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440 Fluctuating Idle Speed

Posted By: Nimbus426

440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/09/14 03:38 AM

Hey guys, I have a '73 model 440 that suddenly wants to drop from around 1200 rpm to about 500 rpm while idling and then return back to 1200 and then drop again. If I put it in drive the rpm will drop all the way down to about 300. I tried putting new plugs and wires in. Now it just does it more rapidly. I used the Champion Copper Plus RJ12YC plugs that did seem a little shorter than the Autolites that I took out, but they were the recommended plugs from Auto Zone. I've never had this problem before. I put a light on the engine and got it adjusted where it sounds pretty smooth and then the rpm will just plummet. I thought maybe the fuel filter, but it is fairly new. I haven't tried cleaning the carb. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I'm still a rookie when it comes to engines just fair warning
Thanks!
Posted By: ademon

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/09/14 03:47 AM

What carb, where is the timing at?? I would up the initial timing then lower the idle screw for starters. Could be another problem like jumped timing chain? Need more info
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/09/14 04:53 AM

Take out the idle mixture screws (count the # of turns to easily return them to their orig position) and shoot a 3 second blast of starting fluid into each hole (need the thin red straw to get it in there good) then replace the screws. If that ain't it then I would go thru the carb
Posted By: Nimbus426

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/11/14 02:50 AM

Thanks for your replies. While the engine was running I pulled a spark plug wire and nothing happened. I pulled another one and nothing happened. Then I pulled one more and the RPMs dropped. So I now know that at least two of my plugs/wires aren't sparking. I tried putting a different plug in but it made no difference. So it's either the wires (which are brand new) or maybe the distributor cap (which is only a few months old). So confused..
Posted By: terzmo

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/11/14 03:03 AM

I'd spray the carb base with carb cleaner to see if it smoothes out...would show a leak
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/11/14 03:15 AM

Hook your timing light clamp to both of the offending plug wires (1 at a time) see if the light flashes. Next time I'd suggest grounding plug wires rather than pullling them off as electronics do not like open circuits & grounding/opening the circuit will disable it effectively the same (to check the RPM drop)
Posted By: loco340cuda

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/11/14 04:57 AM

Are you running vacuum advance on the distributor? If so, disconnect it and plug the carb side connection. Reset the idle speed and see if the fluctuating idle goes away.

Posted By: dynorad

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/11/14 07:03 PM

Never mind.I read the rest of the posts and changed my mind.
find the cause of the dead cylinders. Intermittant wire? You might try swapping wires/ or plugs to see if the problem follows the wire. Look inside the cap. Check for burned wire.
Posted By: loco340cuda

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/12/14 05:49 AM

Quote:

Are you running vacuum advance on the distributor? If so, disconnect it and plug the carb side connection. Reset the idle speed and see if the fluctuating idle goes away.






disregard the above, I missed your post where you mentioned cylinders not firing.
Posted By: HemiRick

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/12/14 05:55 AM

Clean the idle circuits as described above, one side of the carb is trying to have clogged idle circuit. Rebuild it if this doesnt work.
Posted By: Nimbus426

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/12/14 08:21 AM

Thank you all again for your comments. I think the carb is fine because I believe it is an electrical issue. At least two spark plugs are not firing. But I will probably give the carb a good clean anyway. It can't hurt anything.
I had my ignition coil tested and the primary winding was in good shape but the secondary was week so I purchased a new coil and installed it but the idle is still fluctuating. It will idle normal for a few seconds, then drop rpm for a few seconds. Normal, then drop. It's consistent. So I now have a new coil, new plugs, new wires, new distributor, and a new cap & rotor.
The car ran perfect before I took it to my buddy's shop to get some body work done. I drove it home which was a good 25 minute drive and it handled it fine until I pulled into the driveway and it stalled out on me. Hasn't ran the same since. I had been tinkering with the timing and the air/fuel mixture off and on for a couple of months but the fluctuating idle started happening just recently.
Thanks again for the help! I feel like I'm narrowing it down. It's only a matter of time before it hits the road again
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/12/14 02:54 PM

Can I persuade you to shoot some starting fluid in the idle mixture screw ports
Posted By: Nimbus426

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/12/14 09:49 PM

Quote:

Can I persuade you to shoot some starting fluid in the idle mixture screw ports




Yes I will give that a try. But here is an update on where the engine stands. I put on the new coil last night and it didn't seem to make any difference. This afternoon I gave it another start and it's firing on all cylinders so I put a light on it and got it running pretty smooth but the rpms still dropped a little far when I put it in gear, down to about 500-600rpm. I decided to go for a spin around the block to see how the engine responded. As I was pulling out of the driveway I feathered the gas petal and took my foot off and it kept giving gas while the rpms went up from about 1000 to about 1200. I had to keep my foot hard on the break to keep from running into something. It would give gas for about 3 seconds and then go back down. So now I guess it isn't a spark issue. It seems like the carb is giving too much fuel now.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/13/14 04:04 AM

Make sure the throttle cable and the carb throttle blades/linkage/fast idle linkage ain't sticking & if good there then I'd open the carb
Posted By: BSB67

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/13/14 06:00 AM

Sounds like a vacuum leak
Posted By: Nimbus426

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/13/14 08:55 AM

Quote:

