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Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ?

Posted By: cjskotni

Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/22/14 03:46 PM

Guys,

I know there have been numerous posts about this topic before but I am having trouble locating them and I wanted input based on my setup. My car is a 1973 Charger with pretty much stock (restored) suspension and steering. Only 'upgrades' have been thicker stabilizer bar and polygraphite bushings all around. I replaced the power steering box a few years back with an expensive rebuilt one and it still pretty much sucks. The steering is loose and you can still wiggle the steering shaft 5-10* before it has resistance from the box. This is the box itself as you can do this directly from the input shaft. The steering coupler has been totally rebuilt and there is no slop in the shaft/coupler/ragjoint itself.

I have seen the posts about the Firm Feel upgrade you can do which looks appealing. I have also seen the Borgeson setup but it appears it would require cutting the steering shaft which I am not keen on. My car would be classified as a 'restomod' but I want it heavier on the 'resto' and less on the 'mod'. Therefore, I am leaning towards going the Firm Feel route. I see they make three stages I-III.

My car is a street car first and foremost. I would be happy to get rid of the slop and maybe make the steering more like a modern car. hell, I'd be pumped if it had steering like my 4banger Honduh Accord daily driver! I am guessing maybe stage II would be what I want here? I am guessing stage III would be one step from manual steering which I don't want.

Can anybody here recommend which route I should take here? Stage II or III? Anybody else to consider? Also, what is the turnaround time to have one sent out? I may just swallow the core charge and buy one outright as I don't want to disable my car for very long to pull the existing one and ship it off. Any 1st hand experiences you can share?


Thanks as always!
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/22/14 05:16 PM

have you tried the washer trick?
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post6874251
Posted By: a12rag

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/22/14 06:30 PM

I went with the Firm Feel box - III in my stock 70 Sport Satellite. It feels great, much more like a rack and pinion style steering - tight and responsive.

You could always find a "core" at your local wrecking yard, and send that in . . .

Good Luck . . . Dick and company @ Firm Feel are always there to answer any questions you would have. Perhaps give them a call . . .

Cheers

Mark
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/22/14 07:12 PM

Quote:

have you tried the washer trick?
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post6874251



I have heard about that but that won't fix the slop only make the steering a bit firmer. The looseness in the steering is what makes driving the car not as pleasant to me...
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/22/14 07:14 PM

Quote:

I went with the Firm Feel box - III in my stock 70 Sport Satellite. It feels great, much more like a rack and pinion style steering - tight and responsive.

You could always find a "core" at your local wrecking yard, and send that in . . .

Good Luck . . . Dick and company @ Firm Feel are always there to answer any questions you would have. Perhaps give them a call . . .

Cheers

Mark



How is the stage III in parking lots? I don't mind some effort but I don't want to feel like I have manual steering either. How does it compare to a modern sedan (not performance) as far as firmness?
Posted By: burdar

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/22/14 07:20 PM

I assume you've tried tightening up the adjuster on the top of the box?
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/22/14 07:20 PM

Firm Feel stage III, go stage II, you'll wish you went stage III, I have a Firm Feel stage III on my 70 Charger, awesome steering response, "steer" clear of Steer and Gear's boxes, the last box I had grenaded after 3 yrs of use, and the other Steer and Gear boxes I used on assorted restos were less than stellar in comparison to the Firm Feel box
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/22/14 07:27 PM

Quote:

I assume you've tried tightening up the adjuster on the top of the box?



I did try that but they must have welded that adjuster nut on. I had breaker bar on the nut that holds the adjuster and I could not loosen it for fear of rounding off the nut or breaking something.

I have also heard the that is a band aid that will cause the box to wear faster...not that I care for the mileage this car gets but still that nut is stuck tight. If I am going through the trouble to pull the box to have to do this on a bench, I will probably get the FirmFeel (or other) box to be done with this.
Posted By: floridian

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/22/14 10:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I assume you've tried tightening up the adjuster on the top of the box?



I did try that but they must have welded that adjuster nut on. I had breaker bar on the nut that holds the adjuster and I could not loosen it for fear of rounding off the nut or breaking something.

