Posted By: 70FJ5383
Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/24/15 11:30 PM
A 1969 motor for example. Is there really a different in the block? Thought the HP motors just had different rods, cam, carb and forged crank.
Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 12:04 AM
Regardless of year the block is the same except the stamp.
HP engines have: HP Cam, windage tray, bigger oil pan, HP exhaust manifolds, and the Carter carb.
For any given year all 440s use the same pistons, rods, crank (all forged in the earlier years), intake, heads (only 68 and up, 67 uses a bigger exhaust valve in the same 915 casting).
The only exception to this rule are the 6 pack engines. After the introduction of the "6 pack rods" in 1970 its also murky as to which engines came with the "6 pack rods" but most seem to have them by the mid-late 70s.
HP engines have: HP Cam, windage tray, bigger oil pan, HP exhaust manifolds, and the Carter carb.
For any given year all 440s use the same pistons, rods, crank (all forged in the earlier years), intake, heads (only 68 and up, 67 uses a bigger exhaust valve in the same 915 casting).
The only exception to this rule are the 6 pack engines. After the introduction of the "6 pack rods" in 1970 its also murky as to which engines came with the "6 pack rods" but most seem to have them by the mid-late 70s.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 12:12 AM
Quote:
Yeah, I should know this, right. A 1969 motor for example. Is there really a different in the block? Thought the HP motors just had different rods, cam, carb and forged crank.
The difference in the block is 2 stamps ... H and P.
In 69 the only thing different between the shortblock assemblies of the 350HP 440 and the 375HP is nothing.
The main differences between the 2 complete engines in 1969 are the cam, the valve springs, the carb, the distributor, windage tray and the exhaust manifolds.
Posted By: hemi71x
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 12:18 AM
Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block
Nothing.
Nothing.
Posted By: Lee446
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 12:35 AM
I remember reading an article many years ago by a former Chrysler engineer. He claimed that when they needed HP blocks, they would do a visual check on available blocks and pick out the ones with the least amount of core shift. These got stamped HP. Just because it did not get a stamp does not necessarily mean that it would not pass the visual check, it just meant that they quit looking at blocks when they met their quota. Sounds reasonable.
Posted By: fastmark
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 01:27 AM
Quote:
I remember reading an article many years ago by a former Chrysler engineer. He claimed that when they needed HP blocks, they would do a visual check on available blocks and pick out the ones with the least amount of core shift. These got stamped HP. Just because it did not get a stamp does not necessarily mean that it would not pass the visual check, it just meant that they quit looking at blocks when they met their quota. Sounds reasonable.
That dude is good then. Most people don't have x-ray vision to see the core shift. I have to use a sonic gauge!
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 01:31 AM
Quote:Quote:
I remember reading an article many years ago by a former Chrysler engineer. He claimed that when they needed HP blocks, they would do a visual check on available blocks and pick out the ones with the least amount of core shift. These got stamped HP. Just because it did not get a stamp does not necessarily mean that it would not pass the visual check, it just meant that they quit looking at blocks when they met their quota. Sounds reasonable.
That dude is good then. Most people don't have x-ray vision to see the core shift. I have to use a sonic gauge!
Clark Kent's night job.
Posted By: B5 Bee
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 02:28 AM
440 block - $300
440HP block - $700
difference - $400, well that and the HP stamp
440HP block - $700
difference - $400, well that and the HP stamp
Posted By: 70FJ5383
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 02:39 AM
Quote:
440 block - $300
440HP block - $700
difference - $400, well that and the HP stamp
So the uninformed are paying more for the same block. Thanks for clearing that up.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 02:39 AM
Quote:
Regardless of year the block is the same except the stamp.
HP engines have: HP Cam, windage tray, bigger oil pan, HP exhaust manifolds, and the Carter carb.
For any given year all 440s use the same pistons, rods, crank (all forged in the earlier years), intake, heads (only 68 and up, 67 uses a bigger exhaust valve in the same 915 casting).
The only exception to this rule are the 6 pack engines. After the introduction of the "6 pack rods" in 1970 its also murky as to which engines came with the "6 pack rods" but most seem to have them by the mid-late 70s.
Not that murky; all 1970 - 1975 440 HP and truck engines used the mis-named "6 pack rods".
To the OP, as the others have stated....just the stamp.
Dave
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 03:34 AM
Quote:Quote:
Regardless of year the block is the same except the stamp.
HP engines have: HP Cam, windage tray, bigger oil pan, HP exhaust manifolds, and the Carter carb.
