mini-starter woes..

mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 05:30 AM

Hey gang..
Well, got the 426 Hemi going in the Daytona. She started fine initially but the started to act funny. Soon found out that the, for a lack of the appropriate term, the cone part of the starter case cracked. Then I put another new starter in and that darn one doesn't act right. Come to find out the gear teeth of the starter isn't fully seating the converter ring gear teeth. Based on the shiney part of the ring gear teeth, less than half of the surface of the teeth are meshing together. Anyone have this problem before? To get the teeth more fully engaged, do I need to find a better performance minded starter or get one that "clocks"?

The left starter is the first one in which the case broke and the right one is the one I replaced it with. It is the one where the teeth aren't fully engaging now.

Attached picture 8257283-IMG_20140830_135722_830.jpg

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Posted By: CokeBottleKid

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 09:42 AM

Somethings wrong... look at your bellhousing or converter.... pics are helpful.

Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 01:38 PM

did you just put everything back together or has this been a running, driving car and the starter broke? this almost sounds like an alignment issue but some history would be helpful.

Posted By: moparx

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 01:56 PM

if i'm not mistaken, some blocks need a slight grinding of the casting where the starter bolts up to prevent breaking[cracking] the nose piece as shown. the only one i have ran into that problem with is the mockup block i am using on my humpback project. after discovering that issue, since it is for mockup purposes and the block is junk anyway, i just have the starter attached with one bolt. if i were going to use that block, the grinder would come out to clearance the block as needed.

Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 02:05 PM

Quote:

if i'm not mistaken, some blocks need a slight grinding of the casting where the starter bolts up to prevent breaking[cracking] the nose piece as shown./quote]
yep, shoot Commando1 a PM. he can fill you in.

Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 03:22 PM

The complete drivetrain was installed a couple of months ago; new everything. Previously, the 440 was in there with this tranny. The starter was the conventional starter of the era, no problems. I bolted everything up and installed as a complete drivetrain. Initially, the starter seemed to operate perfectly, then over time, something started to sound wrong. The problem sound steadily got worse until one day, the starter would just activate, but the motor wouldn't turn over. The torque converter is a brand new unit as well. A couple of days ago I removed the old starter and installed the new one. Right off the bat, the new one didn't sound right. A friend came over last night and we took off the inspection plate to the tranny and noticed the paint on the ring gear teeth was only worn off at about a 1/4 of the teeth's depth. That seems to indicate the teeth from the starter aren't reaching deep enough with the teeth of the converter and slipping occasionally. This must be the weird sound from the new one..... It does about three revolutions and the pitch of the sound goes higher ( maybe that's when the starter free spins for a nano-second as the teeth don't contact? Only guessing. My friend stated there are starters in which I can adjust such that the gears of the starter is closer to the ring gear of the converter and hence, well have deeper meshing of teeth.

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 03:26 PM

I recommended the PowerMaster minis a while back in one of your threads, NEVER had an issue with any of the one I've installed, I've had some installed for over a decade, the only thing they ever needed was the positive stud shortened to avoid clearance issues with the block...

everyone else that uses the factory supplied units, seems to have issues of some sort, Powermaster also has a "clockable" unit for HEMI/big tube header use, little spendy, IIRC about $300-$350

Mike

Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 03:44 PM

Quote:

I recommended the PowerMaster minis a while back in one of your threads, NEVER had an issue with any of the one I've installed, I've had some installed for over a decade, the only thing they ever needed was the positive stud shortened to avoid clearance issues with the block...

everyone else that uses the factory supplied units, seems to have issues of some sort, Powermaster also has a "clockable" unit for HEMI/big tube header use, little spendy, IIRC about $300-$350

Mike

Yes, you mentioned it, but never knew there were "issues" with the factory units. It's my understanding after going to the Powermaster site the "clockable" units are for the HEMI 4speeds because of their unique bellhousings?

Mike, do you get the 9513 or 9523?

