.

I bought this car last Sept. is a 68 RR, first gen (1st 6mos of build) The guy said runs great....I knew it needed work with these issues, but I've had SB's for years, and thought no big deal. Well been a week now...lol. But i'm sure I'll get it. Love the car as what it needed was just final details and touch-ups. Oh ya...paint too...paint is good from far but far from good if you know what I mean...lol. I paint in my shop anyway, so will cut and polish for now until winter. Then B/C and color sand/polish for a perfect finish later.

I did read one thread quoting either Rick here or Barry Grant about lean misfires diagnosed as rich when actually are a lean condition. That's why leaning toward this route. When I played with the 750 long enough, I thought I'd try the 800. It was marginally better but still not where it should be. So yes, I still have underlying issues.

Also forgot, one muffler is shot...blown a hole in it. That's coming as well soon (Jegs BO). That wouldn't do that would it?

Good catch somecarguy. No power brakes, but will check for leaks. Dyno on 2007 sheet shows 14hg at 800 rpm from Year One, but we all know those were not real all the time. Sure not getting that reading today.

Mr Yuck and Robert, good points as well. I didn't know a timing light on each wire would tell you if it's firing or not. See...not too old to learn something new....even from Canada ey....lol. Also the blocking up of the rods. If it still read stupid lean, then I have major issues....GOOD ONE!

When back Monday, will do a dry/wet comp and check again for vacuum leaks. ran unlit propane around base but found none. Will try again.

At initial timing of 14 deg, did a run and got some pinging when moshed it, but cleared up after tires stopped spinning...lol. So I know it's lean...

Have as I said one of those Asian Procomp dist and I'm sure isn't working properly. When mech advance is at 34 deg @ 2500 - 3000 rpm, back at idle it's like 9 deg. Bump back up to say 14 at idle, and goes over bad. Then changes again...so think that junk has to go. So that thing is not running right either. Have the MSD all in one enroute from Jegs coming soon. It's fully adjustable and has a built in rev limiter as well. Has capability to stop advance at a specified RPM. Will change that, plug wires and plugs. Comp test, reset timing and then carb. Then will check again.

So keep the ideas coming if I am missing something. Be mid - end of next week with results, so stay tuned. Thanks again!

cheers - Mike

Check the plugs... you could be sucking oil thru the intake and that wouldn't necessarily show up as a vacuum leak. That will however lead to detonation. I put on a CH4B once, ran pretty good, swapped it with an RPM about 6 months later and 3/4 were sucking oil... it doesn't take much and it won't show up out the tail pipes.
Blown muffler shouldn't cause any issues.

When the car came home, was barely running. I changed the dist as it was so bad. All I had was an old OEM kicking so put that in. Came with the 800 barely running. So put in a 600 to lean it out. So rich was smoking. Plugs at that time were so black, you could write on paper with it.

With the new dist, carb change out and procomp, they are looking light brown to white. So lean ya..cant see any oil. But I'll post some pics next week to give a less boring report....lol.

Then you guys can see maybe something I'm not.

Procomp is probably fine but u have to limit the mechanical advance to about 20 degrees. If it is not adjustable it can be welded. Otherwise the MSD will do the trick.. BE careful with the pinging..

Well MSN will go in as soon as it gets here. Yes...have stopped playing with it until I get the dist in and check the other items. Stay tuned

MSD....phone typing again...lol

Now cam specs are: 484 lift, 238 dur.

When I got it home, smoked rich bad. Now just smells rich with lean condition according to AFR at 23.

thanks again

Do you have a sensor on each side or just on one like me? Are all plugs getting black (both banks). I doubt you have just one side dumping fuel in but it is weird to have a 23 reading and black plugs..

If you have the vac advance hooked up, unhook it. I know somebody will chime in but smelling rich can actually be mean it is lean. Go back to square one. Did you check your fuel pressure and floats yet?

Sensor on one side but its the same on both. Plugs aren't black anymore, light brown to light grey. Im going to change them to get a better reading as they have been in for a while, When they were black, they cleaned up after the dist change and tweaking the carbs.

