Moparts
Oil Drinking??
Posted By: MoparJ
Oil Drinking?? - 05/27/08 10:03 PM
I believe a while back, I posted how my 6,000 mile 318, stock rebuilt heads, stock replacement pistons, and Comp XE268 cam was using some oil. As of late, it seems to be using a quart every 750 miles. I am using 10w40 with Comp Cams lube. Oil presure is good, the motor runs great, with plenty of power and the only smoke is when I am going down a grade on a freeway when I back off the throttle, or if I open up the secondaries. Even that is only a white/very very light blue (if at all). It will not do anything upon start up. There were no valve seal remnants under the valve covers and the oil looks great. the plugs were not black, but some were ever so slightly gray, maybe a bit of ash.
I will add that in those 750 miles, it is turning 3,000 rpm on the freeway 50% of the time.
About a two months, or 1,400 miles ago,I installed a Holley 650 DP on the motor. It seems since then, I have noticed the consumption. Maybe it is a coincidence. What I do know is that the power brakes and the PCV hose share the rear vacuum port on the back of the carb. Could the brakes be using more of the vaccuum and leaving little for the PCV to operate, thus causing my slight issue?
Or am I overlooking or overreacting to this consumption? Maybe I am looking in the wrong direction, as to me, this seems like a minor problem. Advice or comments are appreciated.
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/27/08 11:11 PM
Cmon gentleman....
I need some opinions, 318 or not...lol...
If you're sure it's not leaking past the valve guides or valve seals it could be the intake gasket not sealing at the bottom. These will leak just enough at high vacuum to cause your problem. To eliminate the PCV as a problem just unhook it and block the port. Make sure the valve cover has a baffle under the PCV valve. One other culprit could be the piston rings failed to seat. When you first started the new engine was there any kind of carb problem that may have washed the rings?
Posted By: FuryUs
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/27/08 11:44 PM
I thought the brakes went to the manifold and the PCV to the carb...
Posted By: CompSyn
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 12:41 AM
What type of oil are you using? Conventional or Synthetic? The reason I ask is conventional oil has an inherent characteristic of being volatile. Meaning at normal operating temperatures, some components of the oil burn off or evaporate. Synthetic oil is resistant to this type of evaporation loss. Although, one quart of oil in 750 miles seems a bit excessive for evaporative loss. Regardless, it could be plying a roll in your oil loss issue. What does the oil look like? Such evaporative loss also increase the oils viscosity. What is the engines operating temperature? Is it higher than normal? Does the engine ever overheat?
Just a couple other possibilities to consider.
Posted By: Magnum
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 01:19 AM
Quote:
the only smoke is when I am going down a grade on a freeway when I back off the throttle, or if I open up the secondaries.
Sounds like valve seals. Is there smoke at start up too?
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 01:20 AM
This motor never overheats. It stays right at 180 all of the time and rises to 195 in only the warmest of days. The oil looks great, not too thick. It is 10w40 Castrol with a bottle of Comp Cams lube. Maybe the lube is doing more harm than good at this point?
I didnt really wash out the rings at break in. Initially, there was some difficulty to get it started as the oil pump/dist gear was not set in correctly, but I didnt pump a bunch of fuel into it. As soon as I righted that issue, it fired right up and I broke it is for 30 minutes at 2,000-2,500 rpm, stopped to change the oil, then ran it some more.
I would anticipate worse running, misfiring, and more smoking if it were the rings, wouldnt you all agree? It has run great for 6,000 miles.
I wouldnt think the carb is pumping too much fuel in, even though it is large for a stock 318 (650 DP electric choke with #70 jets. I do not smell fuel in the oil. Should I back this back down to the Eddie 600 I have? It its fairly rich when it is cold; I can smell fuel in the exhaust, but it cleans up later.
There is a lot of 3,000 rpm freeway cruising for 40-50 miles at a time. Maybe with the lift of this cam and the stock heads, it is just burning more oil? I dunno.
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 01:23 AM
No smoke on start up. If it is, I cannot see it, or it is just fuel smoke or very very light blue. I do not see any valve seal particles in the heads under the valve covers.
The smoke while standing on the throttle or when I am going down hill is minimal and only for the initial moment when I start either driving situation.
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 02:53 AM
Went for another 40 mile shake down today. Only visibly saw a small bit of smoke when I jumped hard on the gas, otherwise nothing. I cleaned the plugs before I left; check again when I returned. They still look clean like they did when I checked them the first time.