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/200_ft_-lb__starters.html

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 03:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I recommended the PowerMaster minis a while back in one of your threads, NEVER had an issue with any of the one I've installed, I've had some installed for over a decade, the only thing they ever needed was the positive stud shortened to avoid clearance issues with the block...

everyone else that uses the factory supplied units, seems to have issues of some sort, Powermaster also has a "clockable" unit for HEMI/big tube header use, little spendy, IIRC about $300-$350

Mike

Yes, you mentioned it, but never knew there were "issues" with the factory units. It's my understanding after going to the Powermaster site the "clockable" units are for the HEMI 4speeds because of their unique bellhousings?

Mike, do you get the 9513 or 9523?

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/200_ft_-lb__starters.html

I've seen too many issues using the factory units behind the 2nd gen HEMI, they're even taxed behind mild street wedges,... seeing that you have the TTI's the clockable unit is the way to go...what HEMI block are you running?

Mike

Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 04:11 PM

Quote:

...

I've seen too many issues using the factory units behind the 2nd gen HEMI, they're even taxed behind mild street wedges,... seeing that you have the TTI's the clockable unit is the way to go...what HEMI block are you running?

Mike

I believe it is a Mopar Performance block. Because the rotating assembly is a 440, the torque converter was ordered to reflect that. So, the casting of the block "Starter ear" can be off compared to the original '69 440 I had in the car? This was the same tranny I used with the 440. The unit itself clears rather nicely with TTI headers, so I don't think there's an issue there. The main issue I can see thus far is the complete alignment of the teeth together and fully. I think that's where the "clockable" functionality comes into play for me if needed...

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 06:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

...

I've seen too many issues using the factory units behind the 2nd gen HEMI, they're even taxed behind mild street wedges,... seeing that you have the TTI's the clockable unit is the way to go...what HEMI block are you running?

Mike

I believe it is a Mopar Performance block. Because the rotating assembly is a 440, the torque converter was ordered to reflect that. So, the casting of the block "Starter ear" can be off compared to the original '69 440 I had in the car? This was the same tranny I used with the 440. The unit itself clears rather nicely with TTI headers, so I don't think there's an issue there. The main issue I can see thus far is the complete alignment of the teeth together and fully. I think that's where the "clockable" functionality comes into play for me if needed...

I've seen no issues with the old MP blocks other than the positive stud interference, World blocks on the other hand require some block massaging for starter clearance....I don't waste my time on the factory issued starters, Power Master units are the only ones that I run

Mike

Posted By: sogtx

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 06:58 PM

Do you have a shim installed ?

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 06:58 PM

Happens with some starter gets held on angle by block and it breaks. grind the block and or the starter right on the crease that touches the block. I have one on the shelf looks just like that had a freind have the same problem with a mega block. mine was a stock block you could see where it wore the paint off the block.

Posted By: sogtx

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 07:10 PM

My starter cracked twice til i shimmed it

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Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 08:38 PM

Quote:

My starter cracked twice til i shimmed it

My problem is the teeth of the starter, when engaged, doesn't mesh all the way with the ring gear. It's like a "finger-tip" engagement. The shim, if I understand, modifies the forward/aft positioning of the starter relative to the torque converter... ???

Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 08:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My starter cracked twice til i shimmed it

My problem is the teeth of the starter, when engaged, doesn't mesh all the way with the ring gear. It's like a "finger-tip" engagement. The shim, if I understand, modifies the forward/aft positioning of the starter relative to the torque converter... ???

shims can also be used for side to side adjustment.

Posted By: RSNOMO

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 09:15 PM

Quote:

I believe it is a Mopar Performance block. Because the rotating assembly is a 440, the torque converter was ordered to reflect that.

There's your issue...

A one-piece shim is only going to move the starter body out away from the flywheel...

If you know for certain that the alignment at the block is true, I'd next go for a measurement to see what kind of depth you need for proper engagement at the ring gear...

Might be tricky...

(Give Wes a call at Mancini Racing...

He's been around MP for a while...

Run yer issue by him and see if he's heard anything)...

Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/01/14 10:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I believe it is a Mopar Performance block. Because the rotating assembly is a 440, the torque converter was ordered to reflect that.

There's your issue...