Vac advance is hooked up. So yes, will disconnect it and I'll try propping up the rods at idle as well. Then take a reading again. Fuel pressure is stock but tested that and was at 5-6 I believe. Floats set a few times, but stayed steady at 7/16" so looks ok there as well.

Aside for the richness at idle, had I not had an AFR meter, I would have left it running as is. Runs good off the line, mid a WOT. Little pinging, but was waiting to change the dist. I have read that the procomp dists have many issues. Boought this one off Ebay from Skip White. Says it was set at 20 deg max advance, but funny thing. He doesn't sell them anymore. So what can I say.

I'll do the changes next week as the parts should be in. I'll get to the bottom of this, with all your help as well ....thanks guys.

--Mike

I didn't weld in a bung. Im using a tailpipe adapter. tested with and without and go same reading so mine seems to work fine with the adapter.

Looks like dist etc just arrived back home. So will get into it on Monday and advise the outcome. I have lots to check now with all your input. I also have a tiny fiber boroscope, so I can get into each cylinder and see if anything what`s happening in there too. Im worried now about the detonation issues. But I think it`ll be ok as I only moshed it a few times.

I also have a Carter 625 kicking around to try. May as well try everything I can to get that AFR close to 14 at idle.

hey also have a fairly new 1405 too.....they`re small but that`ll help me see if I can get to normal AFR readings......

I had a 1406 on a stock 350 horse 440 in a C boat (came that way) & ran flawless. not sure if they richened it as 1406's are lean but 1405's are richer so you'll be fine (at least on the mains). post how it turns out

worth a try to get lower AFR .....see next week.

OK...here's one plug as they all look the same. I just changed them for NGK short as these seemed to be very long. ????

Now, I did put on the 1405 and even worse, AFR 29-30 at idle.

So checked timing again. at idle 12 deg, at 2000 rpm - 35 deg mech. At 18 deg idle even worse. So this dist is literally junk.....I have read Procomp has many issues. And Skip White doesn't reply. So no worries...the MSD is going on tomorrow.

So i'll keep trying tomorrow.

Ohh BTW, I am running to much pressure at the pump. Starts at 5.5 and after turning over a few times using my Vac/pressure gauge looks to be nearly 10 psi.,....WOW! Will get a regulator and gauge tomorrow as well.

You got a lot of problems if that plug is indicative of all 8.

TOO RICH, your afr reading is plain wrong, period. Find somewhere else to take it, the tail pipe is not cutting it.

Too long, if that much of the plug is exposed inside the combustion chamber you have issues.

I suspect your timing problems are self induced as well.

Well no where here to take it. I'll weld a bung in and put the O2 in the exhaust.

I suspect the dist for sure. When a 1405 runs like this, I agree. Have lots of work to do, so will update in a few days once I get the new components in.

thanks

Well got new MSD installed. Funny thing. I cant start the car now with the ign switch. Have to turn the switch on and use a started button....guess I need a switch now.

Here's a New plug with a run on it. So yuup....super lean. But still smells dog rich...eye burning.

So have to put in a few springs as the dist needs recurve. Vacuum gauge says eng likes 20 deg initial. But at 3000 rpm max mech advance is 25 deg, so got to bump that up. May start to fix my AFR problems. Also will weld in a bung and get that O2 in the pipe not the tip. Stills works fine on newer vehicles from the tip, so I don't know.

Ideas.....

[img:left][/img]

Like any box the MSD would need to be fed in ign2 (crank) also which is sounds like ain't being done (check how you have it wired). Not sure if it is gassy from extremely rich or if you are smelling the unburned mixture from a lean misfire. I'm thinking the 1st one. I'd block the rods up or screw in a gutted PV (removing the spring from a junk one might work??) which would I would think help if it is a lean misfire (wouldn't take long/easily reverseable)

Yuup....thats what it was. Have to bypass ballast as start and run are in each side. It's fine now.
So latest is have dist dialed in. 15 initial, 25 at 2000 and 34 at 3000+. AIR at idle still 23-27. The rest is fine. Still didn't weld in that bung, but I don't know of it will make a difference. The tail pipe adapter works fine it seems and on others as I mentioned. But if you guys feel it is needed, I can.