I have also heard the that is a band aid that will cause the box to wear faster...not that I care for the mileage this car gets but still that nut is stuck tight. If I am going through the trouble to pull the box to have to do this on a bench, I will probably get the FirmFeel (or other) box to be done with this.



You heard wrong.. It is not a band-aid, and if ( like any other part of your car) it is not adjusted correctly you will experience what you are describing.. Try it, made a huge difference on my 67..

Attached picture 8007720-5554552-vertbaseball2.jpg
Posted By: hemi70

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 12:20 AM

I put a Firm Feel stage III box in my '70 B-body about 5 years ago and I LOVE IT!!!!
As said before it has the response and feel of a rack and pinion set up but it is NEVER hard to turn.

Gary.
Posted By: goldduster318

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 01:45 AM

Borgenson...More expensive, but much better. Better ratio, better feel, smaller and lighter box..



It's just awesome. Call Bergman Auto Craft
Posted By: beecrazy

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 01:53 AM

In about a month I should be able to give you real feedback on borgeson box.I purchase the box and all hardware from moparts member Peter Bergman. Peter modified a stock mopar coupler that when used with a PS column makes the whole change a bolt in deal, no cutting. The Oct 2013 mopar action magazine article titled steer clear show this new hardware.

Kevin
Posted By: ahy

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 02:33 AM

I'm running the FF stage II and love it. I think stage III would be fine also. Parking maneuvers shouldn't be an issue with either.
Posted By: syleng1

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 03:23 PM

I've read the entire thread as I too am battling with a loose steering box. I mean the 66 is original and after 48 years I'd be sloppy as well with a new suspension and alignment. I mean it is fun driving straight and the car goes left or right is fun... but only I can drive the Barracuda. If any one else tries they freak out and pull over. It is great theft preventer but I'd rather try an ignition cut off before a loose steering box any day.

I have a few questions only either lightly covered or not at all.
1) how is parking maneuvers from those with stage II or III?
2) How the heck do you send a steering gear? UPS or private carrier; and how do you box it? Like a plywood box you build or just a heavy duty cardboard box? I am in CT and they are in WA. That's a lot of distance.

Anymore input on Stage II or stage III would be awesome!
Thanks,
Joe
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 03:30 PM

Quote:

Borgenson...More expensive, but much better. Better ratio, better feel, smaller and lighter box..



I do like the idea of having a dimensionally smaller box as I had to dent my headers to clear the factory box. I am sure that is a nice upgrade!

I am not sure I want to spend quite that much on the steering and lose some of that old-school factory look. The quick ratio might be more fun but I would just be happy with getting the slop out and maybe firming up the steering some.

I think I am leaning towards a Firm Feel for my situation. I just want to know whether I should go stage II or III. Can anybody here compare these stages to a modern day car? I'm not looking for a race car, just to feel more 'modern' and responsive than the floating yacht feeling I have now....
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 03:35 PM

Quote:

How the heck do you send a steering gear? UPS or private carrier; and how do you box it? Like a plywood box you build or just a heavy duty cardboard box? I am in CT and they are in WA. That's a lot of distance.



I have shipped plenty of car parts. I would use a very sturdy cardboard box and maybe line the inside with additional cardboard to stiffen it up some. The other key here is to use the foam or some type of packing material that WON'T allow the gear to bounce around inside the box at all. If the gear bounces around inside the box, it will start to destroy the box. Other than that, it's not like it's a fragile part.

For something that heavy, I would use UPS ground over USPS as they get more pricey for larger, heavier items.
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 04:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

How the heck do you send a steering gear? UPS or private carrier; and how do you box it? Like a plywood box you build or just a heavy duty cardboard box? I am in CT and they are in WA. That's a lot of distance.



I have shipped plenty of car parts. I would use a very sturdy cardboard box and maybe line the inside with additional cardboard to stiffen it up some. The other key here is to use the foam or some type of packing material that WON'T allow the gear to bounce around inside the box at all. If the gear bounces around inside the box, it will start to destroy the box. Other than that, it's not like it's a fragile part.

