Moparts

Hemi ID Question

Posted By: 70mopes

Hemi ID Question - 01/25/14 03:13 AM

Was looking at a 1970 RM21 hemi car yesterday. It was said to have the original motor in it. It has been owned by the same person since the early 70's. The only number I was able to get a picture of was on the top boss. I am not familiar with what is or should be stamped here. It looks like the number has a G in front of it. Does this ID it as a '71 motor? What do these markings mean?

Attached picture 8010597-DSCN0330.JPG
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/25/14 03:27 AM

That is not a run of the mill stamping. In 1971 there would have been very little stamped on the upper pad, usually just WT for Water tested, and other small letters and numbers indicating machining details. Also, if the color is true in that pic, the paint looks to be of 1968 and the earlier "Race Hemi Orange". It makes me wonder if it's an earlier engine with day two stampings on the pad added by someone (machine shop etc.). Another possibility is a warranty replacement engine which sometimes had unusual markings on the pad. At any rate, if you want to really know the answer you'll need to look at the VIN pad on the forward lower side of the passenger side on the block.

Typical Hemi Vin stamping

Attached picture 8010613-HemiBlockStampVIN.jpg
Posted By: 70mopes

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/25/14 03:48 AM

I am headed over there tomorrow to drop off some parts. I will try and get some shots of the rail. So you are saying that the stamping looks done by someone/someplace other than the factory? The numbers and the "G" look almost factory in nature.

Even though it has had the same owner for over 40 years, it was raced by the dealership prior to sale and was damaged pretty good at that time. It is going to take some sustained effort to get it back into shape. If the motor was treated anything like the body, it most certainly could have sustained a variety of issues that affected it negatively. It is said to only have 28k on the clock. Overall a totally cool mopar... Glad just to have got to see it.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/25/14 03:51 AM

I'm guessing here because as I said, it does not look typical, and if you look closely you'll notice that the WT stampings have orange paint on them while the G and following numbers do not, that and with your added comments I'd guess the G and following numbers were added later, likely by a machine shop or the dealer. The VIN stamping will tell you if it's original to the car, The MN# stamped on the oil pan rail extension will tell you more about it's original assembly date and sequence, etc.

Typical MN Stamping Picture

Attached picture 8010641-MN.jpg
Posted By: srt

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/25/14 05:49 AM

also check the top of the block where the trans or bellhousing mates the block. Bring a mirror. If it is a 68 block there may be 's there rather than on the side of block.
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/25/14 05:21 PM

That is strange. It definitely isn't a '66 or '67 used motor as the pads are stamped differently. My guess is that it's a later block or service block that was restamped with the VIN. The presence, or absence, of the numbers in Scott's photos should determine which. I've attached what a '68 bellhousing stamping looks like.

Attached picture 8011102-5605835-68HemiVINstamp.jpg
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/25/14 06:06 PM

When Hemis were very plentiful in my part of the world and a hemi went to a rebuilder, the rebuilder would sometimes put a serial number on a motor to mark the parts. You have to remember a lot of hemi motors do not have serial numbers on them. The marking of a serial number on the Pad on the front of the block is easy to recognize for the assembler. I know I have marked the rods, crank, balancer and other parts so when I get it back I know the motor has the parts in it that I gave them and not someone elses parts. The number on the pad is it the number on the VIN Pad.
Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/25/14 06:32 PM

The OP's pic does not show the factory partial VIN stamping that should be present. Those numbers were added at some point after production. Scott's pic shows where the factory stamped them in '70.

"G" could be the plant code. Is the car RM21R0 plus the digits on the top pad : G193539 ? (answered below: NO)
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/25/14 06:44 PM

I do not see an assembly dates on the pad either. Makes me wonder if this is a replacement block and that is why the serial number was stamped on the front pad.