So says running lean but smells rich. Have the 800 in with the biggest rods I have....pulled plug 1 again and white....terrible. So tells me the AFR is correct. But its getting better. Although still pings. I used gas from the tank a here in the acreage and I think my guy filled it up with 87...I have to get some 91 in and try it.

So now I'm thinking my eng doesn't like edelbrock.lol. May looks at demon??.

Well back at her...could do comp test but runs fine.

Wow..i need help. Took 2 plugs out and WHITE...im going back to the 750 #29 on the scale. That's all I have for a combo as I bought rods from edelbrock to treat rich before this started. So what does one have to do? The AFR is correct......

OK...went from this this morning

[img:left][/img]

to this now

[img:left][/img]

So getting better. I put the 750 back on with #29 jet/rod combo. Still was lean so kept the jet and changed for 70x37 instead of 73x42 rods. So better but still lean misfire. Not as bad on the eyes and better on AFR like 20-23 now but still smells rich. So again the AFR meter is working....reading what Im doing for sure at the tailpipe with adapter.

So I need a big carb....this one has a lot of slop in the throttle body and losing between 50-90 rpm when playing with it. So vacuum diff of 5hg. That's done I believe.

The 800 is like an older webber design and I think it has issues in the circuitry, so next step? I think new carb to start, but im wondering about the Demons? How do you guys feel and what size. I think this motor needs an 800???

Ideas......

Well. did compression. all 130 to 140 with #1 being exception at 115. Did wet and no change. So allowable within 20%. Looks like a valve or maybe the cam lob. That could be why having so much trouble with the AFR readings?

Guess I was out....no more than 10% between high and low. So im just over. Guess I have to check into whats up.

Know what.....if this has been like this for the last 7 years since the motor was installed, I wonder if it's carboned up? That would explain a lean mixture but smelling rich. As well the compression issues?

It cant have more then 10,000 miles on it....wasn't a daily driver....

Think I'll do a sea foam treatment then a leak down test. At least it'll be clean when I do it again.

Make sense anyone???

I wouldn't worry about the AF mixture. I set it for how it runs the best and roll. That motor might want 40* total advance. I'd put the 800 on it, go back to square one.... start it run the rpms up to 2200, set the timing in full at 38*, back the rpms down to 750 and adjust you mixtures for best vacuum reading, check your initial and go for a ride. If it runs good leave it alone.

Well could but still pings. That has to be dealt with as well.

So you wouldn't be worried with all that has gone on with this? Last week it punished well. Great throttle response, even with a one ledger 2.76, she smoked that one time well..lol. Now seems loss of power. But it did and still smells rich..too much. So I have to deal with that..
That's what started this

....it's not got lisc plates as I need an out of province inspection first. Can drive to the gas station, but I'll get some jerry cans of premium in today. See if the pinging backs down..

Bring the cylinder with low compression up to TDC on the compression stroke. Rig up a way to get air pressure into that cylinder, 50 lbs +/-. Then listen in the tail pipe, carb, and valve cover breather for the air.

Quick and easy way to determine if the comp loss is past the cylinder or a valve and will indicate what the fix will likely entail.

A modest loss of compression can cause a miss at idle and then not be as noticeable as RPMs increase.

What spring are u using with the rods? Pink will get u into power mode and thinner part of rod faster. You may be lean all of the way thru?
What is your best vacuum at idle?

do not hook up the vac advance. It could be pinging because it's advancing up to 50*

Have you ruled out vacuum leaks?

Im going to run some sea foam through later and check it again. When I bought the car, it had an older 1413 800 on it and didn't run good. The guy thought it did...lol. This one looks pretty old. The motor was bought in 2007, so who knows what has happened changing a few hands before I bought it. Plus from year One, it was tested with a Holley 850. I was excited to buy a 68 RR for a good price. Didn't pay attention to these issues. Normally I could dial them in pretty good. Im getting a leak down test set this afternoon as well. So can better diagnose it hopefully for tomorrow's post. If it's heads/valves I would be happy. Wet shows no change so it would appear rings are good. Pretty low comp with 130-140. So I assume 9:1. But seeing what the other details that were not tended to, I think when they installed it, they had no clue what was happening and could have very well ran it lean or pig rich for a long time. Either could have carboned it up pretty good??