For any given year all 440s use the same pistons, rods, crank (all forged in the earlier years), intake, heads (only 68 and up, 67 uses a bigger exhaust valve in the same 915 casting).
The only exception to this rule are the 6 pack engines. After the introduction of the "6 pack rods" in 1970 its also murky as to which engines came with the "6 pack rods" but most seem to have them by the mid-late 70s.
Not that murky; all 1970 - 1975 440 HP and truck engines used the mis-named "6 pack rods".
To the OP, as the others have stated....just the stamp.
Dave
I've heard people find them in the regular passenger car engines too
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 04:46 AM
As far as the differences look at the block casting numbers 
HP versus non HP have the same casting number correct 
As far as visual core shift, I have seen Moapr RB and Hemi blocks have very noticeable differences in the front of the block where the cam tunnel is in relation to the main tunnels, lots of other little things also 
HP versus non HP have the same casting number correct As far as visual core shift, I have seen Moapr RB and Hemi blocks have very noticeable differences in the front of the block where the cam tunnel is in relation to the main tunnels, lots of other little things also
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 08:19 AM
Exactly! It doesn't take X-ray vision to notice holes not centered in bosses, etc.
R.
R.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 06:18 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
Regardless of year the block is the same except the stamp.
HP engines have: HP Cam, windage tray, bigger oil pan, HP exhaust manifolds, and the Carter carb.
For any given year all 440s use the same pistons, rods, crank (all forged in the earlier years), intake, heads (only 68 and up, 67 uses a bigger exhaust valve in the same 915 casting).
The only exception to this rule are the 6 pack engines. After the introduction of the "6 pack rods" in 1970 its also murky as to which engines came with the "6 pack rods" but most seem to have them by the mid-late 70s.
Not that murky; all 1970 - 1975 440 HP and truck engines used the mis-named "6 pack rods".
To the OP, as the others have stated....just the stamp.
Dave
I've heard people find them in the regular passenger car engines too
It's possible (and even likely) that there are exceptions to any rule; QC wasn't exactly top notch.....but I doubt there are a statistically significant number of non-HP 440's with the heavy rods and related damper.
Dave
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 07:34 PM
1970-1 440 out of a C body would have the small rods if it was a none HP Motor. I have had plenty of these. Quality Control in 1970 at Chrysler was basically none existent. Making a decision on blocks if they become HP or HP2 or high performance motor would of been a big job. There were a lot of 440 motors cast for the 1970 build. I believe the number of 440s complete motors built was around 750,000 over its life time of the motor. That is complete motors, how many blocks for warrenty or counter sale were also built. Lot of blocks to look at to decide if they are for HP 440s or not.
As for the HP block pricing, any block can become an HP block with a set of stamps. So why pay the price for something that can be created that is only bought to trick someone that the engine might be the original motor to you car looking at the front pad.
As for the HP block pricing, any block can become an HP block with a set of stamps. So why pay the price for something that can be created that is only bought to trick someone that the engine might be the original motor to you car looking at the front pad.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 09:29 PM
Because there is an unlimited supply of stupid or ignorant people out there, and some of them have big money burning a hole in their pockets.
ALSO,
Remember that in the Chevy world, there was a Lot of difference between a high performance engine and a regular mill. Same goes for Ford, Pontiac, Olds, etc.
Take the 396, for example. The regular engine got 2 bolt block, cast crank, oval port heads. The High Performance engine got 4 bolt block, forged crank, rectangular port heads. Or my '72 350. About the only things that were the same between the 2-barrel or regular performance 4-barrel and the LT1 were the oil pump, water pump, valve covers maybe, rocker arms and pushrods, and assorted bolts for everything except connecting rods. So when I found a disassembled LT1 for a reasonable price I drooled. Still couldn't afford it, but what a wealth of better parts.
My point is, when you come from that kind of world, the letters "HP" stamped on the block mean a lot more than they would to a Mopar savant. Even if you tell them it isn't the original block, it will probably still be worth more to them. And remember they have the big bucks burning a hole in their pocket.
R.
ALSO,
Remember that in the Chevy world, there was a Lot of difference between a high performance engine and a regular mill. Same goes for Ford, Pontiac, Olds, etc.
Take the 396, for example. The regular engine got 2 bolt block, cast crank, oval port heads. The High Performance engine got 4 bolt block, forged crank, rectangular port heads. Or my '72 350. About the only things that were the same between the 2-barrel or regular performance 4-barrel and the LT1 were the oil pump, water pump, valve covers maybe, rocker arms and pushrods, and assorted bolts for everything except connecting rods. So when I found a disassembled LT1 for a reasonable price I drooled. Still couldn't afford it, but what a wealth of better parts.