Dan did you look at the last email I sent you with your weekend home work. I had a bigger list but can not find it, hope this can add something to your information.
Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/25/14 06:48 PM

Yes, I received this weekends work assignment. Typically NO dates on the HEMI top pad for 1970. Just the "WT" which this one got twice.
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/25/14 09:14 PM

I have a 70 Hemi block in the basement but it is decked so nothing on the pad at all. Have to go and take a look at my 1971 Hemi motor out of the Cuda on the floor in the garage and see what is on it. There was nothing but the WT on another 1970 Hemi Block I owned that was an over the counter block that I sold. All the 1966 Hemi Motors I have owned or own have the Letter on the motor, the "B" for the year.
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 12:15 AM

Went out in the garage and took a look at the 1971 motor. Just like you said Dan, WT on the pad also an A. Will have to see what Chrysler says about that A.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 12:22 AM

Here's a 70 Hemi pad, WT and misc. stamping numbers on the pad were the norm on 68-71 engines.

Attached picture 8011549-Scott1970HemiPad(2).jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 12:26 AM

Same engine VIN Pad (goofy stamped VIN #S like this were pretty common)

Attached picture 8011559-70HemiVINS.jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 12:27 AM

Same engine, casting date

Attached picture 8011561-ScottHemi1970Date(2).jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 12:28 AM

Here's a 68 pad, block was cast in 1966

Attached picture 8011563-1968HemiEngineDistributorBoss.jpg
Posted By: 70mopes

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 01:21 AM

Crawled around in the mud today and got some shots of the VIN pad and pan rail. Kind of a pain due that and the big ole rusy headers in the way. I think some of them turned out. Also got 833 stamping. It is original to the car. will post in a few....
Posted By: 70mopes

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 01:44 AM

VIN pad

Attached picture 8011661-DSCN0373.JPG
Posted By: 70mopes

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 01:45 AM

Pan rail

Attached picture 8011664-DSCN0378.JPG
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 01:49 AM

I would say what you have there is a service replacement engine, could have been installed under warranty, or just purchased over the counter.
Posted By: 70mopes

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 01:50 AM

SPD is 1/22.

The six digits after the "G" on the front top pad do not pertain to the last six of the VIN.

Looks like a service replacement block.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 01:51 AM

If you could see the sides of the block you will likely find one of these somewhere.

Attached picture 8011679-69HemiServiceTag(2).jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 01:52 AM

Tags were often ripped away but the rivets (or just the rivet hole) often remained.

Attached picture 8011680-1968HemiReplacemenTagRivot.jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 01:56 AM

The tag

Attached picture 8011684-70HemiShortBlockWarrantyServiceTag68ChargerStyle.jpg
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 04:34 AM

Quote:

Here's a 68 pad, block was cast in 1966




Same stamping on my motor out of my 1971 Cuda. A T W. If the serial number on the front pad is not the same as the car it is in you would have to do a lot of research to see who stamped the numbers and letters on the block. There could be all kinds of conclusion to this mystery of the block. It could of been a counter block or maybe someone got another short block or long block from another car or from another builder to put in this car when the motor got sick. Who knows unless you were involved.
Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 05:15 AM

It appears the OP has photographed a replacement (at a minimum) block that was machined in '69 then assembled & painted "race HEMI orange" (not the original color for a '70 Road Runner) then rebuilt/repaired/other & painted "street HEMI orange" & that paint job looks to be decades old. The additional numbers stamped on the top pad (G193539) are reference numbers to an invoice/customer/job number/other somewhere along the way.
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 05:30 AM

Looks like the "A" stands for a 20 over size piston. If Chrysler stamped the "A" on the block of my Cuda then it is a 429 Hemi just like a Ford Hemi. I believe when the motor was built the last time the builder stamped the block with the "A" knowing exactly what it was for for future rebuilding information.
Posted By: srt

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 05:56 PM

am I wrong in thinking that that block may have a history that *could* include grinding off of the pad #'s and re-stamp? The machine marks suspicious.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 06:23 PM

Quote:

The machine marks suspicious.