Springs now are silver. Wanted to get as much fuel as I could. As you can see, it's getting better based on the 2nd plug pic I posted. Vacuum fairly consistent at 10-12. But a bit shaky on the needle. Plus I think I had reg fuel. Changing that today as well with some 91. It seems it wants lots of fuel to run the AFR near normal. So 70/37 rods with .113 jets are all I could find in my shop right now. Plugs are getting fuel better then the first plug pic post. I could get the 1490 kit and still play with the 800, as the 750 has too much play in the throttle plate rod as I found out last night as well. Good vacuum leak there and seems to be binding.

We got a crate 440 for my sons 72 Charger and put on a Holley 670 avenger. Runs nice...a bit rich but nice. So don't get it.

Well shouldn't it be running at 50-52 all in? But I'll try it.

yuup...tried all areas. Is manual brakes, so no poster to worry about. Plus im getting 10-12 hg vacuum, so that's pretty normal. But spec sheet form year One said 14 at 800 rpm. But that could what they all said without checking the actual motor....lol

Im going to do that. This one makes sense as that would give a AFR of 23 but small rich for sure.....thanks. The leak down tester will also do the same so that's next.

Sorry guys...I've always read the posts for info never posted..lol. I have to learn to hit "quote" when I reply

I have a relative stock 440 with a mild XE262 Comp Cam, 915 heads, all cylinders at 160 and one down to 125 and it still pulls 20 hg vacuum. 10-12 with a bouncy needle seems telling, as do the relative low compression readings. Hopefully the leakdown reveals something easy. Unfortunately mine did not!
Silver spring would get you the most gas early.. Maybe the .065 x .037 jet would do? Solve compression issue first.

Yuup. Did sea foam and changed fuel to premium. Most pinging gone...haha. Now I'll do that leak down and see. Wont be until tomorrow as kit never came in on time.
But think I may go to Quick Fuel carb anyway. Eddy seems to not like my motor. But first compression issue.

Don't know cam manufacturer just specs.

OK...latest....this 1411 is pooched. The throttle plate shaft is so loose that there is a diff of 4 hg vacuum. And it binds a bit so wont seat back to idle properly. That's my vacuum leak....

The 800 I have is a bit older and im afraid to play with it anymore. Plus it cam with the car and it was backfiring when I got it home. I need a 1480 strip kit to play with it. So save the $60 toward a new carb is the plan I think. I put a carb kit in it, but still runs poorly. Maybe it's me with carb kits and I don't know what im doing....

So chime in guys....looking at the QFT Slayer 750. I think 750 is enough. Could go 800 AVS Edel and jet down if needed. But this time I think a change wont hurt. Plus get a review for the forum....lol.

thoughts

do you still have the old carter 625? If it were me I'd pick up a Holley 750DP or HP. But that's me.

Yuup I do, but it's real old. I would think it's too lean according to my AFR readings. But I could try it.

This 750 was new on the crate motor I bought for the 72 Charger 3 years ago. We had issues right when we started that one up. So bought a 670 Avenger, and ran nice. It's a 475 HP build and higher compression. So I should have clued in putting it on my 440. Tis why I was thinking the QFT 750. Can jet down after if needed. But hard to go up. And that's what I was thinking????

Well bad news. #1 has 12% leakage. At 90psi the Gauge reads 79 psi. So guess I know why I'm at 115 comp now. So a ring job. Hopefully walls are ok...since I have to do all this, may as well change out the Pistons to KB? Damn....didnt need this right now....would drive as is in sundays..lol. Until fall then yank her...lol

Is 12% really that bad? Considering the constant air pressure is bleeding past piston rings and maybe valves, is not how the engine actually operates, I think you real loss number is less than that when combustion is measured in tenths and hundredths of a second?

What were your other cylinder leakdown numbers?

Well only checked the bad one. Guess I should. But an update is its not the rings. I just have had it off a bit from TDC. The sure is actually coming out the exhaust. Hear it like a tire leak...lol. This 440 has the oil filler on top #1&2 so you hear the air passing by making it sound like the crankcase. But it got worse after I did a wet test again. Now it's reading 45psi with 90psi feeding. So that exhaust valve has to be deal with. Makes more sense now with my carb sir problems I would say?

