Moparts

Problem with my axle berrings

Posted By: MidPenMopar

Problem with my axle berrings - 07/13/14 09:43 PM

Hey guys the roadrunner just ate up the "Green" berrings after only a few thousand miles.

I know when i had the REAR disc brake set up installed by a local shop the instructions called for replacing the factory taper berrings with the GREEN berrings for some reason??


Now that these green berrigns failed so quickly is it possible to go back to the stock Timkin berrings and not use the GREEN ones any more??

Thanks for help.

Stu
Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/13/14 09:49 PM

if you are running an set of aftermarket rear disc brake set up like strange..wilwood...the green bearing are necessary....
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/13/14 09:52 PM

Quote:

if you are running an set of aftermarket rear disc brake set up like strange..wilwood...the green bearing are necessary....



Ok, but why would they only last a few thousand miles???


I did some reading and they said they are for racing only and not to be used for a street car??

Could they just have been a bad set??


Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/13/14 09:55 PM

Hey Stu,
Not all kits require the "Green" bearings. Some kits such as ones available from DrDiff allow the use of the factory Timkens. Also, GREEN is a brand name. There are a few companies that make these non adjustable replacement bearings. I don't know if they all are just as unreliable, but I assume that they would be. They are a BALL bearing with only a fraction of the contact area of the tapered roller bearings from Timken.
My Charger is on the second failing set in 9000 miles. There are some Mopar guys that are totally in love with these POS bearings but I certainly am not one of them.
I prefer corners to drag racing and I have learned that they are terribly inadequate. I have the Dr Diff rear disc kit and plan to return to the stock type bearings soon.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/13/14 09:55 PM

The Dr. Diff rear disc brake setup I have in my 68 Valiant runs factory tapered bearings. You might want to give Cass a call.
Posted By: bobby66

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/13/14 09:55 PM

Did they remove the thrust block from the differential?
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/13/14 10:00 PM

Quote:

Did they remove the thrust block from the differential?



Dont know what that in unfortunately.


I bought the SSBC rear disc kit and for whatever reason they mandated the ball berring type and not the tapered type.

Would this be for some clearance issue on the axles maybe??
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/13/14 10:04 PM

I think it has to do with the axle endplay tends to change as the brake pads wear. The Dr Diff and a few other kits somehow have a way around that.
Posted By: bobby66

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/13/14 10:48 PM

If the thrust block is present it may put a load on the bearings, pushing out on them and leading to premature failure.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/13/14 10:52 PM

OK so with greens you do NOT want the thrust block in there?
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/13/14 10:58 PM

Quote:

If the thrust block is present it may put a load on the bearings, pushing out on them and leading to premature failure.



Well now this is interesting.

Maybe that is the case??
Posted By: buildanother

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/14/14 12:04 AM

Stu, I wiped a set of greens myself by leaving block in place. Not all block equipped rears have that interference though. I would ask the doc as suggested. In my case , I was able to grind almost 1/8" off of each axle, re-istall new greens and they then lived a happy life.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/14/14 12:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If the thrust block is present it may put a load on the bearings, pushing out on them and leading to premature failure.



Well now this is interesting.

Maybe that is the case??



More than likely the case , the only way around it is to cut your axles if you have a cone type sure grip because the only way to remove the thrust block from a cone type is to disassemble the sure grip.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/14/14 12:14 AM

Quote:

I bought the SSBC rear disc kit and for whatever reason they mandated the ball berring type and not the tapered type.

Would this be for some clearance issue on the axles maybe??



Rigid calipers don't like any axle end play, the rotors need to stay in the same relative in/out position that's why many brake kits require the Greens.

I still believe there's no reason why the factory taper bearings can't be adjusted for a little preload on the bearings instead of the mandated few thousands end play...tapered front wheel bearings tolerate preload, why not the rears?
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/14/14 12:27 AM

Thank you everyone for the help. I understand now why the tapered berrings needed to be changed.

