I may have messed up...Help!.. IT'S ALIVE!!!!!

Posted By: Stanton

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 05:22 PM

Did you pump the lifters full before starting the motor? Did you check the valve lash at any point - you should have no clearance and some preload with hydraulic lifters.

You've changed the heads, cam and lifters and head gaskets so more than likely measurements have changed and now the pushrods are too short.

I don't see an issue using stock rockers in a mild build.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 05:23 PM

Reference using 273 rockers with a hydraulic cam.

You just have to adjust them correctly. The T/A engine used adjsutables with hydraulic cams.

Posted By: Michael Ecks

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 05:23 PM

What kind of pistons did you use? Did you measure piston to valve clearances to make sure you are having contact there?

If the edelbrock heads are the magnum replacement part number you may have pushrods binding in the tunnels as the roller cam A engines have different pushrod geometry due to the taller lifter.

Did you fill the lifters before installing them? I've done it both ways and seen it recommend both ways. Rhoads and some others recommend submerging the lifters in oil and working the plunger in the bore with a pushrod until bubbles stop coming out. I've seen others recommend installing them dry for less initial pressure on the cam lobes. They take longer than you might expect to pump up from bone dry and sound like hell until they do.

good luck, let us know how it turns out.

Posted By: Stanton

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 05:25 PM

Quote:

How do I figure out what length pushrod I need? is there a measurement procedure?

Yes. It usually involves buying an adjustable pushrod made for that purpose (buying two makes it easier). Most cam manufacturers sell them. They come in various lengths and end configurations.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 05:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

How do I figure out what length pushrod I need? is there a measurement procedure?

Yes. It usually involves buying an adjustable pushrod made for that purpose (buying two makes it easier). Most cam manufacturers sell them. They come in various lengths and end configurations.

Good deal...I will see if I can get some. I will have to research the procedure to determine proper length. Hopefully it will be a fairly simple process

Yes I did pump the lifters and pre lube them. The heads are 340 specific heads and not magnum heads. Speedpro forged pistons with valve reliefs (2). I don't think there any valve piston issue. The noise seemed to be coming directly from the rocker area. It became pronounced when I removed the oil filler cap. I suspect the pushrod length is incorrect. Thankfully I didn't find any metal in the motor.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 05:38 PM

I think your gonna come out of this OK. First find the preload and check the geometry & post what you find. I dont think you generated more than the normal amount of shavings that happens during breakin just from the lifters clattering. Might just need a pushrod change. When the time comes cut 2 strips of paper for a ruler & turn the crank till the timing mark is 2&17/32" (40 deg) past TDC on #1 compression & spin the drill to preoil/confirm oiling to the pass side then turn the crank a bit further clockwise to 5" (79 deg) BTDC #6 compression & preoil/confirm oiling to the dr side. continue turning the crank a bit clockwise till it is at 15 BTDC for a wild cam or 10 BTDC for a mild cam & time the dist to the #6 plug wire if the dist has been removed for this. Read "breakin secrets" at www.mototuneusa.com

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 05:41 PM

Quote:

Reference using 273 rockers with a hydraulic cam.

You just have to adjust them correctly. The T/A engine used adjsutables with hydraulic cams.

They did not use 273 pushrods did they?

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 05:43 PM

Not sure on that one, I did build a 273 a few yuears ago with a hydraulic and I used the original push rods and rockers.

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 05:49 PM

i would guess switching to to 273 rockers could handle as much as .050 difference in push rod length.

Posted By: buildanother

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 06:50 PM

If you're taking covers back off, take a look inside them too for any funky marking. Especially aftermarket ones.

Posted By: skicker

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 07:18 PM

Quote:

I think your gonna come out of this OK. First find the preload and check the geometry & post what you find. I dont think you generated more than the normal amount of shavings that happens during breakin just from the lifters clattering. Might just need a pushrod change. When the time comes cut 2 strips of paper for a ruler & turn the crank till the timing mark is 2&17/32" (40 deg) past TDC on #1 compression & spin the drill to preoil/confirm oiling to the pass side then turn the crank a bit further clockwise to 5" (79 deg) BTDC #6 compression & preoil/confirm oiling to the dr side. continue turning the crank a bit clockwise till it is at 15 BTDC for a wild cam or 10 BTDC for a mild cam & time the dist to the #6 plug wire if the dist has been removed for this. Read "breakin secrets" at www.mototuneusa.com

Are the rockers, push rods and top of the head covered with oil? I would want to rotate the crank while running a drill and make sure everything is getting oil prior to restarting for any reason. With that amount or run time you should have oil everywhere. I used stock 273 rockers on the Eddy heads with 0 problems but mine was in a solid lifter application.

Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 08:23 PM

I may have missed some posts but I didn't see any reference to having the rocker shaft on correctly. If it not installed correctly you will have lots of rocker noise. Make sure that the notches on the shaft is down and toward the front on the drivers side and down and to the rear on the passenger side of the engine. If this is not followed there will be a lack of oil to the top end. It is also possible that all the lifters did not pump up and that shutting the engine back down and restarting will allow them to purge air out of them and to pump up.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 08:25 PM

OP, how did you set the adjustment preload on the lifters? I'm almost positive that none of the 273 motors came with hydraulic lifters stock, so that means the pushrods you used are for solid lifters, not hydraulics

There to long probally

All of the OEM hydraulic lifters, both early and late, have a different cup hieght, higher, than the same year solid liftrs cup hieght so the push rods your using are probally to long collapsing the hydraulic lifters

The 340 T/A, AAR Cuda motors had a special set of pushrods to make them work with hydraulic lifters, not the same lengths as the 273 solid lifter pushrods

Let us know what you find out

Posted By: elmor353

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 08:48 PM

68 and 69 273's came with hydraulic lifters, just like the 318.

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/16/14 09:27 PM

Ive used adjustable rockers on hydaulic valvetrain many times, just fine. They should be okay for use with any cam, if adjusted properly. As stated above, first thing that came to mind when I read the OP was "The rocker shafts are in backwards". Have you checked that yet?

Posted By: mopar_man

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 12:25 AM

Hope you never used a one oil hole head gasket and then installed it backwards if that's possible. I believe oil for the heads comes from cam bearings through a gallery in the block , through the head gasket into the head and into the rocker back bone . I believe the oil comes up through the second from front dr. side rocker boss and the second from the back on the pass side . Its been 25 yrs since I built a 340 so I could be all messed up It seems to me its either head gaskets on wrong or rocker back bone on up side down .

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 12:26 AM

All of the rockers are oriented correctly. Already checked that. I primed the oil pump and turned the crank to make sure oil was flowing to both sides through all the passages.

One thing I did notice this morning. The oil is thick, really thick almost like honey. Like to never got it to filter through the coffee filter. I noticed when I primed the pump before installing the motor that the oil was thick and kind of milky then but figured it was because of the cold temperatures. It was about 35 degrees this morning when I drained the oil and it was still just as thick. It might just be normal for the Rotella. I have never used it for break in before but read it is good. I also used Lucas break in additive. I am starting to wonder if a lighter oil with some break in additive might solve the problem. Would 10W-30 ( something other than Rotella) be too thin? I might give it a try tomorrow. Let it run a few minutes and see if it helps. Any reason this might be a bad idea?

Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 12:38 AM

"milky"?? as in color?

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 12:42 AM

Quote:

"milky"?? as in color?

Yep, that was before the motor was ever turned. It was cold back when I primed everything. I had my heater on in the garage but it was still pretty cold. I figured to was because of the cold.

Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 12:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

"milky"?? as in color?

Yep, that was before the motor was ever turned. It was cold back when I primed everything. I had my heater on in the garage but it was still pretty cold. I figured to was because of the cold.

if your oil is milky colored then you've got a coolant leak.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 12:49 AM

The oil still had the same milky color to it this morning when I drained it. My initial thought was it's metal in the oil but I found no metal. I checked thoroughly with a very bright light. It's milky...That's the best way to describe it. I had a motor spin a rod bearing once many years ago. I know what metal in the oil looks like. This isn't metal. The oil is really thick and weird colored. It's brown and milkish.... I don't know any other way to explain it.

Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 12:51 AM

You have water in the oil.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 12:57 AM

I think from all the stuff I have read and all the input I have received its either the pushrod length is off or the oil was too darn thick. I'm going to check the pushrod length first. If that is OK I will add lighter weight oil with some additive for good measure and try again. If it still has noir atet a couple minutes i will shut it down and go back tot he drawing board.

Posted By: jpm1916

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 01:30 AM

Do you have the oil plug installed in the valley by the distributor? Forgot one once
Didnt let the lifters pump up on that side.

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 02:08 AM

Quote:

All of the rockers are oriented correctly. Already checked that. I primed the oil pump and turned the crank to make sure oil was flowing to both sides through all the passages.

Did you actually see oil coming out of the rockers? You say "rockers are oriented correctly". perhaps its just the way you're saying it, but you do realize that we're asking about the rocker SHAFTS, Not the rockers themselves, right?? The rockers can be on correctly, but if the shafts are installed on the wrong sides, you'll get no oil to the rockers.

It sounds like you've got something in the oil that isn't supposed to be there, though. I'd drain out the oil and re-fill with some good break-in oil then try again. Good luck!

Posted By: zrxkawboy

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 02:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

"milky"?? as in color?

Yep, that was before the motor was ever turned. It was cold back when I primed everything. I had my heater on in the garage but it was still pretty cold. I figured to was because of the cold.

Condensation then, maybe?

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 02:15 AM

Quote:

Any reason this might be a bad idea?