Darn phone auto correction. Meant to say AFR readings.

i agree, 12% is not that bad. i think i remember an engineer buddy telling me 9% is still ok for a street engine. i certainly wouldn't tear an engine down for that, not unless you are going after every ounce of power.

i'd leave it, your issues are elsewhere...

slightly different kettle of fish, but i had a 4 cylinder engine with 35% on one cylinder. it ran better than my current one. exact same engine, haven't done a leak down on the current one, but i doubt any of the cylinders are that bad.

get rid of your carb issues, drive it and have fun!

Supercuda...I owe you an apology. Wow...do I feel stupid. I finally welded in a bung. Being in the high side of the 750 even having that throttle shift issue, I'm at 12.5 at idle. A 15:1 diff from tailpipe. And innovate said it's fine? So accept my apology....

I did buy the QFT slayer 750 anyway. So I'll play with this eddy 750 for the experience, but think I'll change it.

So now to deal with my valve issue according to the leakdown and finally get this on the road.

I appreciate it, just trying to help. Benn following along. Hope you get it sorted out, BTW, the jets and rods from your Edelbrock will work in a Carter too. You might have to swap rod covers if they are different though.

And I appreciate it..Well I've got this 1411 jetted down a bit and now my AFR is correct, I have to go down more. So I'm worried that the QFT 750 might be too much.ill take it for a spin and see what the other readings are then tweak some more.
Thanks...mike

Well some good news. Got that Eddy 1411 jetted down 12% lean at cruise and near stock power. Have 13.0 ish at idle and 12.5+ part and 13.5 full throttle. Considering the throttle shaft is loose like crazy, I'm happy with the results. Darn it...2.76 one legger and moshed pedal still smokes one tire....lol. Little ping mid throttle but I can work on that.

So New carb! Do I use the QFT 750 or go Holley? Thought for one.

Issue #2 - the valve issue. I head it myself coming out the exhaust....I couldn't believe it! So drive it, change the heads......

I await your opinons as they are valued....oh ya...here's the car.

[img:left][/img]

If you have the money to buy a new carb buy the one YOU think YOU can tune easier. The good thing about a Holley's is they are everywhere. You can buy a used unit online or at a swap meet for $100 or less, buy a rebuild kit (or use the stuff you have in the garage) and have a good carb for under $150.

Here's a thought, get the 1411 rebushed. A competent machinist should be able to do that for way less than a new carb, especially since you have this one almost tuned perfect.

Too late. Already bought the Quick Fuel. Plus the outfit in Michigan said if I sent it back, he may get it replaced. Thats better...lol.

I still may try the 1413 as I bought a trip kit for it, but we'll see. At least now that I have the AFR working properly, the job just got that much easier for tuning.....

cheers

Now just got to figure out the Heads issue. Was thinking of some Edelbrock heads, but could take these taken in as well for less I would think to do the valve(s). I'm going to do a leak down on all of them to see what else I may find. Especially when there are some that are 130 and 140 psi.

Then well see after that. I hate doing things twice, so may as well check it out. I want to get it done, finished and just drive it....

I did however run a boroscope in that cylinder last night as I had one to my laptop. Walls are good. Still see cross hatch and cant see any carbon, but did notice some marks on the piston for sure and a valve I believe. Like pecker track marks....I should upload a pic if I can. Looks like detonation or something broke away and bounced around for a while....nothing in there now.???? Hummmm

Ok....some new info.

After talking to our service shop today as he also builds race cars, he said if it has been sitting for a while, it's gummed up. So said to throw in some fuel and valve conditioner. So I ran some more Seafoam from the carb and stalled it plus put in the tank. Let sit for an hour, then took it for a chew. Haven't done a leak down yet.

But before that I had the dr. side valve cover off and started to do #3 etc for leak test. Better at 5% leaking. But #1, I played with it a bit. Took a rubber mallet and tapped a few times. Gauge went down then came up from 25 to say 40. Did this numerous times and finally got it up to 75.

So I think that's the problem. There is merit to what he said. It sat for a few years, got gummed up and needs to be freed up on valves, comp rings, etc.

So, any thoughts on that? I would appear I don't need heads, just major cleaning. Hopefully not a rip down????