They look factory to me

Concerning the Race Hemi Orange paint (which looks original) all 64-68 Hemis and SOME 69 Hemis were painted Race Hemi Orange. So, it's likely that it was built before the paint color change. As stated, it's most likely a typical service replacement engine of the era that was put into inventory and used when needed as a warranty replacement or simply sold over the counter, etc. The other stampings were added after the fact by whomever, without a paper trail the rest is pure speculation.
Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 06:27 PM

If it is a "service replacement" or "over-the-counter" sold piece, the factory wouldn't have painted it.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 06:52 PM

Good point Dan, makes me wonder if there were exceptions to that?
Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 07:02 PM

How much, or little info is on the lower pad for a (March '69 vintage) "block" VS. "short block assembly"?
To me, the single date screams: when this left Chrysler it was a bare machined block ONLY.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 07:13 PM

As most have seen, this is how most (if not all) replacements looked, I just wonder if there were other ways they were delivered.

Attached picture 8012484-70HemiShortBlockWarrantyServiceTag2(2).jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 07:15 PM

But as far as the date on the pan rail extension, you might be right Dan, but I've seen some earlier blocks (originals installed in cars) with similar dates, so I can't comment with certainty on that one.

This tag was on a block installed into a 66 Hemi car, it was said to have been purchased as a replacement from Kieth Black back then. I can't say for sure but it appears that it was painted at the factory, either that or someone took the time to mask off the tag before painting and installing the engine.

Attached picture 8012487-MarineBlockReplacement.jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 07:17 PM

And in this case it looks as if someone restoring thier car wanted to preserve the appearance of the tag and masked it before painting, but that's a guess, it could have been painted at the factory before the tag was added? I wasn't there so I don't know.

Attached picture 8012491-TagPaintedblockA.jpg
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 07:39 PM

What is needed to be found out to start a search is just what was changed on this motor. Was there a replacement of a block only, short block or long block or complete motor. What version or year is the intake now on the motor. What year are the carbs and is there anything that is a different year to the body on the motor. How does anyone know if there was a complete total change of the motor without more information and maybe taking a look at some date codes on each part of the motor.

Back in the day you would rebuild your race motor every off season. Bearings, rings and updates every winter. Anytime I do any kind of build or rebuild of a motor every thing is taken down to bare metal. Blocks and heads go into the Hot Tank and cleaned. This would mean all paint would be eliminated from the cast iron parts such as the block. So if paint was left on the block then did someone just do a CIL rebuild on the motor by just painting everything. So did the complete motor get the paint of did just some pieces such as the block.
Posted By: Triggerfish

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 08:39 PM

Quote:

But as far as the date on the pan rail extension, you might be right Dan, but I've seen some earlier blocks (originals installed in cars) with similar dates, so I can't comment with certainty on that one.

This tag was on a block installed into a 66 Hemi car, it was said to have been purchased as a replacement from Kieth Black back then. I can't say for sure but it appears that it was painted at the factory, either that or someone took the time to mask off the tag before painting and installing the engine.




There's orange paint on the tag, so that leads me to think it wasn't
painted at the factory...
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 08:59 PM

The oil pan is black, not sure why and not sure if it is factory or aftermarket or altered factory pan. The Oil Pan bolts, is that bluish on them and the type of bolts? The only way to know more is to have someone go with the OP and look at all the numbers and colors and what ever that can give more information. Kind of a nice post for learning about different stuff on a Motor and how things were put together.
Posted By: hemi71x

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 09:27 PM

When i had these Hemi engines, along with a NOS hemi short block, in the crate, none of them were stamped on the ID pad.
They did have the WT stamp, along with one or two, letters "B" on the pad.
And by the way, the NOS shortblock was unpainted.

Attached picture 8012650-030(Small).JPG
Posted By: 68jim

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 10:40 PM

I agree on the not painted part. This block is one of the "Over the Counter" Hemi blocks. It has the WT stamp and two "B"s. It was pulled out of the Chrysler box and had been drop-shipped from Keith Black sometime around 1971. The block is a 5-19-69 casting and 4-24-702 on the pan rail.

Jim

Attached picture 8012763-DCP02519.JPG
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/26/14 10:45 PM

Quote:

I agree on the not painted part.