I will take all your advice and suggestions and see if we cant get this rectified somehow.



Stu
Posted By: stumpy

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/14/14 12:50 AM

BEARINGS!!!
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/14/14 01:31 AM

Quote:

BEARINGS!!!



Sorry ......I stand corrected.... Bearings
Posted By: I_bleed_MOPAR

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/14/14 02:03 AM

Quote:



Rigid calipers don't like any axle end play, the rotors need to stay in the same relative in/out position that's why many brake kits require the Greens.

I still believe there's no reason why the factory taper bearings can't be adjusted for a little preload on the bearings instead of the mandated few thousands end play...tapered front wheel bearings tolerate preload, why not the rears?






Always wondered about this myself.

Quote:

BEARINGS!!!



I think stumpy needs a hug.


Tim
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/22/14 01:24 AM

Ok so as suggested a cause of the problem was when i had the rear disc brake conversion done the shop that did it left the crush washer in. This caused the problem of the bearings failing. Its all apart and getting fixed as i type.

Thanks for the advice!!
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/22/14 02:46 AM

Stu there are hundreds of thousands of Toyota pickup trucks out there with the same basic radial ball bearings as your "green" bearings and they live long tortured lives for over 100K.
The first question I ask when setting up a rear is what kind of axle bearings are you going to use? Rollers get the spacer and ball bearings do not.
I would really call the expert Cass (doctordiff) for your options on tapered roller bearings if you don't want to disassemble your differential. There may be a bearing retainer that you can shim like a Ford pickup uses to adjust the axle endplay.

Gus

Attached picture 8215762-rearviewsavoy.jpg
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/22/14 02:56 AM

Quote:

There may be a bearing retainer that you can shim like a Ford pickup uses to adjust the axle endplay.

Gus



My buddy who is doing the repair at his shop is going to use Ford roller bearings. And as now as the rear end is out i asked him to do a complete go through of all the other parts. I stopped by today and he showed me that the ring and pinion gears were fine but i also could use the bearings next to the sure grip replaced as well as they were showing some wear signs.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/22/14 03:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

There may be a bearing retainer that you can shim like a Ford pickup uses to adjust the axle endplay.

Gus



My buddy who is doing the repair at his shop is going to use Ford roller bearings. And as now as the rear end is out i asked him to do a complete go through of all the other parts. I stopped by today and he showed me that the ring and pinion gears were fine but i also could use the bearings next to the sure grip replaced as well as they were showing some wear signs.



You said it has a Crush washer ??? Do you mean thrust block ?

As far as the bearings needing to be replaced , they ALL need to be replaced and the reason is that POS cone type sure grip if that is what the car still has in it.

If he has the differential torn down have him put the solid spacer in place of the crush spacer on the pinion stem .
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings *DELETED* - 07/23/14 01:09 AM

Post deleted by MidPenMopar
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/23/14 02:11 AM



Yes John, you are right i meant the thrust block. I had the sure grip installed about 10 years ago and i do have the "cone" type.
Stu
Posted By: therocks

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/23/14 02:41 AM

Johm just hates cone types.Mine is the OE 69 and gets beat all the time.It still works perfect and no problems.Now if I ever replace it it will get the clutch type.Rocky
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/23/14 03:28 PM

Quote:

Johm just hates cone types.Mine is the OE 69 and gets beat all the time.It still works perfect and no problems.Now if I ever replace it it will get the clutch type.Rocky



I don't believe that you drive your car more than on and off a trailer
Posted By: bobby66

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/23/14 04:36 PM

Love a happy ending!
Posted By: therocks

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/23/14 06:09 PM

John at least I drive the thing.If you have anything that runs come on down in your ride and we will go crusing.Oh by the way it was a daily driver for at least 4 years after I installed it and that was in 71.Still going strong.That and for 35 bucks I cant complain as it was drum to drum.Rocky
Posted By: RSNOMO

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/23/14 07:39 PM

We've been down this road before...

