Moparts

Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP

Posted By: 69/70 Plymies

Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/24/14 08:09 PM

Finishing assembly on rebuild. In reference to the oil sump strainer positioning, the 1970 Service Manual states: ...oil strainer must touch the bottom of the oil pan. The shop installed it 3/8" above the bottom of the pan. I informed them of the above information and a debate ensued. My question, Mopar fans... "Does "must" really mean MUST?
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/24/14 08:24 PM

The pickup tube is quite long and the threads where it goes into the block are a pretty bad stress riser. With vibration from the engine running, the tube fatigues and snaps off right at the block. The answer to this is to support the pickup tube to eliminate the flexing.
Mopar engineers were very good at finding cheap ways to do things. Supporting the other end of the pickup tube with the oil pan was one of them.

Somehow, you must support that tube.

R.
Posted By: yellow70charger

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/24/14 09:13 PM

I had a 440 marine engine with a hinged pickup it didnt touch at least all the time, but i dont know for sure
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/24/14 09:14 PM

Most Mopar enthusiast will say never install it that way I shoot for making it barely touch or no more than 1/4 inch off the bottom of the pan I use a coat hangar or a peice of 1/8 inch welding rod to push through the oil drain plug to check those clearances on the engine stand with the motor upside down I've been building HiPo(above 500 hp on pump gas) street and drag racing motors since the early 1970 using stock oil pans with that method , that FSM methods works really good on the stock Mopar oil pickups
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/24/14 09:43 PM

What Dog said ideally you want it touching for the vibration potential. Tho many have lasted fine being suspended. If already together I would let it be & if not buttoned up yet I would want it supported. On the stock car I drilled some holes around the perimeter of the pickup & used mini nuts/bolts to give support via contact with the pan but more for making sure the flat pickup screen ain't closer than 1/4" on my high rpm app. Unless you will be turning high RPM's/eng with hi vol pump/enlarged oiling passages then the OE screen/offset partial flat metal design will be fine as far as flow. Support it if you are in that position to change it otherwise if suspended likely you'll be OK
Posted By: 69/70 Plymies

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/24/14 10:40 PM

Rapid R,

It is all assembled. I'm concerned about leaving it suspended for this reason (in addition to the lack of support). While priming the oiling system with a priming driveshaft and 3 quarts oil in the pan, after a short time the oil pump began sucking air. The new oil pump is the standard OE.

69/70
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/24/14 10:52 PM

I'm thinking that is a std 4 qt sump pan. Since it ain't running even 3 oughta be enough to not have an issue (for it to prime/drain OK). Describe how it is "sucking air", what's going on? I gotta jog & I'll check back later
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/24/14 11:03 PM

It'll be fine...I've been building engines for close to 4 decades, and I always prefer the pick up off the bottom floor by 1/4-3/8 max....never had an issues with losing a pick up tube, IMHO you have more of a chance cracking/losing a tube if it's touching the pan, and the pan gets punched
Posted By: 69/70 Plymies

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/24/14 11:09 PM

Hey, "tired" Rapid R,

The oil pan is the 402. When it began sucking air, I could hear a gurgling sound and the oil pressure dropped way down.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/25/14 01:24 AM

I was thinking during the run, did 3/4 qt go into the filter? With that pan 4qts should be in the sump (actually with the correct stick/tube it should be reading full or very close to it with 4 qts on level ground). Did you have close to 4qts in & what was the psi before/after it changed & if not I'd go ahead & get it to full (4qts in sump) & retry it
Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/25/14 01:26 AM

Did you leave it loose in the block? It should be tightened with a pipe wrench and have high temp pipe dope on it.
Posted By: ahy

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/25/14 02:25 AM

The OE style pickup has a "shoe" that touches and establishes clearance for flow into the screen. Some aftermarket have the "shoe" and some don't.

If you have the shoe type it is supposed to touch. I certainly believe it has worked fine for many with the clearance. Still I have heard cases where vibration broke the pickup. Not pretty. Stories were on MOPARTs so they must be true... right? Personally, I would re-do it or have the shop re-do it. Plus you get every last bit of pan capacity.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/25/14 04:54 AM

Quote:

The OE style pickup has a "shoe" that touches and establishes clearance for flow into the screen. Some aftermarket have the "shoe" and some don't.