I also agree, but I am leaving the door open for other possibilities. I've seen quite a few NOS blocks (so far all bare) but have seen a fair number of warranty installed examples also, and some offer clues pointing towards some of them possibly being factory painted. Hopefully we as a group can keep investigating and add to the details we know about these.
Posted By: mccannix

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/27/14 02:23 AM

Scott
Wouldn't it make sense for someone to paint an engine just before installing.
If I were putting an over the counter block in back in the day, I would certainly have painted it.
I cant see the factory doing it..but then I wasn't there either.
The picture of your painted engine with the blue tag shows the rivet just resting against the tag like someone added it.
Those tags have always been available for sale if you look hard enough.
I know of two old school buses with about 15 'over the counter' blocks in their old wooden crates... 273, 318, 360, 361, 400's and none were painted.
Nor were the 340 or 440's that are gone now, painted.

Attached picture 8013079-zzzwarrenty1.JPG
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/27/14 06:56 AM

Never seen a bare block or short block that was bought from a Dealership ever having paint on it. The Hemi Short Block that was stolen from a person on Moparts and made its rounds from person to person then showed up on a thread on moparts was not painted just like the one above. I have had a few 440 bare blocks counter bought and all were not painted. The Hemi over the counter blocks I have owned were all used before I got them but I bought them completely without paint because they were ready to be assembled. One other thing, at one time when I built a motor I could not get Hemi Street Orange from the Dealership or any other place. This was around late 70s. I ended up using Plastikote Orange that is close in color back then. I have no idea why no one had Street Hemi Orange at the Dealerships.
Posted By: MarkMcDonald

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/27/14 04:11 PM

I know of a 70 Hemi car with a warrenty short block that was installed back in the day. They put it in right out of the crate with no paint on it!
Posted By: HemiStan

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/28/14 10:08 PM

I have been reading this thread as well as this one: 70 440 Warranty Block

I have this 1970 Hemi block with no VIN stamping. It does have the WT on the front pad. I can find no evidence of a hole in the side of the block for a rivet retaining a metal tag. As you can see from the back of the engine, there appears to be some of the correct Hemi Orange paint remaining. The rest of the orange paint seems to have been painted later and with the incorrect color.

I don't know if these pictures add anything to this thread but they may provide a bit more information regarding OTC and warranty replacement blocks. From looking at the pictures, does anyone have anything that they could share regarding this block?

Thanks.

Stan

Attached picture 8015781-426Block2.jpg
Posted By: HemiStan

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/28/14 10:09 PM

Back of engine:

Attached picture 8015782-HemiOrangePaint.jpg
Posted By: HemiStan

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/28/14 10:10 PM

Side view:

Attached picture 8015786-HemiSide.jpg
Posted By: HemiStan

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/28/14 10:11 PM

Casting date:

Attached picture 8015789-HemiCastingDate.jpg
Posted By: HemiStan

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/28/14 10:12 PM

VIN pad:

Attached picture 8015792-HemiVINPad.jpg
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/28/14 10:13 PM

Quote:

I have been reading this thread as well as this one: 70 440 Warranty Block

I have this 1970 Hemi block with no VIN stamping. It does have the WT on the front pad. I can find no evidence of a hole in the side of the block for a rivet retaining a metal tag. As you can see from the back of the engine, there appears to be some of the correct Hemi Orange paint remaining. The rest of the orange paint seems to have been painted later and with the incorrect color.

I don't know if these pictures add anything to this thread but they may provide a bit more information regarding OTC and warranty replacement blocks. From looking at the pictures, does anyone have anything that they could share regarding this block?

Thanks.

Stan




Stan that tag would only be affixed to an engine that was an assembly , I wouldn't expect to find the tag on a bare block that went over the counter .
Posted By: 68jim

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/28/14 11:12 PM

Stan,

See all those Qs and Ps on the side of the block? Look familiar? Your block, like mine, was most likely one available from the old Muscle Stuff catalog. The blocks were rough bored around .016"-.017"ish to allow for a final fit and honing to .020". Which, as I was informed a few years back, was max allowable for Super Stock and probably other classes back in the day. I know you have seen the one in the corner of my garage.

Jim

Attached picture 8015873-DCP02511.JPG
Posted By: 68jim

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/28/14 11:16 PM

Those green paint splotches look familiar as well...

Attached picture 8015879-DCP02509.JPG
Posted By: HemiStan

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/29/14 04:45 AM

John, thanks for the info. That sounds right.