I'd check preload before I did anything. rocker arm geometry/wipe pattern would be a good idea also. get a junk hyd lifters or 2 & lock it solid to make a checking lifter out of it. I like to lock the cup .030" below the snap ring to simulate actual conditions, picky but I'm anal

Posted By: Twostick

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 02:52 AM

I've never used a break in additive. Any chance it has colored your oil? Rotella alone should be OK.

Could be condensation depending on how many times your shop went from freezing to toasty warm if in fact your shop doesn't have full time heat. If you have anti freeze in the engine the easy test is just get a touch of oil on your finger and taste it.

You said some of the rockers were tight for side clearance. Not sure about SB rockers but BB has different offset for intake and exhaust.

Check all your pushrods for interference with the heads. If they are hitting they will be shiny where they hit.

Kevin

Posted By: mopar_man

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 03:38 AM

The intake and exhaust rockers are different. if you didn't know they were different and had them off the back bone , you could have easily installed them incorrectly, but that would still not give you oil starve.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 01:34 PM

The shafts and rockers are installed correctly. I have triple checked at this point. Oil pressure is good and flows to all the rockers. I think the milky color to the oil is condensation. We've had an abnormally cold winter. My garage is unheated until I go in to work in it. Then I crank up two torpedo heaters.

Here's what I did last night:

1. Checked preload. I checked two pushrods with the rocker all the way down then took the rockers off and measured the distance the rod came up. It's difficult to scribe 100% accurately. One was .07 and the other .062. The variance could be human error. I will try it again tonigh to make sure. I really don't think I was on the money with the measurements. One thing I did notice. When I took the rockers off not all the pushrods were sitting at the same height. 2 were a little lower. They weren't bent and all are same length. I figure that's because of the cam love they are sitting on. Correct?

2. I put some 10w-30 in to see if it would make a difference. It might have helped a very small amount but I still have valve train noise. I shut it down after 3 or 4 minutes. If my numbers are right it looks like I need shorter pushrods. Unless I'm missing something.

Thanks for all the advice. Keep it coming if I'm headed the wrong direction.

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 03:17 PM

did you check to see if the rockers are hitting the valve cover? it was mentioned earlier..
you said you think you need shorter pushrods,how did you come to that conclusion?

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 04:13 PM

Nothing is hitting the valve covers... The preload should be between 20 and 40 from what I have read. Mine is 70 but I need to check more thoroughly to confirm. I know it's not oil viscosity, it's not rocker orientation or shaft orientation, it's not a lubrication to the rockers issue and it isn't anything hitting the valve covers. There's no metal in the oil.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 05:10 PM

Noise indicates too short of push rod to me, since you haven't wiped the cam yet.

Unless you measure each push rod for each valve and order according, I think adjustable rockers would be better to spend money on than new push rods. Plus stock rockers are prone to failure after 45 years.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 05:22 PM

I spoke with lunati tech support. He said .025 shorter pushrods but said mine were close and may not be an issue. He said the voodoo cams sometimes cause a bit of valve train noise and suggested I do a full breakin and run it to give everything time to get settled. What do you guys think? Does this sound right? Plus, If I need to go .025 shorter any idea where I get them? Part numbers would be greatly appreciated....

Posted By: Twostick

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 06:16 PM

Typical tech support. He has no idea what your deck height is or what cylinder head you have or if it has been milled but he knows your push rod length is OK...

Kevin

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 06:36 PM

i would try shaft shims before new push rods.. IMO too long will not cause noise...

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 07:45 PM

Quote:

i would try shaft shims before new push rods.. IMO too long will not cause noise...

That makes sense. What do you use for shims? Is this something made specifically for this purpose? I'm imagining a washer.

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 07:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i would try shaft shims before new push rods.. IMO too long will not cause noise...

That makes sense. What do you use for shims? Is this something made specifically for this purpose? I'm imagining a washer.

they make kits, i got one from mancini years ago..

Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 08:44 PM

As stated above if you used push rods from the 273 they will bottom out the plunger in the lifter. They are way too long to be used with hydraulic lifters. Are you making sure to set the preload when the lifter is on the base circle of the cam. Ant at the point just where all free travel between the rocker, valve tip, push rod and cam are taken up. base circle

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/17/14 08:48 PM

First find the exact preload. With any particular cyls' lobes on base circle lay one of those 6" thin steel metal rulers, the ones with the clip to go in your shirt pocket across the valve cover rails & wipe the edge of it with a magic marker then before it dries quickly slide it over till it touches a pushrod & makes a thin magic marker ink mark on it. Then loosen the shaft holddown bolts till the pushrod is up all the way but not loose enough to where it is falling sideways (in the same plane in other words) & make another new mark then take the shaft/holddowns/pushrod all the way out & with that steel scale measure the distance between the two marks for your preload. Those shims will change the wipe pattern in addition to the pushrod length needed. You need .020" - .030" preload and an acceptable wipe pattern (as close to the center as possible/not going off the edge). mancini & others have those metal shims, just me I think they're hokey & I prefer soft copper or alum washers. For the cause of the noise you might have inadequate preload or one or more of the lifters might be defective

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/18/14 01:46 AM

I followed the advice of the Lunati rep...reluctantly...Changed the oil again, put in more break in lube and went through the whole 30 minute break in. No issues, no temperature problems, oil pressure good. It lost a bunch of the valve noise but it still has some. Probably 30% of where it was originally. No metal in the oil either...

