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Overcharging issue? -UPDATE

Posted By: MONC

Overcharging issue? -UPDATE - 12/28/14 10:38 PM

Took the Charger out for a short drive ( bout 10 miles round trip ) and noticed on the way home the ammeter was jumping a little ( positive). Didn't think too much of it as I hadn't driven the car for a while and figured the battery needed charging.

Took the car out for a longer drive ( about 30 miles mostly highway) and on the way up the ammeter read +20 the whole way up.

On the way back it was still around +20 then about 15 or 20 miles in started to go higher about +40 (almost pegged).

The car ran fine but concerned about overcharging.

Today I started the car and after warm up and the car idling the ammeter read just slightly positive ( normal ).

I checked the voltage at the battery before starting it was about 12.75V . While idling the battery voltage was 17.50 - 17.62 volts ( seems high to me ) .

I checked the voltage at the regulator at idle and it was 6.8-7.5 volts.
I checked the alternator at idle and it was about 7.8- 8.2 volts

I checked the ground to the voltage regulator ( using the bracket holding the regulator as one side and an open hole in the radiator support on the other side with the ohmmeter ) and got a good connection.

The car runs with a Petronix electronic ignition system, does this effect the type of voltage regulator I need for an otherwise stock 69 set up?
I've seen solid state replacement voltage regulators for sale, but not sure what's in the stock 69 regulator.

Thoughts?
Overcharging or not?
TIA
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/28/14 10:50 PM

DO NOT run it anymore (not even 10 seconds) till you swap the reg. I'm assuming you have an OE type electromechanical type reg? Your parts house has a Wells VR 706 (iirc) electronic replacemnt reg (does not look identical to OE) and mrrandyj at aol dot com has an electronic version with an black cover that does look identical to the OE electromechanical ones for $29 to your door. Reportedly you can swap your current cover to an electronic parts house replacement reg but I ain't sure which one that is.
Posted By: MONC

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/28/14 10:54 PM

Thanks for the reply Robert.
This is the VR I saw on Ebay Motors - is this the type I should get :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Charger-Ch...0ce&vxp=mtr
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/28/14 11:04 PM

Yes! dirt cheap/no tax/free shipping/USA made/good seller/expedited shipping. that's as good as it gets
Posted By: RJS

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/28/14 11:22 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the reply Robert.
This is the VR I saw on Ebay Motors - is this the type I should get :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Charger-Ch...0ce&vxp=mtr



Once your sure you have your charging straight I have a Reproduction cover with Red writing I would sell if you need.
Ron

Attached picture 8376470-IMG_0557(Large).JPG
Posted By: MONC

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/28/14 11:22 PM

Ok thanks .

So are those readings not right?
Was thinking that VR and battery should be about same , but is Ammeter reading the voltage being created at the battery or from voltage regulator or where?
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/28/14 11:51 PM


Without further testing, I wouldn't assume the problem is the regulator. A high current draw or direct short somewhere in the system will cause a perfectly good alternator and regulator to charge at the max rate.
Posted By: MONC

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/29/14 12:07 AM

Quote:


Without further testing, I wouldn't assume the problem is the regulator. A high current draw or direct short somewhere in the system will cause a perfectly good alternator and regulator to charge at the max rate.



What further testing do you suggest John?

Do those voltage readings at the VR and alternator at idle indicative of charging at the max rate?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/29/14 01:06 AM

Quote:

Do those voltage readings at the VR and alternator at idle indicative of charging at the max rate?

no, you took those readings at idle & the alt does not put out enough at idle which is why you have those low voltage numbers (8 ish) at the reg/alt field. At a higher RPM it will full field & put out the crazy numbers (17+ charging voltage) you mentioned earlier
Posted By: dezduster

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/29/14 01:14 AM

Something funky going on.
Voltage at battery before start 12.7
Voltage at battery while idling 17.7
Voltage at alternator while idling 7.8-8.2
Voltage at voltage regulator idling 6.8-7.5
Seems bad ground when checking voltages at alternator and regulator?? Makes me think clean your grounds and any contact points between alt and vr. Also loosen and tighten alternator bracket and VR to fire wall to ensure a good ground. ohm the wires between alt and vr check resistance from alt to AMP guage to battery clean bulk head connector. MY THOUGHTS ARE voltage at alt and vr should be the same as or close to battery. If not why? faulty meter? Just sounds like ground problem to me.
Im off to fallon for tires for daughter cant stay and help more.
Posted By: 70HemiGTX