If you have the shoe type it is supposed to touch. I certainly believe it has worked fine for many with the clearance. Still I have heard cases where vibration broke the pickup. Not pretty. Stories were on MOPARTs so they must be true... right? Personally, I would re-do it or have the shop re-do it. Plus you get every last bit of pan capacity.


I belive that a lot of the broken off oil pickups where after market pieces, like Milidon and Moroso, that cracked and broke off, not the stock OEM Mopar ones I've been into many, many stock Mopar V8, 273 through 426 street Hemi to U and V code 440 cars that had the pickups either on the bottom of the oil pan from the factory, seeing the witness marks in the bottom of the pan, or they where close enough to not allow the oil dipstick to be inserted sideways through the oil drain hole to clear the bottom of the pickup and pan BTW, for all you that didn't buy your original Mopar muscle cars new there was a service bulletin issued in the late 1960 to tell all customers to add one additonial quart of oil to all cars with the 402 oil pans with the stock windage trays, IE the 1966 to 1971 Magnum or Hi Po 440 and 383 production wedges OP, run that oilpan with 5 quarts, not 4
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/25/14 12:44 PM

Quote:

The pickup tube is quite long and the threads where it goes into the block are a pretty bad stress riser. With vibration from the engine running, the tube fatigues and snaps off right at the block. The answer to this is to support the pickup tube to eliminate the flexing.
Mopar engineers were very good at finding cheap ways to do things. Supporting the other end of the pickup tube with the oil pan was one of them.

Somehow, you must support that tube.

R.




I've seen this happen twice in my life. After the first time over 30 years ago I started paying attention to the threads on the pickup. Some seem to have rolled threads and the end of the thread is smooth, no stress riser. Others seem to have cut threads and the end of the thread ends in more of a 'crack' forming a stress riser. I've started polishing the end of the thread on these with a Dremel to get rid of what might be a future problem. Maybe I'm paranoid but one of the failures that I'm aware of happened at the top of third gear with spectacular results that I really don't want happening to me.
Posted By: 69/70 Plymies

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/27/14 04:13 PM

Getting back to the situation:

GTX Max...The tube(NOS Mopar) was tightened securely without dope.

Cab Burge...Specs call for 5qt. total. So, are you saying to run 5+1=6 quarts OR 4+1=5 quarts with 402 pans?

Rapid R...This is what it did while priming with drill & priming shaft and 3 qrts oil in pan with bottom of strainer 3/8" above the bottom of the pan (which makes the majority of the debris screen 5/8" above the bottom of the pan): oil pressure went to 50 psi,then gurgling sound started and psi slowly went down to 40 psi and we stopped the drill. Added 2 qrts more oil (5 qrt total) and had 50 psi constant with no gurgling.

???? Another question I have is this: With the pickup screen this "high" will solids collect at the bottom of the pan that will not be get suspended in the oil? I like to drain oil when it's hot, thinking I have the solids suspended in the oil and thus are removed when the oil is drained out.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/27/14 04:35 PM

Quote:

Rapid R...This is what it did while priming with drill & priming shaft and 3 qrts oil in pan with bottom of strainer 3/8" above the bottom of the pan (which makes the majority of the debris screen 5/8" above the bottom of the pan): oil pressure went to 50 psi,then gurgling sound started and psi slowly went down to 40 psi and we stopped the drill. Added 2 qrts more oil (5 qrt total) and had 50 psi constant with no gurgling.

???? Another question I have is this: With the pickup screen this "high" will solids collect at the bottom of the pan that will not be get suspended in the oil? I like to drain oil when it's hot, thinking I have the solids suspended in the oil and thus are removed when the oil is drained out.


The pickup is somewhat too high & yes you need that "extra"? qt to maintain psi. No opinion on the potential for it to crack beings it is suspended but just me I wouldn't sweat that but it is a legitimate concern. On the suspended solids as you said just drain it when hot & you might jack up the front to tilt the pan a bit rearward to get more out & it's a non issue, everything there will drain out. I've even tossed a qt or 2 of cheap oil at that point to flush more of the crudded oil out of the bottome crevices of the sump. Kinda OCD but thats me
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/27/14 05:05 PM

Quote:

Getting back to the situation:

GTX Max...The tube(NOS Mopar) was tightened securely without dope.

Cab Burge...Specs call for 5qt. total. So, are you saying to run 5+1=6 quarts OR 4+1=5 quarts with 402 pans?





402 pan is a 4qt sump + 1 for the filter , 5 total .