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/19/14 12:42 AM

I have been reading everything I can on the 340 valve train and just read that the 340 rockers were different than the 318 rockers. Apparently they have a relief area for bigger valve springs. I didn't realize they were different. I used a set of 318 rockers! Haven't been able to go out and confirm this is my problem but can anyone confirm if this is truly the case? Were the rockers different? Could this be the cause of my noise?

Posted By: johnmilner

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/19/14 12:50 AM

the oil holes on the rocker shafts or offset from the bolt holes, oil holes down and to the outside.

Posted By: dogdays

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/19/14 01:07 AM

I don't remember any 340-specific stamped steel rockers, sounds like bunk to me.

Anyway, PLENTY of Mopar 318s have been built with camshafts similar to yours in terms of lift, using stock 318 rocker arms. Look at the bottom of your rockers to see if they are conttacting the spring or retainer. I bet they aren't. If no contact, rockers are not the problem.

You did say something that could have a bearing on the situation: Voodoo camshaft.

Comp Cams' HE line and Lunati's Voodoo cams have very aggressive ramps on the lobes. This puts higher stress on the valvetrain, which could cause more noise than a stock-type cam. The CompXE line is especially known for this, but the Voodoo is similar in design and that COULD be the increase in noise that you're getting.

I think you're worrying about nothing. If the lifter has 0.150 travel and you're using about half as preload, I don't see that reducing the preload would lessen noise appreciably. It may put the rocker in a wrong place on the valve tip, you can check for that.

If you want to buy shorter pushrods, first you find out how long yours are and then search out a shelf stock pushrod the right length, or have Smith Brothers or Manton custom build you some. Not impossibly expensive. Or send them a pushrod and say build one 0.025" shorter. But I think the lifters are more forgiving than that.

Have you checked the pushrod sides for contact marks with the intake ports?

R.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/19/14 01:22 AM

I was surprised to read the shafts might be different. I have read some additional and I think you are right, it's bunk. Maybe someone has taken a grinder to the rocker to gain clearance for larger springs is what they appeared to be.

When I talked to the Lunati rep he mentioned that the can is known to cause some valve train noise due tot he grind. Maybe I am worried for no reason. I will pull the valve cover tomorrow when I have time and double check the rocker to retainer, valve tip and look for rubbing. I will also check the preload more accurately with a good straightedge. If all looks good I am going to stop worrying and drive it. I definitely feel better knowing I have no metal in the oil.

Thanks for the great advice and input!

Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/19/14 10:47 PM

Quote:

When I talked to the Lunati rep he mentioned that the can is known to cause some valve train noise due tot he grind.

i don't believe this at all. this is a hydraulic cam and lifters not solid. are your lifters new, i've forgotten....

Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/19/14 10:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

When I talked to the Lunati rep he mentioned that the can is known to cause some valve train noise due tot he grind.

i don't believe this at all. this is a hydraulic cam and lifters not solid. are your lifters new, i've forgotten....

Yes Lunati hydraulic cams are known to have valve noise due to design.
Rocker shafts are the same from side to side but the notches on the ends of the shafts are down and forward on the drivers side and down to the rear on the rt.(passenger) side. Just like picking the rocker shaft and rockers off the drivers side and holding it and walking around and setting it down on the pass side without changing any position of it in your hands.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/20/14 01:54 AM

Lifters are new... The shafts are on correctly...The ticking isn't horrible but there is some valve train noise. it doesn't sound like the motor is coming apart or anything. Maybe I am too OCD about noises in the motor. I have never used aluminum heads before. I'm just a bit paranoid that something is going to go wrong. I can tell you the 318 it replaced never ticked. I had planned on going out and working on it tonight but I got home late and can't. Probably be Friday night before I can dig deeper into it.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/20/14 02:09 AM

It doesn't sound like OCD at all but something that is bothersome. There's been posts on some brands of new lifters that are too noisy which I dont find acceptable. I would check your preload tho and I would press down vertical on each rocker arm on the pushrod end with a wooden hammer handle while idling & see if any of em make the noise get quieter which would indicate a defective lifter

Posted By: OldMoparMan

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/20/14 02:10 AM

If you have a way of taking a short video clip of it running and posting it on a site it might be a big help by letting others hear the what you have going on.
Just my

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/20/14 02:31 AM

Quote:

If you have a way of taking a short video clip of it running and posting it on a site it might be a big help by letting others hear the what you have going on.
Just my

I will friday when I get home from work. Won't have another opportunity until then.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 02:32 AM