Experiences of the same here?

haha....did a comp test on #1 again......up to 130 now.....whew hoooo!!

So I think i'll do another treatment of Seafoam and get some tank and crank conditioner. Drive for a while to run it. I think I'll be fine.

Now got that 1413 800 on and tweaked it a bit with near perfect readings. Still a bit rich at idle, but better. Of course the primary to secondary hesitation, but that can be worked out. Carb works.

Now with that Slayer 750, should come out the gate well......

Unless anyone has anything to add, I think this case is closed.....thanks guys!!!!

--Mike

Results:

Well, I put on the New Slayer 750 VS. WOW! What a difference. A/F at idle between 13.5-14 now. Excellent idle mixture response. Still a bit rich, but Im at 2300' so could go down a couple sizes on the jets which I'll try this week,

Got the MSD Dist dialed in for 36* at 3000 all in with 17* at idle. Went on the road a few times....no more pinging and hooks that 2.76 one legger to smoke that one tire,,,,lol. So 3:55 suregrip going in shortly as well.

So guess the Edel 750 was a bad carb. The 800 was tired, so Slayer wins this round....

Comp seems better as well. Still may have that sticky valve in #1, but will try a leak down again once I run for a few miles with the fuel/chamber conditioner to free up the vales a bit.

I do have a tick under the valley pan...sounds like a bad lifter at idle, but goes away once higher rpm. Not a knock.....but I think may BB's with a lift cam sound like that?

Want to thank all for the support. Now to the next topic sections for any other advice...lol. Like that valley noise....

cheers

You sound pumped! confirm your idle psi is enough (gauges can be crap). check preload. might be a bad lifter or two (press down vertical with a wooden hammer handle while idling on each rocker arm on the pushrod end to pinpoint a bad one (the tone will change). new lifter=go thru cam breakin procedure, remove inner spring/breakin oil etc, all those details

Ya it's a night and day difference!

Well good point. They are non adjustable so only thing I can do it change them. Will have to put a mech gauge on to check oil psi.

When we got the 440 crate from Ross Auto in MI for the 72 Charger, had same issue. Changed the lifters, and no change. So they said that's a Mopar BB with a mid lift cam. So that ones ok, just thinking it's the same here?

I'll get a set. Will check straightness with a piece of glass for the push rods. Do a breakin etc. If that doesn't change, will look at mech fuel pump etc. Im sure it's not serious and simple. I just hate to rip it down if I don't have to.

cheers

A good carb can make a world of difference.

Now...here's something I forgot to mention. Have a Holley 12-803 regulator. And it wont stay steady at 6.5 psi. Goes up and down. I'm wondering if the fuel pump isn't the problem.....

BTW...should I start a new thread to solve this one or can I stay on this one here and continue?

Might as well put it here so people can see the progression.

A 750 eddy is a pos. A few on here disagree, but many of us have said that fir years. Just does not seem to flow all through the range as it should. You might think the a/f ratios are right, but they wont run as good as other 750 carbs.

actually if the preload is off (too little) to the point where it is causing the noise then you'd change the pushrods not the lifters but yes I am thinking lifter issue rather than preload but it needs to be checked & it s an easy check & far easier than a cam breakin procedure

OK...so how would you do it then? It goes away off idle and doesn't seem to miss so maybe I'm being paranoid?

Would miss if the cam lobes were worn. But since the engine has sat for a while evident of the gummed up valves etc, maybe a lifter or two are near collapsed or stuck?

You guys have more experience as I'm a SB guy...lol. Just kidding....I'm a novice for this troubleshooting stuff.

What if I run it with the covers off. Then apply pressure to a few rockers and see of that makes a difference as you mentioned earlier? I doubt piston slap with no blow by. And its on the top, so rules out bearing especially when it diminishes off idle?

