affordable air/fuel ratio monitors?

Im looking at a/f ratio monitors for tuning. affordable unit with dual sensors, 1 for each exhaust pipe. Also looking at possibly buying 2 single sensor units if it's more affordable. Im not sure in the lower price range if there is a big difference in accuracy between analog or digital, but Im interested in whatever works for the best price. Any suggestions?

Don't think you will get any cheaper than this including 2 Bosch WBO2's. I have the Spartan controller and a gauge for the Demon. Will be going in sometime in the next week, looks like a well built unit..

http://www.14point7.com/products/idash

I've never seen one like this. Could have my girlfriend watch my phone as I drive. I called them, it's 399 with dual sensor option. Is that what you meant by Bosch sensors? as in, get my own sensors?

How does it pick up the RPM signal. Why do you need the dual sensors? And do you plan to use the other sensor inputs? Can you manipulate (smooth) the data after it is logged? Can the data be downloaded to a laptop or tower to store and review or is the small phone screen big enough for you to get the most out of the graphs?

As long as it can log with RPM and smooth the raw data to something more useable, it does what the Innovate stuff does except for the phone part. I suggest that you talk to some experienced tuners that have tried this new one to make sure that the unit gives the info in a useable manner. All the units out there can take a WBO2 sensor and give data. But some give it in a more meaningful way than others can.

As far as usability, Innovate has the most useable format. But it doesn't use the phone. If that is an important factor here.

I want 2 sensors for dual exhaust. As I said, I have never seen one that communicates with the phone before. Im running a carbureted 318 with no catalitic converters. Wasnt really looking for something fancy, dont need it to go to my phone, but if it's affordable and accurate Im sold. The tech rep said if the car has an ignition box with a tach output it will read it.

Data logging is a nice feature but I'd be happy with just a analog or digital gauge or even a led readout, like these cheaper ones. But, as far as I can tell they only read 1 O2 sensor.

http://www.jegs.com/i/K%26N/599/85-2439/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710821777&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180000850305&cadevice=c&gclid=CKvL2pa9-cQCFVKDfgodYgsAng

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-6593?seid=srese1&gclid=CK7Zlae9-cQCFVKUfgodLDkAQw

$399 includes 2 sensors, one for each bank. $199 is the bare, no sensor price. It communicates on Wi-Fi, so you can connect with anything wireless like a phone, tablet or laptop. Also datalogs for 1.5 hours so you don't necessarily need anything attached while running.

If you want a down and dirty gauge set up, you can go with:
http://www.14point7.com/products/spartan-lambda-controller-2
http://www.14point7.com/products/solid-afr-gauge

You're up to $175 and no datalogging. And only handles one bank. You can't touch an Innovate setup with no gauge for that price. I have a LC-1 in the W350 and it's fine for what it is, but this is great for a carb setup. Does everything someone looking to dial in A/F on a non computer car.

The price for 2 bare bones gauge set ups (o2 sensor, wire and gauge) from the companies I've researched comes to $350-400, which is so close to the iDash price I might just have to get it,

Have you dealt with 14point7 customer service or had any issues with their products?

Looked at the LC-2 from innovate, dont know much about how they compare but the kit is $189, x2 =$378. Looks like it only monitors a/f, which is all I was wanting, but again the idash is 399 and has the ability to monitor much more than a/f and is wireless.

So about the WiFi part... What happens when Im out in BFE trying to tune the car on wide open roads and Im getting no WiFi signal? Can I hook a laptop up to the unit directly? Ill call them back tomorrow and see if the unit can have a computer plugged into it. Also curios if the gauge could be hooked to it later if I wanted.

Everything I have ordered from them arrived in a week or less, and that is coming from Canada. As long as it's in stock it ships quickly. I will have my Spartan and gauge going this weekend pending snowfall, but it is very comparable to the LC-1 I have. Also no free air calibrations, so that saves time on the initial install. Customer service does not seem to be an issue. Innovate makes good products, I certainly am not bashing them. But owning both, the 14point7 product wins in ease of use and price point.

The iDash comes with a wireless router which will act as your Wi-Fi hotspot. You will connect to it with your monitoring device. As long as you stay within range of the vehicle, you will never have connectivity issues. Also it has 32MB of memory to datalog while you are disconnected, so technically you don't ever have to be connected realtime. I suppose you could just hook up directly with a crossover cable as well. For something that will allow all the other data inputs, the price is hard to beat. As the software develops I'm sure you will see some of the other features enabled like the accelerometer to do quarter mile times.