A one-piece shim is only going to move the starter body out away from the flywheel...

If you know for certain that the alignment at the block is true, I'd next go for a measurement to see what kind of depth you need for proper engagement at the ring gear...

Might be tricky...

(Give Wes a call at Mancini Racing...

He's been around MP for a while...

Run yer issue by him and see if he's heard anything)...

OK, I'm trying to understand this..... When it comes to the relationship of the tranny, converter, starter, everything is 440.. No different than what I had before other than a block with hemi-heads on it.... I didn't figure the casting of the blocks in that area were any different from a 440 to a 426 Hemi block.. I'll call Powermaster and Mancini tomorrow or Wed..

Thanks everyone.......

Posted By: sogtx

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/02/14 12:52 AM

I think that the starter goes too far into the bell , cracks
Then u lose alignment and selenoid doesnt engage
Far enough .

Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/02/14 01:13 AM

Quote:

I think that the starter goes too far into the bell , cracks
Then u lose alignment and selenoid doesnt engage
Far enough .

hence the reason folks grind the nose down

Posted By: sogtx

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/02/14 03:44 AM

I wouldnt want to cut the snout - i think it may weaken
It . Maybe not. I guess 30 thou wont hurt but definitely
A shim helped me with mp block

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Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/02/14 06:06 AM

That's why I hate this new crap. I guess I better pull the bellhousing off and pull mine out the back so I can grind the little beauty. Glad I didn't lift the trans in today. I shoved mine in by hand and it went in nice but I don't like taking chances. First time I've used one of these silly little starters ever. I always use the best original old style I can find but I'm starting to run out of good ones.

Sheldon

Posted By: RSNOMO

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/02/14 09:49 AM

Quote:

First time I've used one of these silly little starters ever.

Only way to go unless yer goin' fer OEM gold...

I've run a mini w/heat shield for 20 years with no issues...

And that's captured around tubes de la Hookeare...

Like Mike mentioned, POS stud can be tight, but beyond that, I'd never go back to OEM...

Which wasn't gonna fly with the Hooker's anyway...

Posted By: therocks

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/02/14 08:37 PM

Ma never used a shim.that is basicaly a cover to keep crap out of the bell area.Ive run without them since the 60s and never had a problem.Most problems are caused by not having the starter seated correctly.Oh my mini in a 12.5 440 has been in for at least 15 years.Still cranks like a /6.Rocky

Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/02/14 09:37 PM

I am starting to think my new torque converter's ring gear total diameter isn't up to snuff........

Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/02/14 11:42 PM

Quote:

Ma never used a shim.that is basicaly a cover to keep crap out of the bell area.Ive run without them since the 60s and never had a problem.Most problems are caused by not having the starter seated correctly.Oh my mini in a 12.5 440 has been in for at least 15 years.Still cranks like a /6.Rocky

Rocky, I not advocating shims or grinding. just answering his questions. there is 'something' not straight or he's using the wrong mini-starter based on all I've read. I still use the good old fashion 200 lb pain in the rump stock one. why? cause I've got a lifetime warranty from National Auto from 25 years ago and someday, someday I will get to cash it in!

Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/03/14 05:41 AM

Well, I made a shim for mine and I think I can wiggle it out without taking off the bellhousing/ Of course the wrench is too long to make a turn between the Hooker header and the T-bar. Didn't want to cut one of my good home wrenches so I'll cut one of the wrenches down from work tomorrow. I'll look at the mini and see if I can grind some off of it to facilitate a socket. Hopefully if I go through all of this I'll never have to pull the lil devil ever again.

Sheldon

Posted By: jose jones

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/07/14 09:24 AM

I had a 2500 stall converter in a stroker RR, the teeth didn't engage very well the converter,It had bolts the same size as the crank bolts and as such the welded nuts were thicker on the converter, I took the converter back to Hughes in Phoenix, they welded the ring gear 1/4 of a inch forward towards the back of the engine,never had a problem with the starter again,not sure if this is your problem, but it solved mine

Posted By: sogtx

Re: mini-starter woes.. - 09/16/14 03:18 AM

So how did it go ?