I'm not really thinking preload but it could be if the pushrods are a bit too short & the cup is too close to the snap ring at TDC then when things get hot the clearance decreases even further till there is contact making in effect a solid lifter sort of. ~.020 is ballpark. put a lifter on base circle and set a 6" thin steel scale "ruler" across the valve cover rails then make a sharpie mark on the edge & slide it over fast till it touches & makes a witness mark on the side of the pushrod then unbolt the rocker shaft evenly till the pushrod JUST stops moving upward (no sideways movement that skews your test) & this is when the lifter cup has reached the snap ring. make another witness mark then measure the distance between the two witness marks & that is the preload distance. its easier to finish removing the whole rocker assy then so you csan remove the pushrod to make it easier to measure it. On the other idling with valve cover(s) off press straight down on each rocker arm on the lifter end with a wooden hammer handle (hurry it is a messy job).

Ok Rob...thanks. I'll give either a go. The later is easier for me until I figure out what you just said....lol. Naw...I think I got it.

I'll make a tall gasket out of cardboard as we used to do with chevys, and do it that way. Bit messy but I have to find that noise....bugging me.

Now I did a bleed down again tonight on #1, and still bad. But it runs so nice...damn. Still not better than 13.0-13.5 ish A/F at idle and 12.0 mid throttle, but a huge improvement than the Edel 750 or 800. So ran a can of seafoam again, let sit then a chew on the highway. Now have some in the tank. Will finally drive it for a few weeks to work that gum out hopefully. If not, guess besides redoing the paint will be at least doing heads this winter....lol. Everything else is done with exception of the mufflers that im still waiting for....Borla....oh well. 68 RR...in Canada, like none around so may as well do it right the first time.

Will keep on the report side as to how it all pans out.

thanks

if preload is OK & that is an easy check wheat I'd do is see if I could pinpoint the noisy lifter(s) & dissassemble em then put em back together (keep same innards in same body) as clearances/passages inside are very small & a piece of debris in the oil (#1 reason I like frequent changes) can make it hang up on occaision & I for sure dont care to do a cam breakin procedure for new lifters

Good idea. I got my trusty hose in the ear tool...lol going last night. Seems the noise is coming form the right bank. Just above the fuel pump area. So I'll yank off the cover there and try that. But as you say, #1 still has a leaky ex valve too. According to the BOS's/invoices for the car, new motor install, it's likely the motor only has like 8000 miles on it since 2006. If it's true with the odo, then highly likely it's gummed up. So I'll start with lifters first. I'll check straightness of push rods, and try again. Like I mentioned a few posts ago, doing a leak down on #1 for example, I was tapping the valve spring with a rubber mallet. And it was varying in psi readings from 30 - 90 psi. Tells me it's gummed or very bent? But wet comp test has little change. So rings should be fine.

I try and report...thanks

well that's going to have to wait.

When I got my safety done last week, there was a few item like brakes, wheel cylinder, drums etc. SO I let them do it as I have enough on my plate seeing it would be another 2 weeks for me with my timeline to do it.

So I get it back and I'm hearing scuff noises at the wheels. So I figured since they did rear axle seals, probably screwed up the preload adjuster....some shops forgot what the day was....

So I figured a good time to check the brakes, change the bearings for Green Bearings and pull the 2.76 one legger and put in the 3:55 posi.

So went to pull the shaft and I cant get it out? SUP....well it turns out whoever owned it before somehow jammed the shaft in by some stroke of luck. Like no end play on the slip yoke?????? How the H***lll.

So got it out, did the measurements and got to get the shaft shortened tomorrow. Darn good thing I decided to do this .....could have been a problem....geez. Can you imagine?

So needless to say, I had better get going through this meep meep section by section. One good thing, here in Canada there are none around. So the value for what I have to put into it will always be there.

Stay tuned...oh ya. Running better everyday. And A/F is now at 14.5-14.7 at idle. Kudos to Quick Fuel....nice carb. Also valves must be starting to loosen up maybe??

Be back when I have something new to report on this continuing saga....lol.


cheers

well....installed posi 3:55 and new shaft. Mucho major....nice to see 2 rubber stipe on the road...lol.

So to carry on the carb. I'll start changing the air bleeds to get it closer now. 14:0 ish to get to 14:7 is real close.

You guys are great...thanks.

--Mike

All done! Front wheels redone, brakes, bearings, races etc. No issues now!
Now back to carb. Now seems to get better everyday that I drive it. So think i'll drive for a while as the valve issues seems to get getting better.

So will report back in a week or so to try and free up the gum in there.