My point is, when you come from that kind of world, the letters "HP" stamped on the block mean a lot more than they would to a Mopar savant. Even if you tell them it isn't the original block, it will probably still be worth more to them. And remember they have the big bucks burning a hole in their pocket.
R.
Posted By: Digger73
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 09:46 PM
My son's friend had me help out with his 73 Plymouth. He installed a 440 where a 400 was. No big deal but, he was all tweeked out about his 440 not being an HP block. I asked him if he really wanted an HP block? Of course he was about to wet his pants at the prospect of an HP block. So, while he was watching I pulled my stamps out and stamped HP on the identification block. The look on his face was priceless. After the shock wore off he then asked the question, Is that the only difference between a non HP block and an HP block? I just smiled. 
Digger73 (Mike)
Digger73 (Mike)
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/25/15 09:49 PM
Quote:
Because there is an unlimited supply of stupid or ignorant people out there, and some of them have big money burning a hole in their pockets.
ALSO,
Remember that in the Chevy world, there was a Lot of difference between a high performance engine and a regular mill. Same goes for Ford, Pontiac, Olds, etc.
Take the 396, for example. The regular engine got 2 bolt block, cast crank, oval port heads. The High Performance engine got 4 bolt block, forged crank, rectangular port heads. Or my '72 350. About the only things that were the same between the 2-barrel or regular performance 4-barrel and the LT1 were the oil pump, water pump, valve covers maybe, rocker arms and pushrods, and assorted bolts for everything except connecting rods. So when I found a disassembled LT1 for a reasonable price I drooled. Still couldn't afford it, but what a wealth of better parts.
My point is, when you come from that kind of world, the letters "HP" stamped on the block mean a lot more than they would to a Mopar savant. Even if you tell them it isn't the original block, it will probably still be worth more to them. And remember they have the big bucks burning a hole in their pocket.
R.
...which is why I don't subscribe to the value placed on #'s motors for Mopars. Unlike most GM products, Mopars have the engine in the VIN and the difference between HP and not was negligable....these aren't Corvettes or Chevelles. Dave
Posted By: mikemee1331
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 12:38 AM
Quote:Quote:
440 block - $300
440HP block - $700
difference - $400, well that and the HP stamp
So the uninformed are paying more for the same block. Thanks for clearing that up.
unless it's the infamous HP2 block! then the price goes to $900.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 12:51 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
440 block - $300
440HP block - $700
difference - $400, well that and the HP stamp
So the uninformed are paying more for the same block. Thanks for clearing that up.
unless it's the infamous HP2 block! then the price goes to $900.
Posted By: cudaman1969
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 03:57 AM
Ok, the number at the end of the casting number i was told meant how many cylinder molds had been replaced as they where used to cast each block, so a 1 would be what the guy was looking for, to be used for a HP block. The best mold the best block, less chance of core shift. No need for x-ray vision.
Posted By: mopar346
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 04:04 AM
Quote:
Ok, the number at the end of the casting number i was told meant how many cylinder molds had been replaced as they where used to cast each block, so a 1 would be what the guy was looking for, to be used for a HP block. The best mold the best block, less chance of core shift. No need for x-ray vision.
Not sure that makes sense or maybe I don't understand you. If each replacement mold carrier the sunsequent number why would it matter the 1st molds were the best. I would think the 1 block out of the 4th mold would be better than the 100th block out of the 1st mold. If you thought is correct (again, assuming I understand you) then all HP blocks would be -1 blocks and I don't believe that is the case.
Posted By: cudaman1969
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 04:38 AM
Quote:Quote:
Ok, the number at the end of the casting number i was told meant how many cylinder molds had been replaced as they where used to cast each block, so a 1 would be what the guy was looking for, to be used for a HP block. The best mold the best block, less chance of core shift. No need for x-ray vision.
Not sure that makes sense or maybe I don't understand you. If each replacement mold carrier the sunsequent number why would it matter the 1st molds were the best. I would think the 1 block out of the 4th mold would be better than the 100th block out of the 1st mold. If you thought is correct (again, assuming I understand you) then all HP blocks would be -1 blocks and I don't believe that is the case.