I got 20 years+ on an Auburn...

And know of TONS of 'em in these parts that get pounded, and live...


I beat a 340 A-body until a rod started singing in the past...

The rear axle(through endless tire-smoke)did just fine...
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/24/14 12:37 AM

Almost all back together but one of the bolts in the yoke snapped off inside so it was just easier and quicker to just go by a new yoke. Hope to have it all back on the road in a few days.
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/26/14 02:32 AM

Quote:

Almost all back together but one of the bolts in the yoke snapped off inside so it was just easier and quicker to just go by a new yoke. Hope to have it all back on the road in a few days.



I take that back as the new pinion bearing went bad in the first few miles. So back apart again....

On a side note i did get an O2 sensor installed so the A / F mixture can be adjusted for optimum performance.

Attached picture 8219806-roadrunnerintheshopjuly2014010.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/26/14 09:54 AM

Ahhh... THE "Snowball" effect strikes again.
I hate that. So often I start out on one thing but three other issues pop up requiring additional attention.
Good luck my B body brother!
Posted By: therocks

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/26/14 04:21 PM

Stu IIRC you have a 489 case.Unless you replace the crush sleeve it might eat another bearing.Thats why the sell an eliminator for it.You can set up the old one but its a pain.Removing the yoke you have to get the crush sleeve almost perfect to where it was.Rocky
Posted By: Ramrod39

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/27/14 12:53 AM

Quote:

Stu IIRC you have a 489 case.Unless you replace the crush sleeve it might eat another bearing.Thats why the sell an eliminator for it.You can set up the old one but its a pain.Removing the yoke you have to get the crush sleeve almost perfect to where it was.Rocky



Rocky -

Tell me about the crush sleeve eliminator. I need to do a pinion seal on my 489 and have been putting it off because of the crush sleeve.
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/27/14 01:59 AM

Quote:

Stu IIRC you have a 489 case.Unless you replace the crush sleeve it might eat another bearing.Thats why the sell an eliminator for it.You can set up the old one but its a pain.Removing the yoke you have to get the crush sleeve almost perfect to where it was.Rocky



Rocky the the whole rear end came apart again and yes i got a new crush sleeve installed. Had the car back by 9:00PM last night and got to take it to a show today!

Attached picture 8220611-CarsinthePark2014019.JPG
Posted By: therocks

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/27/14 03:41 PM

RamRod the crush eliminator dumps the crush sleeve.Its almost like it but the eliminator you can change the yoke like other rears.The rear has to come apart to change it.Dr Diff sells the eliminator.You can change the yoke with a crush sleeve.There is a explanation in factory manual on how to do it.Been years since Ive read it though.Rocky
Posted By: bobby66

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/27/14 11:48 PM

What a nice car. Hope your troubles are over Did you notice improved braking with the 4-wheel disks?
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/28/14 12:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Stu IIRC you have a 489 case.Unless you replace the crush sleeve it might eat another bearing.Thats why the sell an eliminator for it.You can set up the old one but its a pain.Removing the yoke you have to get the crush sleeve almost perfect to where it was.Rocky



Rocky -

Tell me about the crush sleeve eliminator. I need to do a pinion seal on my 489 and have been putting it off because of the crush sleeve.



A crush sleeve is a one time use collapsible spacer that helps set the pinion bearings preload.
Once you disassemble it for a new anything, a new one must be used to achieve proper preload for the pinion bearings.

A solid pinion preload spacer can be used and is better, but it must be custom installed and turned down to the exact length needed for proper pre-load.
This all needs to be done/setup with custom milled/turned pinion bearings that have oversize IDs so they slip on and off the pinion to determine pinion pre load spacer thickness. Can't use pressed fit bearing races on the pinion until you can/determine find proper pre load thickness. I have done it several times. So using and installing one(solid spacer,crush sleeve eliminator, etc) is not easy to install.

For a stock rebuild I'd use a fresh crush sleeve.