I did look down number 8 cyl, which had the worse looking plug before I cleaned them. It even wasnt that bad, with a little brown oil on top of the piston. I know, if there is an issue, that it is on the right bank, as my father has followed behind me and noticed what smoke there was coming from the right side tail pipe.
Maybe the right cyl head wasnt as quality a job as the other and a valve/head job may be in line sometime in the future, not near future. I will go with 302s at that point, or milled 360 (smaller valve heads).
Sorry for the abundance of words; just trying to be descriptive.
-Justin
Posted By: NITROUSN
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 03:08 AM
Quote:
I thought the brakes went to the manifold and the PCV to the carb...
That is not right.
Posted By: GreenBlurr
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 03:36 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I thought the brakes went to the manifold and the PCV to the carb...
That is not right.
What are you talking about. Thats fine. Brakes to manifold vacuum on manifold, and pcv to manifold vacuum on carb is fine.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 03:39 AM
my suggestion would be to do compression & leakdown tests.
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 05:42 AM
Would you think that I should unplug on of my bungs in my Performer intake and try to route in the brake line there and just run the pcv only to the carb and see how it does for the situation?
Also, say it was a malseated ring. Can it seat it self ne way or the other over time? If it is not a ring (which I doubt it is) or intake gasket, i am sure it must be in the right cylnder head. It may just need more work done to it than what was performed.
All and all, given the great running condition and small amount of smoke that is present when it does happen, does this sound like something that needs immediate fixing, or is it fine for a while and wont hurt anything?
Again, sorry for the questions....
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 10:42 PM
Drove more today, pulled the plugs. Still, no black oil, if anything just a very very small amount of gray ash on the ends, but nothign more.
Oil still reads full after 200 miles since last quart added. Thinking about routing the brake vaccuum into the manifold and pcv to the carb tonight. Motor is running strong.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 10:52 PM
You're going to have to do a compression and leakdown test to be sure it's not a ring problem.
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/28/08 10:55 PM
Ok..
I know how to do both, but what will each point to is the numbers are low? Only ring issues?
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/29/08 05:28 AM
Quote:
You're going to have to do a compression and leakdown test to be sure it's not a ring problem.
I performed a compression test this evening. All cylinders tested between 128 and 139, with the majority around 133-134.
I cannot see any ring problems with these numbers.
Remember, the numbers are lower, due to the larger cam with the lower compression pistons, thus lowering the cylinder pressure.
I also rerouted the brake vacuum to the manifold and pcv to the carb. The pcv does not have a baffle below it.
What do y'all think?
Posted By: buildanother
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/29/08 01:38 PM
I would consider pulling intake to be sure it's sealed, or maybe for now, crank the bolts down to be sure they're snug.
Posted By: mopars4ever
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/29/08 01:44 PM
Quote:
I would consider pulling intake to be sure it's sealed, or maybe for now, crank the bolts down to be sure they're snug
I had the same problem many years ago and my intake wasn`t sealing and it was sucking oil in from the valley. Have the heads been cut any? Mike
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/29/08 03:37 PM
No, the heads have not been cut or shaved.
If it is an intake leak, it must be rather small, as it runs great, there is no detonation or rough idle (besides from the cam).
Posted By: NITROUSN
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/29/08 05:25 PM
Quote:
The pcv does not have a baffle below it.
I should. My guess is thats your problem.
Posted By: NITROUSN
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/29/08 05:28 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I thought the brakes went to the manifold and the PCV to the carb...
That is not right.
What are you talking about. Thats fine. Brakes to manifold vacuum on manifold, and pcv to manifold vacuum on carb is fine.
Read. I agreed to what furyus said and said thats not right.
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 05/29/08 06:26 PM
Yeah, I wil swap valve covers snd see what it does. My current MP valve covers have the pcv on the rear left w/out a baffle and the K&N breather on the rear of the right valve cover. I should have them crisscrossed, but the covers werent set up for that, evidently.
I have some stockers painted orange to match the rest of the engine that are crisscrossed with a stock breather and pcv with baffle plate under it. I will give those a try.
Does this sound like a good idea?
-Justin
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/09/08 03:52 PM
I have noticed a bit more smoke when the throttle is released after the motor was run hard for a moment, such as accelerating hard on the freeway. It is just the right side tail still. Nothing on startup or idling or normal driving, just when you let of the gas while driving and the amount depends on how hard it was driven.