As each block is cast the mold deteriates a little till the mold is "patched up" where ever its needed meaning not as good as the first run. All this is in the old DC manual
Posted By: mopar346
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 05:12 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
Ok, the number at the end of the casting number i was told meant how many cylinder molds had been replaced as they where used to cast each block, so a 1 would be what the guy was looking for, to be used for a HP block. The best mold the best block, less chance of core shift. No need for x-ray vision.
Not sure that makes sense or maybe I don't understand you. If each replacement mold carrier the sunsequent number why would it matter the 1st molds were the best. I would think the 1 block out of the 4th mold would be better than the 100th block out of the 1st mold. If you thought is correct (again, assuming I understand you) then all HP blocks would be -1 blocks and I don't believe that is the case.
As each block is cast the mold deteriates a little till the mold is "patched up" where ever its needed meaning not as good as the first run. All this is in the old DC manual
I get that it's only logic, don't need a manual to tell me that, but are you saying they changed the -X number for every block they cast? If that is the case way is there not a -25. But again I would think the first few blocks or maybe the first few hundred cast from a mold are the best, again only logical. I guess I am failing to understand the relationship of the dash number to the mold, is it the second block out of the mold or is it the second mold used?
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 05:41 AM
Quote:
Ok, the number at the end of the casting number i was told meant how many cylinder molds had been replaced as they where used to cast each block, so a 1 would be what the guy was looking for, to be used for a HP block. The best mold the best block, less chance of core shift. No need for x-ray vision.
Except that's not what that number means.
Molds are of sand, they get destroyed each time a block is done being cast. That's why you have "freeze plugs", to get the sand out of the inside of the block.
The number means which form the mold came out of. They used multiple forms to make multiple molds to pour multiple blocks in one batch. The don't make them one at a time. The number is useful for finding out which form made a bad mold, that is all and it is nothing more.
As for using your eye to see core shift, well I think the cylinder walls would be the number one concern for an "HP" block and you cannot use your eyes for that. The cam tunnel is machined and if it's off a bit, so what, it's not like that is as important or as stressed as the cylinder. Lord know it's not like Chrysler worried all that much about how well the blocks were machine. Lifter bores pop to mind.
Posted By: cudaman1969
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 04:03 PM
Can't remember more, been awile, but it did'nt go to 25 since there is only 8 cylinders. How many 440 blocks where made( with wood forms to make sand molds) that year?When someone doubts what's said do the research, report back, then all this back and forth is done. Of course the workers could have just stamped the block for HP they needed as they came out of the rack, not looking at numbers. If it ran when testing, use it.
Posted By: mopar346
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 04:20 PM
Quote:
Can't remember more, been awile, but it did'nt go to 25 since there is only 8 cylinders. How many 440 blocks where made( with wood forms to make sand molds) that year?When someone doubts what's said do the research, report back, then all this back and forth is done. Of course the workers could have just stamped the block for HP they needed as they came out of the rack, not looking at numbers. If it ran when testing, use it.
The dash number had nothing to do with the cylinder count, think about all the 340-6 blocks people want to think are T/A blocks. I agree, the worker grabbed a block to build that had been though (assuming) some sort of quality control, simple as a useable block and stamped it if it were an HP build.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 04:25 PM
The "dash number" is the number of times the cores had been repaired, something like that.
It has been proven over and over that the dash number means NOTHING to the quality of the block. There are -1 blocks that came from the factory with 0.090" thick cylinder walls.
The ONLY way to tell how thick the cylinder walls are is to UT them, and fortunately the UT prices have come down to the point that they are quite common.
IF the dash number hype indeed came from old Direct Connection books, consider the source, the same bonehead or liar who promulgated the myth that '75 and newer blocks have thin cylinder walls.
BACK IN THE DAY We didn't know that UT equipment even existed. So we had to use whatever clues existed to grade blocks. The books from the early '70s pretty much all recommended using the centering of machined holes in cast bosses, like the cam bore, as the way to see if substantial core shift had occurred. This isn't something that was just made up.
When you consider that the raw blocks coming down the machine line faced a series of machines that each did their job by placing the machined hole exactly where it was supposed to go in space, in other words using X-Y-Z coordinates, if the machined hole isn't in the center of a cast boss then there is something wrong with the casting.
Simple as that.
It wasn't like some sleepy machine operator put the hole in the wrong place.
R.
It has been proven over and over that the dash number means NOTHING to the quality of the block. There are -1 blocks that came from the factory with 0.090" thick cylinder walls.
The ONLY way to tell how thick the cylinder walls are is to UT them, and fortunately the UT prices have come down to the point that they are quite common.