Jim, I definitely remember that beautiful piece of cast iron. Yours is the first one I was thinking of when I was cleaning mine up. Does yours have a "B" stamped on the front pad? Mine does not from what I can tell.
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/29/14 06:14 AM

Mind your Ps and Qs. If I can remember correctly a block bore size can be 70th over stock in Super Stock. Can not remember the crank but it is something like 3.85. Wish I had an old NHRA book to study again. Going only by my memory and it is getting older and older, and I will type this like a question. Did Chrysler not put different letters on the side of the blocks to signify what piston went into each bore when assembling a Hemi at the factory. I thought I remember BCDEF piston sizes. So the Ps and Qs would be for another type of Chrysler description of a bore size of a Hemi Block.

1.26.70 This is a very popular time for Hemi Blocks to be cast for 1971 Vehicles. Maybe 75 percent were cast near this time at the end of January.
Posted By: 68jim

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/29/14 04:25 PM

Quote:

Does yours have a "B" stamped on the front pad?




Stan,

Aside from the usual WT it also has two "B"s stamped on the pad.

Attached picture 8016877-DCP02516.JPG
Posted By: B5 Bee

Re: Hemi ID Question - 01/30/14 02:40 AM

Quote:

Mind your Ps and Qs. If I can remember correctly a block bore size can be 70th over stock in Super Stock. Can not remember the crank but it is something like 3.85. Wish I had an old NHRA book to study again. Going only by my memory and it is getting older and older, and I will type this like a question. Did Chrysler not put different letters on the side of the blocks to signify what piston went into each bore when assembling a Hemi at the factory. I thought I remember BCDEF piston sizes. So the Ps and Qs would be for another type of Chrysler description of a bore size of a Hemi Block.





NHRA allows OEM stroke plus .015, or 3.75 + .015 = 3.765.

The extra .015 gives about 1.75 cu in. Every bit helps in SS.
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: Hemi ID Question - 02/01/14 04:29 AM

Quote:

As most have seen, this is how most (if not all) replacements looked, I just wonder if there were other ways they were delivered.




I bought a bare MP Hemi block ('74 casting) from an individual in 1989. It was in a cardboard box with the Mopar parts tag on it.
Posted By: hemicar1971

Re: Hemi ID Question - 02/01/14 12:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

As most have seen, this is how most (if not all) replacements looked, I just wonder if there were other ways they were delivered.




I bought a bare MP Hemi block ('74 casting) from an individual in 1989. It was in a cardboard box with the Mopar parts tag on it.




I believe 1974 casting date block are the High Nickel content blocks sold by Chrysler through Direct Connection. Around 1978 Mancini Racing sold a bunch of old NOS Hemi Shorts Blocks but they were all gone by the time the Car magazine can to your house. Chrysler started to dump off all the Hemi Stuff. Do you still have the block, if so did you ever weight it.
Posted By: 68jim

Re: Hemi ID Question - 02/01/14 03:53 PM

[quote
I bought a bare MP Hemi block ('74 casting) from an individual in 1989. It was in a cardboard box with the Mopar parts tag on it.




I saved the box mine came in but after 40+ years the cardboard is not in the best of shape.

Attached picture 8021266-DCP02520.JPG
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: Hemi ID Question - 02/01/14 05:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

As most have seen, this is how most (if not all) replacements looked, I just wonder if there were other ways they were delivered.




I bought a bare MP Hemi block ('74 casting) from an individual in 1989. It was in a cardboard box with the Mopar parts tag on it.




I believe 1974 casting date block are the High Nickel content blocks sold by Chrysler through Direct Connection. Around 1978 Mancini Racing sold a bunch of old NOS Hemi Shorts Blocks but they were all gone by the time the Car magazine can to your house. Chrysler started to dump off all the Hemi Stuff. Do you still have the block, if so did you ever weight it.




I'd have to look in an old MP catalog but MP offered two blocks, the standard and what they called (IIRC) the 'fuel' block. That's what mine is based on the part number. I do still have the block and have never weighed it. I've just never taken the time to try to find out what is different between this block and a standard production block. Sitting next to a '66 casting there are obvious cosmetic differences in the rail area and the wedge motor mount ears but I've never gone any further.
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