I took the manifold off and valve covers and wiggled all of the valve springs around. No major movement there and no noises. I did notice that while I was inspecting the intake gasket that there was a very small break near cylinders 6 and 8 intake ports. It was hard, so I probably did not do that when I pulled the mani off. I wonder if this is just enough of a break to suck oil on deceleration and not cause any backfires or misfires. Again, the motor is running great. I noticed a quart low at 600 miles this time around. It was not like this when I out the motor in, so I am leaning towards intake gasket, rather than a ring or guide, because of the good compression and god running.
Whaddya think?
Posted By: W5Duster436
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/09/08 04:15 PM
Quote:
Cmon gentleman....
I need some opinions, 318 or not...lol...
I had this exact issue. With only 750 miles on the engine it consumed about 6 quarts of oil. It was leaking from underneath the intake and was not hardly noticeable out the exhaust although it was rich as could be.
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/09/08 04:50 PM
Yeah, I put a slightly leaner Edelbrock 600 carb back on and I think I am going to replace the intake gaskets tonight and put it back together. That crack in the gasket mayb e just enough to suck oil to the extent of the consumption I have, especially when the vacuum pulls it into the exhaust when I back off of the throttle.
I may rid of the cam lube and replace with Valvoline VR1 20w50, just to see what will happen. It wouldnt hurt anything and a little heavier weight is not going to sap that much power. Addtionally, it has plenty of zinc in it.
Posted By: bee1971
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/16/08 02:35 PM
Same issues with my 71 Superbee
End of last summer i switched to a Synthetic oil and a Holley Street Dominator intake on my numbers matching 383 - Started going through oil like crazy - This spring i switched back to a convential oil like i have been using for the last ten years since the engine was gone through -Car never has burned a drop of oil since rebuild before
Anyways i discovered something when pulling the plugs and doing a compression test - All cylinders on the passenger side spark plugs had carbon buildup - Drivers side plugs were perfect and clean - Well light tan in color and looked great
All eight cylinders had compression of 135 - 150 #s
Anyways i have never used a paper gasket on the valley tin pans that i have installed for the last twenty years on big block mopars
The car idles and runs perfect - 750 rpms at idle with a Edelbrock 800 cfm carb and that used Holley Street Dominator intake - Engine .030 over / Mopar 284/484 cam and 906 heads gone through ten years ago
Was cruising to a car show this past weekend and the only time oil was noticed out the exhaust from my buds behind me was when letting off the throttle - PASSENGER SIDE EXHAUST PIPE ONLY
Time to pull the intake ??? Or head ??? Or both
Try some paper gaskets on the tin valley pan ???
Could it pull oil from the bottom of the tin pan to one head only ??? The intake bolted up fine with no vacuum leaks - Idles and runs perfect
Anyways i am scratching my head , no pun intended
Figured i would bring up this old thread that i found instead of starting a new one
Scott
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/17/08 11:27 PM
Hmmm, very similar to my issue. I have switched back to the Edelbrock 600 and put on some steel gaskets and put it back together. I dropped the cam lube and am running Valvoline VR1 20w50, as it gets hot in my parts anyways to justify 20w50.
100 miles so far on repair effort. Oil is still full and the car is running strong. I dod notice a small crack on the bottom of the intake gasket on the passenger side when I was changing out the paper ones. There was a very small brown area in the corresponding port of the intake. I am will to bet this could be the issue. I will report back.
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/17/08 11:33 PM
Quote:
Same issues with my 71 Superbee
End of last summer i switched to a Synthetic oil and a Holley Street Dominator intake on my numbers matching 383 - Started going through oil like crazy - This spring i switched back to a convential oil like i have been using for the last ten years since the engine was gone through -Car never has burned a drop of oil since rebuild before
Anyways i discovered something when pulling the plugs and doing a compression test - All cylinders on the passenger side spark plugs had carbon buildup - Drivers side plugs were perfect and clean - Well light tan in color and looked great
All eight cylinders had compression of 135 - 150 #s
Anyways i have never used a paper gasket on the valley tin pans that i have installed for the last twenty years on big block mopars
The car idles and runs perfect - 750 rpms at idle with a Edelbrock 800 cfm carb and that used Holley Street Dominator intake - Engine .030 over / Mopar 284/484 cam and 906 heads gone through ten years ago
Was cruising to a car show this past weekend and the only time oil was noticed out the exhaust from my buds behind me was when letting off the throttle - PASSENGER SIDE EXHAUST PIPE ONLY
Time to pull the intake ??? Or head ??? Or both
Try some paper gaskets on the tin valley pan ???