Innovate LC-1 with an in-dash gauge. There is no value in two sensors in a dual exhaust system IMO. You're tuning both sides of the carb the same anyway. Plus the signal is going to be an average of 4 anyway.

I agree that you do not need two sensors.

The graph is the important thing here, not the guage. Logging with RPM and then reviewing the graphs is the way to go. Things just happen too fast at the time to decipher. As long as the screen on the phone is big enough for you to see all the details then give it a try. It would seem to me that all that info on a phone screen would be a bit much, but my eyes aren't what they used to be.

Even though I have a guage, I log a few pulls and then download them, spend some time looking at what is going on and then decide what changes to make. I make them and then log some more, download them, and then compare them to the earlier logs. That is the only way I can determine what is going on and what my changes are doing. Before and after comparisons side by side.

Maybe Im not understanding you completely. Using only 1 sensor for 1 exhasut bank will only give me readings for that exhaust bank. Now, I think that could get me in good ballpark of the overall mixture ratios of the entire engine, but the readings from one bank doesnt guarantee that the other bank is putting out the same.. I want to be able to monitor both banks.

You will be fine with one sensor. If you want to see for yourself, then just weld a bung in each side and switch the sensor back and forth. It will only take a couple of minutes to do and you will quickly see that both sides will read close enough to each other. It might be a good idea to have the tech rep send you a pic or two of the graphs that they produce. Study them a bit so that you understand them. Do the same with some other brands for comparison. Because it is the graphs that are the key here.

Does this unit self smooth or average or at least have a manual smoothing or averaging function? I didn't see it mentioned in the description.

Here are a couple of links to tuning sites. They are primarily about using Innovate products, but they provide a good look at carb tuning.

http://racingfuelsystems.myfunforum.org/

http://britishqueen.myfreeforum.org/

Been using narrow band sensors for years and they are cheap. Tuning on a turbo car is far more sensitive to mistakes than a carb n/a application and I have not burned up any turbo engines tuning with them.

$40 for narrow band O2 gauge.

Once wide band came out there was a general drift towards them but for a typical car a needless expense.

Innovate makes a cool little dual gauge these days;

DLG-1: Dual Lambda (AFR) O² Gauge
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/dlg1.php

Why would one bank be running differently than the other? Heads are the same, cam is the same, exhaust is the same. Almost nobody jets one side of the carb different from the other. Even if you do monitor both banks separately, each reading is an average of 4, which still hides cylinder to cylinder variations.

I'd point out some carbs have fuel bowls side to side not front to back.

Because intakes can be designed badly that one side of the engine or a few cylinders need to or less fuel than the rest.

I've got 2 sensors and gauges mounted in my dual carbed longram intake engine.
While this ofcourse can almost be seen as two seperate engines, still the amount of variations between the carbs and engine sides is interesting to say the least.

Looked at those. They cost $368 to $399. It's really all I need, but, the idash does what DLG-1 does plus more, and it's the same price.

Who makes these? are they complete kit with o2 sensor, wiring and gauge?

Edelbrock makes a kit, never used though-

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-6593

Cyberdyne gauge only (Summit branded) $28 I have used these for decades.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g2986-1

Autometer version ($80)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-5775


I have used this one on my GTX since the mid-90s (no longer available)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/KNN-85-2437/

Car runs low 11's at 124 mph, all tuned with narrow band and timeslips.

Almost any narrow band sensor will do, if short on cash grab a handfull at the nearest pick and pull. They are dead simple devices that run low volts when lean (0V) and 1.0V when rich. The gauges are nothing but digital volt meters with a 0-1 volt scale.

If narrow band will do, that is a good suggestion. Pull any 4 wire sensor (or better yet get a couple) from a late model wreck for $10 or so, and get a guage for $30 or $40. You will only need 2 wires from the guage to the sensor so you'll have to wait for the sensor to warm up since it won't have heater voltage, but that's no big deal.

In the right hands, the cruise can be tuned as well with the narrow band as with the wide bands.

Cruise is extremely accurate with narrow band, it is the sweet spot (14.7-1 ratio) for sensor accuracy. 11-1 or 12-1 ratios are on the outer edge of the sensors resolution and care has to be taken when running up to the ragged edge. I have done it with great success but did make an ashtray with one engine running 20 psi till I found out how far you could push it.

Also excellent for watching circuit transitions, tuning with an O2 gauge is such a pleasure. No guessing as long as you are aware what circuits are currently in play (vacuum gauge valuable tool here) and when the next comes into the picture.

Typical Carter for example on primary side would be Idle Circuit -> main jet metering rod down -> main jet metering rod up. With the vacuum in the intake determining when you go from cruise to WOT on the metering rod.