Ok... So I have been working on the motor all evening. The preload is actually about 40 and my rockers are hitting straight on the valve and no contact with the keepers. After checking everything I could think of I decided to run it a bit wight he valve covers off. I noticed no significant noise coming from the driver side. It seemed to be coning from the passenger side toward the back. I tried a banner handle on the rocker and noticed an ever so slight change on the second to the rear rocker. When I shut the motor off that particular rocker was all the way up wight he pushrod extended. The pushrod was so loose you could rattle it around. I disconnected the coil wire and bumped the motor around little by little to check the other pushrods. None of them came close to ever getting as loose as that one. all maintained at least a slight bit of tension even when fully up. I assume this means I have a collapsed lifter. This sucks because I just built this motor and I really don't want to pull the intake. I will probably go ahead and invest in some roller rockers. If i have to take everything apart I might as well.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 02:45 AM

I forgot what eng? You might be able to fish the lifter up with the long handled tool that grabs it

Posted By: 82ramIndy493

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 04:07 AM

Are you sure your rocker shafts are not upside down? If so the oil will bleed off outside the rockers and they will run dry and keep lots of noise.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 04:16 AM

Rocker shafts are good....

Posted By: OldMoparMan

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 02:12 PM

If you think it's one rocker only you will need to do a complete check of the components. First pull the shafts and check the 4 valves on that side with a dial indicator you can use a sharp point in the end of the push rod and line the dial shaft straight up this will check the lift on the cam. Next measure and check straightness of the push rods.

If the push rod is bent replace it and try again.
If the lift is off you can lay a flat plate on the shaft locations and measure to the center of the lifter to see if it' not pumped up.

Hopefully it's one of those two buy if it's not you will have to get the lifter out and measure the lift of the cam to see if the lobe is damaged.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 02:48 PM

Quote:

If you think it's one rocker only you will need to do a complete check of the components. First pull the shafts and check the 4 valves on that side with a dial indicator you can use a sharp point in the end of the push rod and line the dial shaft straight up this will check the lift on the cam. Next measure and check straightness of the push rods.

If the push rod is bent replace it and try again.
If the lift is off you can lay a flat plate on the shaft locations and measure to the center of the lifter to see if it' not pumped up.

Hopefully it's one of those two buy if it's not you will have to get the lifter out and measure the lift of the cam to see if the lobe is damaged.

Sounds like a wiped lope to me, hopefully not.

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 03:25 PM

Quote:

Ok... So I have been working on the motor all evening. The preload is actually about 40 and my rockers are hitting straight on the valve and no contact with the keepers. After checking everything I could think of I decided to run it a bit wight he valve covers off. I noticed no significant noise coming from the driver side. It seemed to be coning from the passenger side toward the back. I tried a banner handle on the rocker and noticed an ever so slight change on the second to the rear rocker. When I shut the motor off that particular rocker was all the way up wight he pushrod extended. The pushrod was so loose you could rattle it around. I disconnected the coil wire and bumped the motor around little by little to check the other pushrods. None of them came close to ever getting as loose as that one. all maintained at least a slight bit of tension even when fully up. I assume this means I have a collapsed lifter. This sucks because I just built this motor and I really don't want to pull the intake. I will probably go ahead and invest in some roller rockers. If i have to take everything apart I might as well.

You said earlier that you filled the lifters with oil before initial fire up. You really should not do that. Because if you tighten the rocker shaft down too quickly and do not allow the lifter to bleed off you can bend a pushrod. BTDT.

I would pull that pushrod and roll it on a piece of glass, you'll see the wobble if it is bent. BEst way to fill a lifter is to assembly the valve train with the lift unfilled, then when preoiling the system it will fill up all by itself. Sometimes, like once the engine has been running, you do not have that option, then you have to slowly bolt down the rocker assembly to prevent this from being a possibility.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 04:13 PM

I have a 318 that has less than 500 miles on it. I took the rockers and pushrods out of it and tried them in the 340 with the same results. I wanted to make sure it wasn't a pushrod or rocker. The same pushrod is loose. I marked all the pushrods with a sharpie and ran the motor briefly to confirm the lifters are spinning and they are all spinning about the same speed, including the one that has the loose pushrod....

Now, this is something I need to check on... Yesterday as I was doing my testing I had removed the passenger side valve cover and reinstalled it. As I was reinstalling it something lying n the intake manifold fell into the head. I immediately took the valve cover off and started looking for it. I stuck my finger into a puddle of oil in the head and felt a small disc and pulled it out. It looked almost like a watch battery. I figured it was something that fell onto the intake while I was installing the motor. I looked a little more to make sure there wasn't anything else and I found a washer. The washer was what I though fell into the head in the first place. It came off one of the bolts I used to lift the motor assembly with my cherry picker. I didn't give it much thought last night but the more I think about it I am afraid the disc was the tip of the valve. I'm going to go out in a bit and check. If that's the case, what can cause the valve tip to come off? I bough the heads used but they had little use and I and the machine shop check them over. I guess a broken valve tip would be better than a wiped cam...Not much but a little.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 04:39 PM

Ding ding ding...We have a winner...er..loser! I just removed the rockers and it's the tip of the valve. I have attached a picture. I guess i'm lucky it didn't drop the valve. Looks like the head is coming off and roller rockers are going in after a new valve. Any idea what might have caused this? I don't wan't to do anything until I figure out what caused it. I don't want it to happen again.

