Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps?

Posted By: VoodooCLD

Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/11/13 09:45 PM

I'm having a heck of a time getting my power steering and pulleys in general lined up. I'm currently running a 74 440 block with an early cast iron water pump (drivers side exit). I have the high mounts from 440source, and a saginaw late model pump with press fit pulley.
I have 2,3, and 4 groove crank pulleys, and 2 different single groove water pump pulleys (one deep, and one shallow), i also have a double groove water pump pulley.
will all the pulleys, i can't seem to get the power steering pump to line up to the crank at all.

Is there a different in overall length of the early and late style saginaw pumps?

I'd like to just run the power steering and alternator for now, but eventually will get a compressor, and run A/C.

Any information/advice?

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/12/13 01:51 AM

I'd space the PS unit forward or backward till it lines up with one of the crank pulley grooves. Which I ain't telling you anything that you dont already know so this is more of a BTT for ya

Posted By: CSK

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/12/13 01:54 AM

with the 4 groove pulley the power stg pump should line up with 2nd groove from the front.

Posted By: ahy

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/12/13 03:10 AM

On the Saginaw pumps SB and BB have different pulley spacing. Are you sure you have a BB pump?

In general, mixing different generation pulleys and brackets doesn't work. I tried it with a '78 BB core in a '70. What a mess. I wound up getting a '70 style WP housing (most aluminum repops are), PS bracket from Bouchillon, Sanden compressor and mount from Bouchillon and matching "with AC" 2 groove fan pulley. The rebuilt Saginaw BB pump from the '78 fit fine. Bouchillon has some good pictures on their site.

I'm not sure how you would run a "with AC" setup without compressor. The compressor and alternator share a pair of belts and "with AC" alternator mounts are unique with different sweep for adjustment. One option is to go ahead and install the compressor. With no power to the clutch it will act as idler. You can run that way until the rest of the system is ready.

I've attached a pic that shows part of the setup. Note I went with the giant 100A '78 core alternator after the square back and matching brackets from Bouchillon didn't have enough juice for my application.

Attached picture 7920909-IMG_2201.jpg

Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/12/13 05:51 AM

Thanks for the the info. I'm begenning to think my issues might be with my water pump. With the current water pump, the 2 pads that the pump mounts to are not on the same plane, the lower tab seems to stick out further which limits my adjustment to align the pulley's. I have another water pump with even mounting pads, but they exit the water on the passenger side, and i just bought a brand new radiator for the driver side.

I'm thinking of taking an angle grinder to even up the power steering mounting pads, can anyone give me a good reason not to do so?

Posted By: CSK

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/12/13 02:28 PM

mine is 68,with after market ac & stg pump.& the mounting for pump is in the same plane.

Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/12/13 04:31 PM

csk thanks for the picture. I see you used the bouchillon rear bracket, did you use part number(BPE4700)?
What bracket did you use for the front of the a/c compressor?
also what compressor did you use?

That little bent bracket on the back, i have that, however i'm not sure what it's supposed to go to, can you take a picture just like that but zoomed out so i can see the power steering setup better?

Thanks

Posted By: 4woody

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/12/13 05:42 PM

I had a similar issue with the high P/S pump mount.

For me the solution turned out to be a pulley from a SBC with a long water pump that I had laying around. IIRC it has less offset than the Mopar pulleys I had, and with a couple of washers behind the bracket I was able to get things lined up.

Posted By: CSK

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/12/13 06:00 PM

talk to the people at buechelon BPE,THEY can fix you up on everything you need,i dont remember the part # of brackets,but there are different brackets for a number of water pump housings,they will need the # off yours.

Posted By: floridian

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/13/13 01:47 PM

Had this issue with my 67 coronet w/ a 440.. There are all sorts of differences from year to year and pump to pump..

My lower two groove pulley ( on the crank/damper) had rusted in two when I was rebuilding it.. NONE of the pulleys lined up. Seems as if this was a 1 yr only thing? and was appx 1/8" shorter in height than all of the other pulleys in the world.. Randy, 1wildRT helped me out with one he had...

Same with the PS pump. Lost mine somehow ( car was apart for 18 years) and the TRW pump it came with had two different sizes ( small block/bigblock?? ) not only in pump diameter but pulley distance from the main body.. Only way I finally got mine to work was going through a barrel of old pumps at Wildcat Automotive with a tape measure.
I can't imagine tryng to upgrade or change to a different model pump after what I went through.....

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Attached picture 7922529-5554552-vertbaseball2.jpg

Posted By: VoodooCLD

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/13/13 05:47 PM

Quote:

Had this issue with my 67 coronet w/ a 440.. There are all sorts of differences from year to year and pump to pump..

My lower two groove pulley ( on the crank/damper) had rusted in two when I was rebuilding it.. NONE of the pulleys lined up. Seems as if this was a 1 yr only thing? and was appx 1/8" shorter in height than all of the other pulleys in the world.. Randy, 1wildRT helped me out with one he had...

Same with the PS pump. Lost mine somehow ( car was apart for 18 years) and the TRW pump it came with had two different sizes ( small block/bigblock?? ) not only in pump diameter but pulley distance from the main body.. Only way I finally got mine to work was going through a barrel of old pumps at Wildcat Automotive with a tape measure.
I can't imagine tryng to upgrade or change to a different model pump after what I went through.....

Thanks for all the reassurance! Ha!

I just ordered a compressor and bracket. My plan is to set it up as a factory a/c setup with 4 groove pulley on the crank, and single groove water pump pulley utilizing the idler pulley. I'm going to try and get everything mocked up except for the pump. If everything looks good, i'm gonna shave a little off the water pump housing to get the pump in line. Later if i need to change pumps, i'll just use spacers to get it in it's location. Currently i can't adjust it far enough back before the power steering bracket bottoms out on the water pump housing.

Posted By: Jerry

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/15/13 01:28 PM

this pulley alignment issue is why we came out with our serpentine belt kits. a few billet brackets, some modern accessories, and you don't have to worry about lining things up since we did it for you.

Posted By: floridian

Re: Pulley issues on 440, difference in saginaw pumps? - 11/15/13 01:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Had this issue with my 67 coronet w/ a 440.. There are all sorts of differences from year to year and pump to pump..

My lower two groove pulley ( on the crank/damper) had rusted in two when I was rebuilding it.. NONE of the pulleys lined up. Seems as if this was a 1 yr only thing? and was appx 1/8" shorter in height than all of the other pulleys in the world.. Randy, 1wildRT helped me out with one he had...

Same with the PS pump. Lost mine somehow ( car was apart for 18 years) and the TRW pump it came with had two different sizes ( small block/bigblock?? ) not only in pump diameter but pulley distance from the main body.. Only way I finally got mine to work was going through a barrel of old pumps at Wildcat Automotive with a tape measure.
I can't imagine tryng to upgrade or change to a different model pump after what I went through.....

Thanks for all the reassurance! Ha!

I just ordered a compressor and bracket. My plan is to set it up as a factory a/c setup with 4 groove pulley on the crank, and single groove water pump pulley utilizing the idler pulley. I'm going to try and get everything mocked up except for the pump. If everything looks good, i'm gonna shave a little off the water pump housing to get the pump in line. Later if i need to change pumps, i'll just use spacers to get it in it's location. Currently i can't adjust it far enough back before the power steering bracket bottoms out on the water pump housing.

Just letting you know that people on here telling you its bolt up are incorrect.. Maybe some of the aftermarket ( Jerry) systems would be....

Attached picture 7924950-5554552-vertbaseball2.jpg

Attached picture 7924950-5554552-vertbaseball2.jpg