Watch when pressing on throttle to see if there is lean spot or excessive fat bump (accelerator pump shot)

Once primary is right hook up the secondary linkage and hit WOT to check mixture. Adjust secondary mixture as needed.

Im a little confused, will a 4wire sensor be compatible with a 2 wire gauge?

Narrow band come in three flavors-

Single wire = output with ground through shell

3 wire = output with 12V and ground for heating element, sensor still grounds through shell.

4 wire = output with 12V and ground for heating element, sensor grounds through 4th wire.

Most gauges have sensor input, ground and lead for dash lights.

All the carb cars I have done use a 3 wire sensor installed down in the header collector. Being heated they warm up in 10 seconds flat and you don't have to worry about them getting sleepy if idling for extended period of time.

3 wire were used by mamopar from late 87 to early 89.

Point taken. However Most guys are running good, aftermarket intakes. A long ram intake is an extreme example. I have heard of some 6-pack guys running staggered jetting as well but again not common. With a single 4bbl with central located jets to feed 8 cylinders there's only so much playing you can do.

Multiple engines will be in this car over time.

If doing a single sensor consider an H-pipe and mount in the center.

This is, certainly, much ado about nothing. Narrow-band sensors are only accurate about 0.5 on each side of stoichiometric. If you're already there, then they can be helpful.

Also, with a 4-wire sensor it's so easy to run power to the sensors and get them to operating temperature. Just one wire to switched 12VDC and one wire to ground. As the sensor heats up the resistance goes up and current flow decreases to almost nothing, so there is no need for a control circuit on the O2 sensor heaters.

As far as wide-band vs. narrow band, when the cheapest wide band sensor was $200, maybe it made sense to just have one. But nearly every new car has them, they many times have a U-shaped connector plug and 5 wires, like my wife's Hyundai. The new sensor is around $100 from Rock Auto. For the JY scroungers, many of the 4-cylinder FWD cars have the O2 sensor stuck right in the middle of the exhaust manifold, right on front center of the engine. Pull it out by opening the hood, no crawling around on the ground.

This is an area where a newbie will be better off spending a little more time to get a product that is more user-friendly. Two sensors, data recording and playback can make life much easier for the novice.

One more thing: How many of you think that the right side of the carb feeds one side, and the left feeds the other side? In the case of long rams, yes, in the case of divided single planes, yes, in the case of my Weiand 7503 for the 318 Poly motor, yes, and for virtually everything else, NO. So the right bank exhaust is a combination of the right and left sides of the carb, as is the left bank exhaust. As was alluded to above, fuel distribution can cause many discrepancies from cylinder to cylinder and side to side.

Back in the day, the Direct Connect engine books were full of instructions on epoxying popsicle stick dams in the intake plenum to even out fuel distribution. Older data that I saw showed that most aftermarket intake manifolds had worse fuel distribution than the stock intakes, and as emissions laws got stiffer, the manufacturers stayed out in front. Port fuel injection cures a lot of those ills.

R.

The one thing that became ever so clear to me when I installed the 2 gauges on my longram engine to try to tune the carbs, was how badly this engine needs port injection instead...

I have been doing this for decades. Chrysler never had a control circuit for O2 sensor heaters (can't say on newer vehicles though) key on and blam the sensors were always powered.

For someone not pushing the ragged edge and on a budget narrow band is fine and for $30 and some junkyard parts you are in business. I did push the ragged edge for years at 20+ psi with nothing but narrow band and was very successful at it and it is a far less forgiving environment then n/a applications.

I found this thread today while doing research before ordering the Innovate DLG-1. Can someone correct my thinking and tell me if I am off base here. If I have this set up to read at each bank before the X-pipe, I would be able to see a rich reading on one side versus the other if I had a plug foul, correct? This is assuming both sides have been running similar to start with. I am thinking this would be an out of the box way I could be sure things are still ok day to day. I have a 526" and have had a plug wire burn already and didn't catch it right away because the cubes and stroke covered it up.

If you are reading each bank individually, you can identify an issue with one running differently than the other. Just don't go chasing the "lean" side when something like that happens.

I assume this is carb'd and it won't automatically adjust fueling based on the reading.

It is carbed. I would definitely look at the rich side. My assumption would be the rich side had some sort of misfire issue. That said, if one bank went way lean from normal I would also be inclined to look at that side.

Not neccessarily. AFR gages are only an interpretation of the O2 in the exhaust. They work only as long as the fuels burns normally. When there is a misfire, the O2 that went into the combustion chamber doesn't get used. There are other situations where the air fuel mix doesnt burn as intended and fools the wideband.