IF the dash number hype indeed came from old Direct Connection books, consider the source, the same bonehead or liar who promulgated the myth that '75 and newer blocks have thin cylinder walls.
BACK IN THE DAY We didn't know that UT equipment even existed. So we had to use whatever clues existed to grade blocks. The books from the early '70s pretty much all recommended using the centering of machined holes in cast bosses, like the cam bore, as the way to see if substantial core shift had occurred. This isn't something that was just made up.
When you consider that the raw blocks coming down the machine line faced a series of machines that each did their job by placing the machined hole exactly where it was supposed to go in space, in other words using X-Y-Z coordinates, if the machined hole isn't in the center of a cast boss then there is something wrong with the casting.
Simple as that.
It wasn't like some sleepy machine operator put the hole in the wrong place.
R.
Posted By: vdriver
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 04:32 PM
This is a copy and paste directly from 440source.com:
"While we are on the subject of casting numbers, often there will be what is known as a "tooling revision number" or a "dash number" after the casting number. A 1968 440 block, for instance, might read 2536430-12, or sometimes there will just be a space, such as 2536430 12, or sometimes 253643012. While 2536430 would be the casting number, the 12 would be the tooling revision number, which indicates how many times the tooling (core molds) have been reconditioned back to the proper specifications or modified to include improvements. After so many "pours" the tooling gets worn and needs to be reshaped or reconditioned. So theoretically, higher numbers will be later dates and have any casting improvements incorporated into them. The only problem with this theory is that engines were produced in such volume that many many different sets of tooling were used concurrently to meet the necessary output. So while some may have lasted for quite a while, (in which case you will find later dates with earlier revisions) some got worn quickly or damaged and needed to be revised after a short time. So while in some cases, parts with later numbers may include some improvements the earlier parts may not have, on a practical level, it means nothing as far as the quality of the piece. In other words, don't waste your time looking for an early or late tooling revision number. Blocks, heads, water pump housings and many other cast parts have revision numbers as well.
Another thing to keep in mind is that tooling revision numbers have absolutely nothing to do with core shift, which is when the core molds move around as the cast iron is poured. That will vary depending on how much the molds moved in the specific piece (usually engine block) you are talking about, and the only way to tell if there is enough material in the cylinder walls is to sonic check the specific block you are going to use. As you probably learned from our "Everything you've ever wanted to know about engine blocks" page, (and if you haven't read this page yet, you should) there are no thinwall blocks, however we have found core shift to be less prevalent in the later blocks, perhaps due to improvements in casting technology over the two decades the engines were in production."
http://www.440source.com/partnumberinfo.htm
"While we are on the subject of casting numbers, often there will be what is known as a "tooling revision number" or a "dash number" after the casting number. A 1968 440 block, for instance, might read 2536430-12, or sometimes there will just be a space, such as 2536430 12, or sometimes 253643012. While 2536430 would be the casting number, the 12 would be the tooling revision number, which indicates how many times the tooling (core molds) have been reconditioned back to the proper specifications or modified to include improvements. After so many "pours" the tooling gets worn and needs to be reshaped or reconditioned. So theoretically, higher numbers will be later dates and have any casting improvements incorporated into them. The only problem with this theory is that engines were produced in such volume that many many different sets of tooling were used concurrently to meet the necessary output. So while some may have lasted for quite a while, (in which case you will find later dates with earlier revisions) some got worn quickly or damaged and needed to be revised after a short time. So while in some cases, parts with later numbers may include some improvements the earlier parts may not have, on a practical level, it means nothing as far as the quality of the piece. In other words, don't waste your time looking for an early or late tooling revision number. Blocks, heads, water pump housings and many other cast parts have revision numbers as well.
Another thing to keep in mind is that tooling revision numbers have absolutely nothing to do with core shift, which is when the core molds move around as the cast iron is poured. That will vary depending on how much the molds moved in the specific piece (usually engine block) you are talking about, and the only way to tell if there is enough material in the cylinder walls is to sonic check the specific block you are going to use. As you probably learned from our "Everything you've ever wanted to know about engine blocks" page, (and if you haven't read this page yet, you should) there are no thinwall blocks, however we have found core shift to be less prevalent in the later blocks, perhaps due to improvements in casting technology over the two decades the engines were in production."
http://www.440source.com/partnumberinfo.htm
Posted By: mopar346
Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block - 02/26/15 04:56 PM
Quote:
It has been proven over and over that the dash number means NOTHING to the quality of the block.
Then we are on the same page, my response was to someone saying the earlier dash number were used for H blocks implying the integrity of the mold was better.