Attached picture 8084010-valvesmall.JPG

Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 04:42 PM

The disc may be part of a lifter. Take a magnet and look for a clip and a pushrod cup too.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 04:49 PM

The disc was the tip of the valve. Fortunately the piece broke off and the keeper clips stayed on. I have no idea what might have caused this. Maybe it was something pre existing from the previous owner of the heads? Too much preload? I don't wan't to do anything until I have an idea what caused it. I have a fresh set of smog J heads with new valves and springs that I am tempted to swap out for the aluminum heads. This is frustrating!

Posted By: zrxkawboy

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 05:17 PM

Congrats on finding the problem! Like you said, good thing it didn't drop the valve.

Posted By: TJP

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 07:22 PM

Quote:

I have been reading everything I can on the 340 valve train and just read that the 340 rockers were different than the 318 rockers. Apparently they have a relief area for bigger valve springs. I didn't realize they were different. I used a set of 318 rockers! Haven't been able to go out and confirm this is my problem but can anyone confirm if this is truly the case? Were the rockers different? Could this be the cause of my noise?

When the 340's came out in 68 they used 318 rockers with larger diameter springs and retainers. They DEFINITELY had interference issues. The problem was corrected sometime early to mid 69. They corrected it by grinding a relief on the backside of the rocker during manufacturing. I believe all the rockers from that point forward
(318/340/360) all had the relief in them. If one is using a set of early rockers it would be best to swap them out or at least check them. This issue can also be present when using 273 rockers.
Congrats on finding the issue, that could have been disastrous. As to the cause I'm going to bet on a manufacturing defect

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 07:33 PM

The more I read the more I think my stock rockers will work fine. I think the valve tip was the issue from the start. I had the same noise from the very first start up. I have checked all the other valve tips and they seem good. I did go back and read the Edelbrock instructions and they say the stock pushrod is 7.35... I thought stock pushrods are 7.5? This could definitely have cause excessive preload if they are supposed to be the 7.35. Might have contributed to the tip popping off if it was already ready to go? I am going to get another valve and see what happens. Anyone know what brand of valves they put in the Eddies? I want to make sure the new valve fits properly.

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 07:49 PM

Quote:

The more I read the more I think my stock rockers will work fine. I think the valve tip was the issue from the start. I had the same noise from the very first start up. I have checked all the other valve tips and they seem good. I did go back and read the Edelbrock instructions and they say the stock pushrod is 7.35... I thought stock pushrods are 7.5? This could definitely have cause excessive preload if they are supposed to be the 7.35. Might have contributed to the tip popping off if it was already ready to go? I am going to get another valve and see what happens. Anyone know what brand of valves they put in the Eddies? I want to make sure the new valve fits properly.

7.50 - 7.35 = 0.150", not sure any lifter has room for that much preload.

Looking at rock auto, stock hydraulic pushrods are listed as 7.500", pushrods for adjustable rockers and hydraulic lifters are 7.2700".

Stock 273 mechanical pushrods are 7.6580", which is 0.388" too long and for those who claim it'll work with hydraulic lifters, you are wrong.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! DELETED - 03/22/14 08:15 PM

Post deleted by Telvis

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 08:18 PM

Here's the instruction sheet with the pushrod specifications.

I think I may have mis-read it. They specify an adjustable rocker arm must be used with the pushrod length of 7.375. I have found two different instruction sheets for these heads. One says the stiock rockers are OK and the other says the adjustable must be used. I'm going to go adjustable to eliminate any future problems. Fix it all now and hopefully I will be good. I have never dealt with anything other than the stock stamped rockers. Im a bit iffy on what rockers and lifter combination to use. I know I will determine push rod length after the rockers are installed. I know the 273's are inexpensive but what lifter to use with them? One person says Hydraulic are good and someone else says they aren't. I don't want to spend money on something I don't really need. Rockers, lifters and pushrods are expensive. I wan't to do it right the first time...Unlike my current situation...

Attached File

8084256-60179.pdf (92 downloads)

Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 09:29 PM

Use the 273 rockers with push rods (cup and ball) for Hydraulic lifters and adjustable rockers.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 09:47 PM

So, what length pushrods with the 273 rockers? 7.2xx...I can't remember the rest of the numbers but are those the ones I need? Should I just wait and order custom pushrods after I get the rockers? Stick with the stock Hydraulic lifters?