Sounds like a vacuum leak




I'm pretty sure there is a vacuum leak somewhere. There is an airy noise coming from the engine but I can't determine where it's coming from. There were some open ports on the carb that I put caps on but there is still a noise that sounds like sucking air. I have a vacuum gauge but I don't know where to hook it up. There is a port coming out of the front of the engine next to the distributor that looks like it could be the spot to hook up the vacuum gauge but there are three ports coming off of it and they're all open. I'm not sure if those are supposed to be plugged up or not. Also the pcv valve is missing. How necessary is it to have one? Thanks again for all of the help!
Posted By: Nimbus426

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/13/14 09:21 AM

Here is a picture of the port I was mentioning above. Is this where I hook up the vacuum gauge? The gauge only has one line and there's three ports. And is this thing supposed to be plugged? Thanks

Attached picture 8206746-BeFunky_IMG_4075.jpg.jpg
Posted By: General 68

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/13/14 10:16 AM

Hi. Seems like you just found a huge vacuumn leak. All those ports is supposed to be plugged. Connect your vacuumn gauge to one of the ports. Remember to plug that port again when you are done. There should be no unplugged ports on your carburetaor or intake. Also check all hoses for any vacuumn leak. You can run it without pcv but your system might be set up for the controlled vacuumn leak the pcv provides. I am not 100% sure about this so hopefully someone else will shime in. Lars
Posted By: Nimbus426

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/13/14 09:45 PM

Thank you Lars. I will plug two of them up and hook up my vacuum gauge. That should make adjusting the mixture screws a lot easier. I'll be sure to plug it back up when I'm done. I will see about getting a pcv valve and see if that helps the performance any.
Posted By: General 68

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/13/14 10:55 PM

Good. But I looked at the picture again and have to ask if the ports tree in the picture is bolted into the water pump housing. A little hard to tell from the picture. There is no vacuum source in the wp housing so that would have been strange, if not someone used a blocked vacuum tree to blend off a port in the wp housing?? Do you have a picture showing more of the surrendings?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/14/14 02:00 AM

that is a temp based vac valve in the water pump. there are no vac lines to it so it ain't affecting what is going on plus with the RPM rising and falling I'd think a vac leak would pretty much be a constant except possibly one inside the carb & I ain't even sure that a (vac) leak inside the carb would vary that much. Keep us posted
Posted By: tobnHisglory

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/14/14 06:41 AM

RapidRobert is right, that is a ported vacuum switch. It opens up internally as it gets warm but vacuum is supplied from a hose to the switch. It has no internal vacuum of its own.
You really need to sort out if this is carb or electrical related. Since you have replaced the rest of the electrical system, try taking your Ignition module in to AutoZone and having it tested. Make them test it several times until it gets hot to see if it starts to weaken.
Try spraying some starting fluid in the usual places to check for leaks - around the carb, vacuum hoses, and intake ports. Also, I've had vacuum leaks in the power brake booster do weird things at idle. Try temporarily plugging that hose/port.
Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/14/14 02:36 PM

Quote:

try taking your Ignition module in to AutoZone and having it tested.



........

Really. That cracks me up....
Posted By: tobnHisglory

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/14/14 11:32 PM

It all depends on who you get Commando. I worked there as a manager for several years and if someone actually knows how to use the equipment, it can be a helpful place to start. I seriously doubt that is the problem on this motor but it can't hurt to check it out.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/15/14 12:42 AM

Quote:

... plus with the RPM rising and falling I'd think a vac leak would pretty much be a constant...




Vacuum leaks external to the carb can cause the engine rpm to wander at idle.
Posted By: Nimbus426

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/18/14 02:20 AM

Vacuum leaks external to the carb can cause the engine rpm to wander at idle.




Do you mean if the carb has a vacuum leak it can cause the rpms to wander? I think I might have one coming from the carb somewhere. There is a pretty loud air noise coming from the engine.
Posted By: Nimbus426

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/19/14 10:22 PM

I messed with the timing a bit today and got the engine idling nicely in park and in drive. The engine idles now at around 6-7k rpm in gear. I went to take it for a drive but the car is still accelerating on it's own, especially in reverse. If I just barely tap the gas pedal it'll take off and keep accelerating for several seconds. It seems like the carb is getting too much fuel. Any suggestions? Thanks
Posted By: 68CoronetRT

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/19/14 11:26 PM

I assume you meant 600-700 rpm for the idle speed.
I think your problem is carburetor related. Tell us what you have and how it is set up.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/19/14 11:51 PM

Quote:

but the car is still accelerating on it's own, especially in reverse. If I just barely tap the gas pedal it'll take off and keep accelerating for several seconds. Any suggestions? Thanks


either the throttle cable/gas pedal/carb linkage/carb throttle shaft/butterflies on the throttle shaft are hanging up. EDIT I'm assuming you have a reasonably stout return spring
Posted By: Nimbus426

Re: 440 Fluctuating Idle Speed - 07/20/14 12:52 AM

Yes sorry 600-700 RPM. It is a Holley 600 4bbl on a '73 440. I will check those things out. I'm pretty sure I can eliminate the gas pedal and throttle linkage. I'm pretty sure it is a carb issue.
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