I would put dope on the threads to make sure it's sealed
Posted By: 69/70 Plymies

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/27/14 05:31 PM

Hey,JohnRR,

What's your take on the height of the strainer? The bottom of the strainer is 3/8" above the bottom of the oil pan which puts the horizontal area of the screen +/- 5/8" above.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/27/14 07:00 PM

Quote:

Hey,JohnRR,

What's your take on the height of the strainer? The bottom of the strainer is 3/8" above the bottom of the oil pan which puts the horizontal area of the screen +/- 5/8" above.




It's too high off the bottom to me , the strainer is designed in such a way that it can be closer to the bottom of the pan and not have a problem drawing in oil.
Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/27/14 07:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Getting back to the situation:

GTX Max...The tube(NOS Mopar) was tightened securely without dope.

Cab Burge...Specs call for 5qt. total. So, are you saying to run 5+1=6 quarts OR 4+1=5 quarts with 402 pans?





402 pan is a 4qt sump + 1 for the filter , 5 total .

I would put dope on the threads to make sure it's sealed




I agree with John. It probably should still seal if the pickup was tightened well but since you're sucking air I'd definitely put some high temp dope on it to rule that out.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/27/14 08:36 PM

Five in the pan and one in the filter, 6 total on oil and filter changes I put all of the 6th quart I can get into the oil filter before installing it. I do fill it 5 or 6 times, letting it sit to level off, until it won't take anymore
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/27/14 09:13 PM

Quote:

Five in the pan and one in the filter, 6 total on oil and filter changes I put all of the 6th quart I can get into the oil filter before installing it. I do fill it 5 or 6 times, letting it sit to level off, until it won't take anymore




What pan are you talking about Cab ?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/28/14 01:37 AM

The sucking air sound is the pickup being uncovered not the pickup threads having no sealer cuz the extra qt silenced it. You would need that extra qt to stop that & if that amt of oil is letting it happen now it'd be worse when running/shaking/vibrating (so you wouldn't want any less than that amount). Extra oil is more windage but the pickup getting uncovered is much much worse. The screen distance (5/8") from the pickup bottom is what counts not the flat metal "shoe" underneath it distance and the pickup/pan are rarely parallel & depending on how/where you measured it might be more than 5/8 and the distance of the highest corner of a tilted screen is the effective distance as it can & will suck air until the highest round perimeter edge of the screen is submerged . Short version: high perf oiling mods not withstanding (high perf build can have adequate psi but starve the rods (the end of the line/most important/critical area) if oiling mods ain't done) but if you have adequate psi for your mild build you are OK (use however many qts to achieve that) & no opinion on the suspended pickup.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/28/14 03:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Five in the pan and one in the filter, 6 total on oil and filter changes I put all of the 6th quart I can get into the oil filter before installing it. I do fill it 5 or 6 times, letting it sit to level off, until it won't take anymore




What pan are you talking about Cab ?


402 pan 383/440 Magnum motors
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/28/14 03:58 AM

I have a 402 pan on a 71 hp motor. Last time I had it off I did a bunch of fluid level measurements and discovered that 4 quarts was way below the windage tray, and of course this is at static condition, with no oil suspended up top. At 5.5 quarts I. The pan the level was still bellow the belly of the windage tray.

I decided that 6 quarts total (including whatever the filter holds) is not a problem.
Posted By: mopar346

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/28/14 04:19 AM

So a follow up question: Should the oil level be maintained at a quart above the factory full mark?
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/28/14 04:27 AM

In my opinion yes. I consider 1 quart above to be the max, and the full mark on the dipstick to be the min ("add"). I re-marked my dipstick accordingly.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/28/14 05:57 AM

Quote:

So a follow up question: Should the oil level be maintained at a quart above the factory full mark?


bottom line: with the proper weight you need "just enough" oil in the sump to maintain an adequate psi. 8 per 1000 RPM is plenty. A low idle psi is acceptable as long as it jumps as soon as you touch the throttle. internal oiling mods are critical in a perf app
Posted By: moper

Re: Does "must" really mean MUST? Ref: 1970 383HP - 10/28/14 01:51 PM

Quote:

[
It's too high off the bottom to me , the strainer is designed in such a way that it can be closer to the bottom of the pan and not have a problem drawing in oil.




x2. I keep them within 1/8" of the pan and check with clay during final assembly. Never had an "unsupported" one break off on me but I also "buff" the threads on a wire wheel before threading it in.
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