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/29/14 03:29 PM

Don't be surprised if you have a bad connection at either the bulkhead connector or the connector on the steering column. Look at the heavy red wire at both connections. Look for discoloration of the plastic. Pull them apart if possible and check them. I had the same problem on my 71 Challenger and I changed everything out. Regulators, alternators, had it to two different shops, nothing. I was under the dash one day just looking around and saw a brown streak in the connection for the steering column to the main harness. I bypassed the connector and that took care of the overcharging problem. Remember, these connectors are 45 alomost 50 yrs. old.
Posted By: MONC

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/29/14 03:42 PM


I did look at the bulk head connections from the firewall side and the inside and I didn't notice any discoloration or corrosion. It's harder on the b-bodies to get up that far underneath the column so I couldn't get any farther than that.
The connection looked good at the ammeter itself, will doubled check the column harness connection - thanks for the reminder.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/29/14 04:56 PM

Quote:

I checked the voltage at the battery before starting it was about 12.75V . While idling the battery voltage was 17.50 - 17.62 volts ( seems high to me ) .

I checked the voltage at the regulator at idle and it was 6.8-7.5 volts.
I checked the alternator at idle and it was about 7.8- 8.2 volts





Double check your readings.

It is impossible to have 17.5 at the battery with 7.8-8.2 at the alternator.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/29/14 05:59 PM

Quote:

It is impossible to have 17.5 at the battery with 7.8-8.2 at the alternator.


Those are blue wire ign1 field terminal readings as opposed to a alt batt stud reading and they are low cuz they were taken at idle (alt ain't puttin out) whereas at a higher RPM the field terminal (blue wire circuit) voltage readings would be in the 17+ range (as would the entire electrical system) from the alt putting out what it is capable of & the bad (full fielded) reg telling/allowing it to put out all it can.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/29/14 10:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It is impossible to have 17.5 at the battery with 7.8-8.2 at the alternator.


Those are blue wire ign1 field terminal readings as opposed to a alt batt stud reading and they are low cuz they were taken at idle (alt ain't puttin out) whereas at a higher RPM the field terminal (blue wire circuit) voltage readings would be in the 17+ range (as would the entire electrical system) from the alt putting out what it is capable of & the bad (full fielded) reg telling/allowing it to put out all it can.


Ok he didn't specify that, but if so,
1. he is losing 1V between the alt and reg.
2.The ign side of the reg should be close to battery V or 17V,

You say the readings are low because the alt is at idle and not putting out yet his battery V is 17+ ????

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/29/14 11:03 PM

Oh OK I see what you are sayin cuz he does state that his batt voltage is 17+ at (normal/slow?) idle
Posted By: MONC

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/29/14 11:19 PM


I'm going to try and recheck my readings tomorrow as well as check the connections again from the bulkhead connector to the ammeter itself.
Posted By: dart4forte

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/29/14 11:35 PM

I've found that those stock early voltage regulators don't seem to handle the cold all too well. Anyone else experience that? Not sure if that's a good explanation.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/30/14 12:17 AM

Never had a weather related problem with my points type regulators that I recall. But the farthest north I ever was running this system during the winter was Memphis in 90-91. Yeah, it snowed there.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/30/14 12:51 AM

This may help

http://www.highimpactperformance.org/files/mopar001_1_.pdf
Keep us posted
Posted By: dart4forte

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/30/14 02:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks for the reply Robert.
This is the VR I saw on Ebay Motors - is this the type I should get :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Charger-Ch...0ce&vxp=mtr



Once your sure you have your charging straight I have a Reproduction cover with Red writing I would sell if you need.
Ron



I e-mailed Randy but it looks like I'll need one of your covers. Have any date coded for 1968?
Posted By: MONC

Re: Overcharging issue? - 12/30/14 03:45 AM

Quote:

This may help

http://www.highimpactperformance.org/files/mopar001_1_.pdf
Keep us posted



Thanks TJP , very helpful
Posted By: MONC

Re: Overcharging issue? -UPDATE - 01/03/15 07:24 PM


Ok I checked the back of the voltage regulator on the car - definitely a standard unit not for electronic, based on what RR said and the article that TJP posted.

So I bought the electronic one in the link above and installed it this morning. I think it did the trick. Ammeter in car reading near dead center, and no erratic movements.

New readings :

Battery at rest : 12.71v
Battery at idle : 14.7v
Alt at idle : 14.9v
Voltage Reg at idle : 14.1v

@ 1600 or so RPM readings didn't change much across the board.