OK Robert.....I did the last bit you mentioned on the right bank. That's where I have isolated the noise at #2. So as I was pushing down all rockers, the exhaust on #2 would bleed down, start clacking then pump back up after a few secs. The others were fine no change when pressing down So I think it's some bad lifters or slightly bent push rod?

Also put seafoam in the crankcase as well and drove for a few days so far. Seems to start loosening up as the engine is running smother if that's possible and the A/F is starting to get closer to 14.0 ish. And I haven't changes the air bleeds yet. I think I'll keep running for a while longer.

As for the top end noise, I think I should change the lifters and for sure check the straightness of the push rods.....

thoughts

take the offending lifter(s) out & open em up/clean up/lightly oil/reassemble/reinstall (keep innards in same body)/lifter back in same hole it came out of

Will do....also may be fuel pump? heck I don't know, but I just changed the oil a few weeks ago with 10/40 royal purple. Maybe 100 miles.....now it's black again....darn thing is filthy.....so i'll have to flush it s few times as well. I'll get it....with your and others help...lol.

Thanks

Well...got some time to get back at her.

So changed fuel pump and looks to be working well. Now for the good stuff.

Back to the valve train noise. So I thought I'd get to the cleaning that we talked about. So pulled #2 intake out and took it apart. Cleaning etc, but had an additional tiny spring that came out of the varsol and didn't know where it went. So no problem, pulled the sister one out to carefully do the same and pay attention this time. This is what I found....


So delema....change lifters only with breakin or cam as well. Lifters look like new and lobes look same. Not too worn as I figured may have 5-8k miles on the engine.

Ideas??

just me I'd go with my orig plan. clean em up/lightly oil/reinstall/preoil. Tho I'd hate to see you have to open it up again if that dont do it

Rob...too late. Took off intake to start tear down. But funny thing....all int are one size and ex are another as shown in the pic. Now Im stumped.....ever seen that before?

I can replace as I have a gasket kit and was going to change the intake a anyway cause they painted it and looks ugly.

But why would they have 2 different sizes of lifters? Compensate for solid rocker shaft with high lift cam> Cam specs:

480/496 lift, 238-246 duration.

I figured it out. Would appear that someone had replaced 4 in the right bank with different ones. The left is normal. Now I did find some not so straight push rods as well. So looks like good to pull the intake. I'm going to chance it and replace lifters as the ones now are still convex. So I'm assuming the motor still didn't break in yet. So that's the next step. Hope fully doesn't burn the cam.

Keep It Simple Sam, the lifters that ain't being replaced put em back in the same hole ( & same innards in same lifter body and mockup the new ones & check by cleaning the lifter/lifter bore with brake kleen then lubing lightly with WD40 then drop the lifter in & raise it up off of the cam lobe with your finger & let loose of it & it should fall back onto the lobe with a resounding "thump" & if not then it is too tight & will not rotate properly & will fubar the breakin which you will be doing (go thru a normal 25 minute cam breakin procedure). I forgot if this is hyd or solid but check the preload/set breakin lash dimention. If solid I set the lash then remove the rocker assys then goop the cam then reinstall the rocker assys as a carefull R&R will not change the adj screw/locknut position & cam/lifter failures are epidemic. Holler how it turns out.

Well was going to replace all of them and not mess around. I don't know what the manufacturer is of the rest, so I thought better to be safe. I'll do the cam lube, breakin procedure like you say and slip a bottle of zinc as well.

With the 4 being shorter by .0020 and hydraulic flat, im thinking that's best?

Why would anyone be so stupid? Im sure that's my valley noise now.

So should work ya?

Sam....lol.

I like the one guys' handle (on here) "common sense, the least common of all the senses". Yes swap em all, inner spring out/do "thunk" test & the rest of the nit picking stuff needed to ensure a successfull breakin.

ok...guess I'll get some cotton rope....may as well try to free up that #1 ex valve at same time.

Thanks...be a few weeks as leaving for Kelowna, BC again tomorrow. Mid Aug to report.

thanks ey....lol. (canadian pun..lol)

wow! I've been away for a while...lol.

I'll be getting back into it now. I'll report back once I have the lifters in and get running again.