Could it pull oil from the bottom of the tin pan to one head only ??? The intake bolted up fine with no vacuum leaks - Idles and runs perfect
Anyways i am scratching my head , no pun intended
Figured i would bring up this old thread that i found instead of starting a new one
Scott
In this case, the synthetic may have been leaking past the rings, since it is slick.
Posted By: Neil
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/17/08 11:45 PM
Valve covers need a baffle under the breather and the pvc if you have not taken care of that yet.
Have you verified that the engine isn't leaking oil out anywhere like the oil pan rail, oil filter area etc. No puddles underneath when you park it?
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/18/08 03:59 PM
Quote:
Valve covers need a baffle under the breather and the pvc if you have not taken care of that yet.
Have you verified that the engine isn't leaking oil out anywhere like the oil pan rail, oil filter area etc. No puddles underneath when you park it?
From my car, no, no puddles. Took it out yesterday evening and put another 40 miles on it since the intake and oil change. I took it out on the back roads and beat on it some for once. Boy, for a 318, it is running good and had no problem breaking the tires free, even with 3.21s and the near stock stall converter. It pulled right up to 5,500 rpm several times.Of course, I cant tell if it is smoking when I let off out of the right tail pipe, but if it is not cured yet, it has to be something minor in the cylinder head.
I do have baffles the valve covers and the pcv and breather are across from each other. I still smell some oil from time to time, so a valve cover gasket may be leaking a bit, especially when I jump on the gas. It is not enough to leak on the ground anywhere, though. there is never a spot on the ground of a fluid of any kind.
PCV baffle needed. More then likely you have a bad intake gasket. Put back on dbl pumper and jet 66 frt 72-74 rear and make sure power valve is good. The performer intake will squirm when installed more then likely caused a gasket leak
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/18/08 05:26 PM
Quote:
PCV baffle needed. More then likely you have a bad intake gasket. Put back on dbl pumper and jet 66 frt 72-74 rear and make sure power valve is good. The performer intake will squirm when installed more then likely caused a gasket leak
Just changed the gaskets last week to steel felpro replacements. I thought I spotted a small break about a half inch long near the bottom of the right side intake gasket.
I am driving it quite a bit the past few days to track the oil consumption. As stated, the baffles are on the valve covers.
Posted By: bigslant6fan
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/18/08 10:37 PM
If you found a crack in the intake gasket,thats one problem solved,also what kind of valve seals are you running?Perfect circle teflon seals are known to use oil in a street motor.Also,at higher RPMs oil can be thrown off the rocker arms,and sucked in the PCV.Tall valve covers with bafles will help.
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/18/08 11:02 PM
Quote:
If you found a crack in the intake gasket,thats one problem solved,also what kind of valve seals are you running?Perfect circle teflon seals are known to use oil in a street motor.Also,at higher RPMs oil can be thrown off the rocker arms,and sucked in the PCV.Tall valve covers with bafles will help.
That is a good question. I had the heads worked on a regular, non race oriented shop. My fault and will resume doing it myself or going to a better shop on the next shot. The only smoke is when I let of the throttle while driving, especially while on the freeway. The harder and quicker I let off the throttle, usually the more smoke from the right side tailpipe. there is nothing during start up.
I am not sure if it is doing this anymore, as no one has followed behind me since the intake gasket swap. 200 miles since and oil level is still just above the full mark.
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/23/08 04:37 PM
I put 500 miles on the car this week. It was hot the entire weekend, well over 100. This is the first 500 miles since the intake gasket swap.
When I got home last night, I was pleased to notice that the oil level is still above the full line. My father was following behind me during a cruise yesterday and did not notice any smoke at all, if any, it was not blue. I am now running Valvoline 20w50 VR1 oil with no other additives instead of the Castrol 10w40 I was running with COmp break in lube.
So far, things are looking better.
Posted By: bee1971
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/29/08 12:07 AM
Quote:
Same issues with my 71 Superbee
End of last summer i switched to a Synthetic oil and a Holley Street Dominator intake on my numbers matching 383 - Started going through oil like crazy - This spring i switched back to a convential oil like i have been using for the last ten years since the engine was gone through -Car never has burned a drop of oil since rebuild before
Anyways i discovered something when pulling the plugs and doing a compression test - All cylinders on the passenger side spark plugs had carbon buildup - Drivers side plugs were perfect and clean - Well light tan in color and looked great
All eight cylinders had compression of 135 - 150 #s
Anyways i have never used a paper gasket on the valley tin pans that i have installed for the last twenty years on big block mopars
The car idles and runs perfect - 750 rpms at idle with a Edelbrock 800 cfm carb and that used Holley Street Dominator intake - Engine .030 over / Mopar 284/484 cam and 906 heads gone through ten years ago
Was cruising to a car show this past weekend and the only time oil was noticed out the exhaust from my buds behind me was when letting off the throttle - PASSENGER SIDE EXHAUST PIPE ONLY
Time to pull the intake ??? Or head ??? Or both
Try some paper gaskets on the tin valley pan ???