I took the car for a short ride and no ammeter jumps and read close to dead center.
Obviously I'll have to go for a longer ride, but bad weather heading in this afternoon, so that'll have to wait ( hopefully not till Spring! )

In the meantime, thanks for all the input, as always
Posted By: TJP

Re: Overcharging issue? -UPDATE - 01/03/15 08:47 PM

Thanks for the feedback A lot do not post the final solution which leaves some of us wondering.

Your readings all look good except for 14.1 at the VR. I'm assuming that is on the ign or voltage sense side. It would be nice to see that number closer to the battery V at 14.7.
A .6 V drop between the two is a bit on the high side but when taking into account the multiple connections between the two points along with older harnesses etc it's not all that bad. The most likely source of the drop is the infamous bulkhead connections.

Posted By: MONC

Re: Overcharging issue? -UPDATE - 01/03/15 09:00 PM

Thanks for the help TJP .

Those numbers were not exact as they fluctuated slightly as the car was running, so I am not overly concerned at this point.

Once I can get it on the road for a longer drive and no issues and recheck of readings I'll feel better.

No chance of that now that it's snowing...
Posted By: MONC

Re: Overcharging issue? -UPDATE 4/18 - 04/18/15 08:17 PM


Ok so I took the car out for a bout a 20 minute ride last weekend and now the ammeter gauge needle is bouncing to the right.
It's not pegging and then coming back, it's not that bad, but it's very noticeable.
At idle it'll bounce slightly , no load so less bounce I guess.

So any suggestions? I have already checked if the new voltage regulator is grounded properly, and sanded the bolt threads etc. to ensure a good connection.
The car has a Petronix electronic ignition, if that helps.

Suggestions??
Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Overcharging issue? -UPDATE 4/18 - 04/18/15 08:39 PM

Install a volt gauge so you can see it while driving. If it maintains 14.5v while driving, the alternator is keeping up with demand. If it's below that, the alt is not keeping up.

If you're getting 14.9v at the battery, I bet you have some voltage drops equaling 0.4v between the battery and the blue wire at the voltage regulator.

You can measure the voltage between the battery + terminal and the blue wire at the alt. It should be 0.00v. Any higher indicates a voltage drop through the harness, which is bad.

I eventually installed a relay to bypass all the voltage drops through the bulkhead/ignition switch to finally get 14.5v at the battery.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Overcharging issue? -UPDATE 4/18 - 04/18/15 09:39 PM

The flickering is due to a flaky connection somewhere in the circuit or a load that is intermittent ( think turn signals as an example).

the ammeter is just responding to the current flowing through the system. the current is changing due to one of the following,
1. Ground issue between the body/ engine/ alternator/ regulator
2. Voltage sense line at the regulator is fluctuating due to
A. Ignition switch contacts /connections.
B. Bulk head connections.

3. Field circuit between the regulator and alternator has a flaky connection
4. loose /flakey connection between the battery and alternator which in turn causes the voltage to fluctuate in the circuit which causes the regulator/ alternator to respond.
5. Field / brush connections on the alternator are loose

You will have to try and isolate which circuit is fluctuating and causing the issue. refer to the previously posted article on how the system operates

NOTE
You will need a good analog voltmeter or oscilloscope as digital meters respond to slowly.
Posted By: MONC

Re: Overcharging issue? -UPDATE 4/18 - 04/20/15 12:34 AM

Thanks for making go back and read that article TJP.
When the author stated that a bad ground will make you go chasing your tail, I had to laugh.
And then I checked the ground listed, and I completely forgot about the engine ground.
It was never there when I got the car back from the paint and engine install. And the bolt that attaches to the rear of the head was missing after I got the heads rebuilt .

So I went off to the auto parts store this morning to put a generic one on there for now and get some bolts that would work.
I checked continuity throughout the install and fired up the car when done.
The ammeter needle slowly went to near center and stayed there.
A little shake but it was idling and not completely warmed up.
So I took her for a 20 or 30 minute ride, and I'll be damned if the thing didn't stay near dead center without a shake or shimmy !
So it looks I am good to go and onto other things and hopefully drivin' her around more religiously this season .
Oh and even got invited to a car show by someone who saw me at the gas station and stopped and asked if I could bring it to show he was sponsoring. smile

Thanks again for everyone's help.
Posted By: TJP

Re: Overcharging issue? -UPDATE 4/18 - 04/20/15 04:28 PM

Your welcome and I hope it's fixed wink

I always taught students in my classes, When one understands how something works fixing it becomes easier.
beer
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