For something that heavy, I would use UPS ground over USPS as they get more pricey for larger, heavier items.






Go to Home Depot, Lowes, etc, etc, buy a 5 gal bucket and and a snap on lid to ship it in, add some packing, problem solved, even has a handle, and if it leaks, no problem, it's contained, your carrier will appreciate it
Posted By: BDW

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 04:42 PM

How big is it; what about the USPS large flat rate box?
I was able to ship a Dana 60 power-lok, with some disassembly.
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 06:28 PM

Cardboard is fine if you package it properly.Last Sept I sent a power steering box from PA to Prospect South AU,41 lb,started with USPS Priority Int,then transfered FedEx Global Express,made it to AU in the same condition as when it left PA.,don't ask what it cost !!
Posted By: a12rag

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 06:41 PM

II versus III for ease of steering ??? Not too sure, as I have only gone with the stage III unit. However, it is not too bad when parking or slow, still some assist, but not the factory one finger . . . honestly, it is good and on the road, wayyy better than factory unit.

Probably best to talk to Firm Feel, as they can advise better for each person's taste . . .

In my case, 70 B body with small block, a/c, and it looks factory, works great . . .

Good luck

Cheers

Mark

- shipping ?? I would agree about the bucket from HD or Lowes. However, FF ships the unit wrapped in a plastic bag, and then inside cardboard box . . .
Posted By: TOMRR

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 10:59 PM

I just purchased Stage Two from Firm Feel for my 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner. Give them a call Great to talk to and with advice
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/23/14 11:07 PM

They have a Stage IV that they don't advertise. So if you want the steering really stiff just ask. (But don't complain if it is too much)
Posted By: RJS

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/24/14 02:04 AM

Wow never seen this board so Pro Firm Feel only.
The answer I usually hear is it depends on where your located and then send to either Firm Feel or Steer and Gear.

I have used both over the years with mostly Steer and Gear since they are closer to the East and have had ZERO problems with either company.
I have never used tighter than a Stage 2 and was ALWAYS satisfied.
The last box was the original from my 70 GTX, Stage 2 done by Steer and Gear.
If I ever pull the one out of my Demon (in decent shape as it sits) it will go the Steer and Gear for a Stage 2 experience.
Ron
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/24/14 02:14 AM

Yup another Firm Feel Fan, better quality control from firm feel vs large reman company steer n gear.

And great service and tech support.

Firm Feel Stage 3 in a 70 Charger R/T.
Same as my 1996 Intrepid ES with the speed sensitive steering. Nice.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- Firm Feel ? - 01/24/14 04:53 AM

Quote:



How is the stage III in parking lots? I don't mind some effort but I don't want to feel like I have manual steering either. How does it compare to a modern sedan (not performance) as far as firmness?



I have the Stage 3 in the Charger, along with Fast ratio Idler and Pitman arms that make the effort even higher. Also, I'm turning 275/40/18 tires.
Parking lot maneuvers feels like manual steering. You feel it but don't need to be Arnold Schwarzenegger to drive it.
Posted By: cjskotni

Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- What Paint? - 02/08/14 03:25 AM

I went ahead and ordered the Firm Feel stage III box. I am looking to paint it with Eastwood's Extreme Chassis Black. Will this hold up with the box being so close to the headers?

There is only about 3/8" or so clearance between the box and one of the primary tubes. Is this going to burn the paint right off the box? Would engine paint be a better choice?

Thanks!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- What Paint? - 02/08/14 07:40 AM

I had the same clearance problems with the headers being so close. I ended up denting the headers a little.
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- What Paint? - 02/08/14 04:32 PM

Quote:

I had the same clearance problems with the headers being so close. I ended up denting the headers a little.



Yeah same here, headers have been 'clearanced' already. I just need to know if the close proximity is going to roast the paint off the gear. FWIW, the gear that's in there came painted and so far, no burned paint....
Posted By: roe

Re: Power Steering Box Upgrade Options -- What Paint? - 02/08/14 05:05 PM

I would use the black high heat header paint. Good to 1200 deg or so.
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