Posted By: TJP

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 10:13 PM

I would not advise using the 273 rockers due to the aforementioned spring /retainer interference issues. We have also experienced them bending with high spring pressures.
A good set of aftermarket reputably produced adjustable rockers and shafts is what I would recommend. The adjusters should be the type that use a locknut as opposed to a pinch bolt. Roller tips are optional. The rocker arm does not care if it is a hydraulic or solid lifter. The pushrod length does. hope this all makes sense

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 10:31 PM

I found this in my notes from way back if I wrote it down correct. hyd ball/ball-7.51" (stock 318/360 I'm assuming). adj hyd cup/ball (TA?)-7.23". solid ball/cup (273 I'm assuming) 7.340". Assuming your preload is acceptable from what I gather it is then there is only a problem with the one lifter (or pushrod) & not likely that that one pushrod is way shorter than the rest of em so I'd pull that lifter & open it up and eyeball that lobe to find where all that clearance is coming from then go from there. If ordering correct length pushrods you'd install a pair of rockers & use an adjustable checking pushrod to find the exact length needed to be ordered but I think the problem is confined to that one lifter/pushrod/lobe & that new rockers ain't needed. iirc this is a mild hyd cam

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 10:34 PM

I found the issue. It was a broken valve tip...Not sure what caused it...I'm now trying to determine what I want to do from this point forward. Will replace the valve but now trying to determine what I want to do for rockers.

Attached picture 8084406-valvesmall.JPG

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 10:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i would try shaft shims before new push rods.. IMO too long will not cause noise...

That makes sense. What do you use for shims? Is this something made specifically for this purpose? I'm imagining a washer.

WRONG , Shims are for correcting rocker to valve geometry NOT for correcting for pushrods that are too long .

Posted By: TJP

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 10:35 PM

RR read back a few posts and you'll find that he lost a tip off a valve stem

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/22/14 10:40 PM

Yes I forgot that you had found that round disc piece. I'd get it back together & with preload OK & I would check the wipe pattern with a junk hyd lifter locked solid & call it good if it (wipe pattern) is acceptable. If your preload is .030" I would lock the junk lifter so its cup rim is .030" below the snap ring for checking purposes

Posted By: 80fbody

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 12:36 AM

Your gut has been right so far. Stick with it. Personally, there's no way I'd just fix one valve & call it good. Either have a complete new set of valves, locks & retainers installed or run your iron heads. Losing the tip of the valve is not common. Either really poor hardening, chinese valves, wrong locks, etc. I run isky iron adjustable rockers on my small block street car. Been in service since 1988. Never an issue. Very similar to the 273 rockers.

Also, while your swapping the heads, you'll be able to inspect all cam lobes & check each lifter. Make sure to lube all the lobes again (don't mix up the lifters).

Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 01:54 AM

Quote:

Your gut has been right so far. Stick with it. Personally, there's no way I'd just fix one valve & call it good. Either have a complete new set of valves, locks & retainers installed or run your iron heads. Losing the tip of the valve is not common. Either really poor hardening, chinese valves, wrong locks, etc. I run isky iron adjustable rockers on my small block street car. Been in service since 1988. Never an issue. Very similar to the 273 rockers.

Also, while your swapping the heads, you'll be able to inspect all cam lobes & check each lifter. Make sure to lube all the lobes again (don't mix up the lifters).

I would replace all the valves just for your own piece of mind

If you don't have a performance shop locally I recommend Nick at www.compu-flow.com
Gus

Attached picture 8084604-moriaburnout.JPG

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 02:07 AM

Well..My gut was saying that I should replace all of them too. I can pick them all up at Summit for about $225. It will be worth the peace of mind. Is there a reason I should not replace the valves myself? I have done a couple many years ago. but never all of them and never on aluminum heads...Wouldn't think it would be that hard. Compress spring, remove locks and slide valve out...Reverse to install. Am I off base here?

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 02:08 AM

Quote:

Well..My gut was saying that I should replace all of them too. I can pick them all up at Summit for about $225. It will be worth the peace of mind. Is there a reason I should not replace the valves myself? I have done a couple many years ago. but never all of them and never on aluminum heads...Wouldn't think it would be that hard. Compress spring, remove locks and slide valve out...Reverse to install. Am I off base here?

You need to check stem to guide clearance , do you have the tools to do that ?

Posted By: Twostick

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 02:20 AM

Not to mention the machinery to perform a top quality valve job.

Kevin

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 02:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Well..My gut was saying that I should replace all of them too. I can pick them all up at Summit for about $225. It will be worth the peace of mind. Is there a reason I should not replace the valves myself? I have done a couple many years ago. but never all of them and never on aluminum heads...Wouldn't think it would be that hard. Compress spring, remove locks and slide valve out...Reverse to install. Am I off base here?

You need to check stem to guide clearance , do you have the tools to do that ?

That's what i needed to know...Looks like my machine shop is going to get more of my money...At least I didn't wipe the cam... That would have been much worse...