Here's what one looks like.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/28/14 12:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Almost all back together but one of the bolts in the yoke snapped off inside so it was just easier and quicker to just go by a new yoke. Hope to have it all back on the road in a few days.



I take that back as the new pinion bearing went bad in the first few miles. So back apart again....

On a side note i did get an O2 sensor installed so the A / F mixture can be adjusted for optimum performance.



Stu what brand is your A/F ratio meter ? I bought the latest Innovate Motorsports MTX-L and the instruction say the sensor needs to be 24 inches behind the end of the collector to get an accurate reading .
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/28/14 12:41 AM

Quote:



Stu what brand is your A/F ratio meter ? I bought the latest Innovate Motorsports MTX-L and the instruction say the sensor needs to be 24 inches behind the end of the collector to get an accurate reading .



Yes the meter was run from the sensor up through the engine compartment and out the hood. Then into the interior where you can watch it as you drive.

Right now it was reading 13.00 to 13.55 when at freeway speeds but dropped to 11 to 12 at low speed. This will again need adjusting to help the low speed ratio.

Even not perfect the car ran 10 times better already! Keep in mind i also have a way to large cam profile that i am sure is hindering any low speed performance.
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/28/14 12:48 AM

Quote:



For a stock rebuild I'd use a fresh crush sleeve.

Here's what one looks like.





That one is not at all what mine looks like though??

Mine for the 8.75 is way longer and tapered like this.

Attached picture 8221474-ccrp_1006_05_+rear_end_assembly+lube_pinion.jpg
Posted By: Ramrod39

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/28/14 05:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Stu IIRC you have a 489 case.Unless you replace the crush sleeve it might eat another bearing.Thats why the sell an eliminator for it.You can set up the old one but its a pain.Removing the yoke you have to get the crush sleeve almost perfect to where it was.Rocky



Rocky -

Tell me about the crush sleeve eliminator. I need to do a pinion seal on my 489 and have been putting it off because of the crush sleeve.



A crush sleeve is a one time use collapsible spacer that helps set the pinion bearings preload.
Once you disassemble it for a new anything, a new one must be used to achieve proper preload for the pinion bearings.

A solid pinion preload spacer can be used and is better, but it must be custom installed and turned down to the exact length needed for proper pre-load.
This all needs to be done/setup with custom milled/turned pinion bearings that have oversize IDs so they slip on and off the pinion to determine pinion pre load spacer thickness. Can't use pressed fit bearing races on the pinion until you can/determine find proper pre load thickness. I have done it several times. So using and installing one(solid spacer,crush sleeve eliminator, etc) is not easy to install.

For a stock rebuild I'd use a fresh crush sleeve.





So if a guy just needed to replace a leaking pinion seal on a 489 and wanted to keep it simple, what would you recommend?
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/28/14 06:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:



Stu what brand is your A/F ratio meter ? I bought the latest Innovate Motorsports MTX-L and the instruction say the sensor needs to be 24 inches behind the end of the collector to get an accurate reading .



Yes the meter was run from the sensor up through the engine compartment and out the hood. Then into the interior where you can watch it as you drive.

Right now it was reading 13.00 to 13.55 when at freeway speeds but dropped to 11 to 12 at low speed. This will again need adjusting to help the low speed ratio.

Even not perfect the car ran 10 times better already! Keep in mind i also have a way to large cam profile that i am sure is hindering any low speed performance.



Sru I was talking about your sensor being mounted in the collector where it is , the directions should have told whomever installed that were to put it , the one I have the sensor needs to be mounted in the head pipe , not the header.
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Problem with my axle berrings - 07/28/14 02:02 PM

Quote:



Sru I was talking about your sensor being mounted in the collector where it is , the directions should have told whomever installed that were to put it , the one I have the sensor needs to be mounted in the head pipe , not the header.



Ok John, i misread your question. When i see see my friend again i will ask why he mounted it there and not further back on the exhaust system.
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