Could it pull oil from the bottom of the tin pan to one head only ??? The intake bolted up fine with no vacuum leaks - Idles and runs perfect
Anyways i am scratching my head , no pun intended
Figured i would bring up this old thread that i found instead of starting a new one
Scott
Found the intake bolts to bee on the loose side last week
After a good retorque , took it for a nice long haul - No good , still used a little oil
This past Friday pulled the carb off - Oil in the bottom of the intake - Pulled the intake off and was plain as day
Could see oil around the intake ports - I had ordered the Fel Pro Intake Gaskets just incase , for the valley pan so i was good to go - Cleaned everything up and installed the fiber gaskets (Four) to the valley pan using Permatex copper sealant/spray
Retorqued the Street Dominator Intake to 25 ft# and everything looked good - Went to a car show today in Two Rivers WI , about 150 miles roundtrip
Came home and pulled the dipstick after the engine was cold - Not a drop of oil - PERFECT PERFECT PERFECT
Something so simple but yet so stupid for me not thinking about it earlier - I was thinking synthetic oil or a head - Rings
First time i have had an issue with just using the tin valley pan on a Big Block Mopar - Valuable lesson learned i guess - Some intakes require those fiber gaskets
Scott
Posted By: W5Duster436
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/29/08 12:31 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I would consider pulling intake to be sure it's sealed, or maybe for now, crank the bolts down to be sure they're snug
I had the same problem many years ago and my intake wasn`t sealing and it was sucking oil in from the valley. Have the heads been cut any? Mike
I too had this same problem. Went through 5 quarts in about 500 miles but never even realized it as I couldn't detect smoke.
Posted By: CH3NO2
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/29/08 03:28 AM
What gear in the rearend?
Posted By: W5Duster436
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/29/08 10:32 PM
Quote:
Yeah, I put a slightly leaner Edelbrock 600 carb back on and I think I am going to replace the intake gaskets tonight and put it back together. That crack in the gasket mayb e just enough to suck oil to the extent of the consumption I have, especially when the vacuum pulls it into the exhaust when I back off of the throttle.
I may rid of the cam lube and replace with Valvoline VR1 20w50, just to see what will happen. It wouldnt hurt anything and a little heavier weight is not going to sap that much power. Addtionally, it has plenty of zinc in it.
The thicker viscosity oil will definitely slow down the usage.
I am too having the same issue again now on my duster which I just fired up the other day. After about 1.5 hours of running it was down 1 quart and today I noticed some smoke so I think this intake is gonna need some TLC too. It is also leaking at the rear because I could only fit RTV there and no cork gasket. Guess I didn't get enough RTV. I am about to give it up as I can't seem to win with these cars.
Posted By: MoparJ
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 06/30/08 11:22 PM
Yeah, a heavier oil would slow down consumption, but wouldn't cause the drastic change for the better like I have achieved. I would have to say that the intake gasket was definately the issue. 600 miles now and oil is still above the full line. No smoke can be seen by anyone following behind me while driving, especially when I quickly let off the throttle after jumping hard into it. Thicker oil wouldn't have made these differences, especially when I was already running 10w40 oil with either Comp lube, or Hughes lube previously.
The leak was not so obvious on mine; just a small crack near on of the port holes on the passenger side. No abundance of oil, just some slight discoloration in the corresponding intake port.
I also just put the Holley 650 dual feed carb back on and jetted it up a bit to 72 primaries and still 73s in the secondaries. Runs great, but I think I will bump up to 75 or 76s in the secondaries.
So far, so good.
Posted By: W5Duster436
Re: Oil Drinking?? - 07/12/08 08:57 PM
Well as it turns out I have the same problem now on my brand new 340. Leaking like a sieve out the back and I noticed smoke in the exhaust so pulled the intake off and it was definitely not sealed correctly and sucking oil from underneath. I don't have a very good batting average with this. Had to take the intake back over for more machining. I bet these heads have had quite a bit taken off of them over the years.