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 02:37 AM

Are the aluminum heads really worth the effort? Considering the cam I have and the set of J smog heads I have, would I be better off using the iron heads? Am I really going to see that much difference in performance to justify spending at least another $1000 for new valves, adjustable rockers and pushrods? The more I think about it I am inclined to cut my losses with the aluminum heads and use the J heads. What would you do?

Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 03:36 AM

I would get the new valves and lap them in just to check the valve job and if they look good I would run them.I would also just use the stock stamped rockers unless your running some seriously stiff valve springs.
Just my

Gus

Attached picture 8084712-rearviewsavoy.jpg

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 03:53 AM

Quote:

What would you do?

I would take the heads in to a trusted shop & get em checked out then post (here) what they say was wrong/how much they want to get em right then you'll be in a much better position to make an informed decision & you'll only be out what they charge you to evaluate them

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 04:04 AM

Quote:

Are the aluminum heads really worth the effort? Considering the cam I have and the set of J smog heads I have, would I be better off using the iron heads? Am I really going to see that much difference in performance to justify spending at least another $1000 for new valves, adjustable rockers and pushrods? The more I think about it I am inclined to cut my losses with the aluminum heads and use the J heads. What would you do?

I would determine the actual compression ratio with both sets of heads, if it above 10.0 to 1 with the iron heads and close to the same with the aluminum heads I would run the aluminum ones

I wouldn't run that much(10.0 to 1 or above) compression with pump gas with the iron heads

Posted By: moretoys

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 06:14 PM

If you have the money, the performance you'll get from the aluminum heads is far better than the iron heads will give you. The aluminum will be less likely to produce spark knock,
My thoughts on the valve tip broken is it happened at the machine shop. probably didn't have the tool centered and it caught the end of the valve, they usually have pneumatic spring compressor, I have used 273 adj rockers on a hydraulic cam 340 with off the shelf standard length pushrods. There is some valve train noise,you just hear things moving,probably 15,000 miles on the build so far. it will be hard to get a quiet, factory like noise level. expect some noise.

I think a new set of valves,lap them in, good to go.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/23/14 09:36 PM

I go the heads off today. Took a little work getting the intake off. I really had that sucker sealed. Everything looks good with the cam. Tops of pistons look fine too. All the lifters are fine. I think it was just that one valve. I wonder if the previous owner didn't glue the damn thing on before he shipped the heads. Anyhow, I am going to redo the heads and hopefully have it all back together in a week or two. A shout out to Doug's headers. I installed mine while I had the K member out so wasn't sure how easily they would be to install wight he motor in the car. If removing them was any indication, installing should be simple. Also, Bouchillon Performance for their AC compressor brackets. I was able to remove the intake and heads without removing the compressor. Save a bunch of time and effort.

Posted By: TJP

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/24/14 01:06 AM

Quote:

Well..My gut was saying that I should replace all of them too. I can pick them all up at Summit for about $225. It will be worth the peace of mind. Is there a reason I should not replace the valves myself? I have done a couple many years ago. but never all of them and never on aluminum heads...Wouldn't think it would be that hard. Compress spring, remove locks and slide valve out...Reverse to install. Am I off base here?

valves need to be Fit to the guides and seats, IE: machined. Unless you want more problems than you've had so far

Posted By: TJP

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/24/14 01:22 AM

Quote:

I have used 273 adj rockers on a hydraulic cam 340 with off the shelf standard length pushrods. There is some valve train noise,you just hear things moving,probably 15,000 miles on the build so far. it will be hard to get a quiet, factory like noise level. expect some noise.

your noise may be attributed to the known interference issues with 273 rockers

Quote:

I run isky iron adjustable rockers on my small block street car. Been in service since 1988. Never an issue. Very similar to the 273 rockers.

The rockers are Similar but not the same

Just trying to make a point with the above quotes. The 273 rockers will work to a point, but they will wreak havoc at higher RPM due to the KNOWN valve spring/ retainer issues as well as being weak when subjected to too much spring pressure. CHEAP is not always good. IE: 273 rockers on a 340/360. YEAH bubba does it, and gets by but can't figure out why he gets SMOKED. It's because the valve train is HOSED UP (IE: interference that limits the motors ability to RPM) and starts flutterin a bit above 4k RPM.
OK,
To the OP, KUDO's to you for finding the root cause, I will say before I ran 273 rockers I would drop back to NEW stamped steel ones that most likely have the clearance needed.

Posted By: Telvis

Re: Think I may have messed up...Help!!!!! - 03/29/14 09:05 PM

I swapped the heads this week and got everything back together. I went out this mornings and was able to get everything finished and start the car... Drum roll....The engine sounds great with no ticks at all! It was a pain in the butt taking the top of the motor apart and redoing everything I just finished but I am happy it's done. I'm really glad it wasn't a wiped cam. That would have been a true disaster. Going to bleed the front brakes later tonight and if the weather improves I will take it for the first drive tomorrow.

I may have messed up...Help!.. IT'S ALIVE!!!!!