Moparts

Internally regulated alternators - good or bad?

Posted By: jbeintherockies

Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 10/31/13 05:03 AM

After having my alternator (square back) bench tested at three different locations, I have accepted the fact that it needs to be replaced or rebuilt.

I was looking online to see what is available and I found some replacement alternators on summit that are internally regulated. At first thought, this sounds like a great idea. But, without a remote sensing capability, it may not always produce the desired output.

What are some things I need to consider before buying one? I have determined my existing alternator is probably a 60 amp and I don't want to go much higher than that (probably go with 75 amp alternator). If you have tried one (or not), I would like to hear your thoughts on the idea.

Thanks
Posted By: ademon

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 10/31/13 07:01 AM

i just used a Toyota 4 runner alt 1989, holds 14.4v idle to 6,500rpm. you need to modify or buy a bracket. and the wiring mod is available on line somewhere .

Attached picture 7906441-71Demon340(5).JPG
Posted By: ademon

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 10/31/13 07:02 AM

2nd

Attached picture 7906442-71Demon340(17).jpg
Posted By: Michael Ecks

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 10/31/13 01:34 PM



best upgrade I ever did for my car. wiring is fairly straightforward, AR Engineering brackets are pretty cheap. No more dim headlights at idle, no more bog from low voltage I'm the ignition at take off. Stock-ish looking parts, only a die hard mopar person will notice it a car show, unlike a big chrome aftermarket piece.
Posted By: BDW

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 10/31/13 01:59 PM

Any way to adapt a 2 belt pully for AC small block car?
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 10/31/13 05:16 PM

How do you suppose internal regulators work? They regulate output based on battery voltage same as external ones. They just have the regulator miniaturized and mounted in or on the alternator.
There is always at least one connection between the alternator and the battery, isn't there?

R.
Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 10/31/13 05:26 PM

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-74091/overview/make/plymouth

one wire setup ...
Posted By: jbeintherockies

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/01/13 12:04 AM

This is where I get confused. If the alternator is holding 14.4 volts at all times, doesn't that mean the battery will get overcharged at some point?
Posted By: denfireguy

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/01/13 02:01 AM

No. The voltage remains constant but the current flowing to the battery is negligible. Lead acid batteries love constant voltage sources while NiCads, LiOn and some others like constant current sources.

Craig
Posted By: ahy

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/01/13 04:25 AM

With a one wire, any voltage drop in the charge wire will result in lower voltage to the electrical system and battery. A really big charge wire from alternator to battery can help overcome this problem but one wire is not optimal for voltage regulation. Most 1 wire alternators are available with 3 wire setup or convertible to 3 wire.
Posted By: denfireguy

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/01/13 02:37 PM

The biggest drawback of internal regulation is the heat generated by the alternator does not contribute to the longevity of the electronics in the regulator. That is why Mother Mopar did not do that when they invented the first mass produced standard equipment alternator.

Craig
Posted By: 383man

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/01/13 04:05 PM

Quote:

This is where I get confused. If the alternator is holding 14.4 volts at all times, doesn't that mean the battery will get overcharged at some point?



No as the regulators job is to maintain battery voltage in 13.0 to 15.0 area depending on outside temps. At 14.4 it would most likely be in the 30 to 60 degree outside temps but it can hold 14.4 volts at 3 to 5 amps or at 25 amps depending on the battery charge and the load from the rest of the electrical units on the car. Say you leave your lights on and run the battery down. When you start the car it may take about 25 to 30 amps just going in the battery to hold 14.4 volts. But as the battery volts comes up the regulator cuts back the alt output. So once the battery is just about fully charged it may only take in 3 or 4 amps to hold the voltage at 14.4 or whatever the target voltage is depending on outside temps. If you have a charged battery but turn on your heater and lights then the alt may put out 40 amps as 37 amps may be supplying the lights and heater and 3 amps to the battery to hold the proper battery volts. Ron
Posted By: Pyper70

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/01/13 04:06 PM

I have a Internally regular Delco Remy on my 440 and its been there for 13 years. Never given me a problem, always given me 14.6 volts ...I just have to rod check when I start to turn it on at 1500rpm...Custom made brackets for this.

I installed the single wire Powermaster 140amp on my buddy's 72 Roadrunner about 2 months ago and he loves it too. Just remember to run an inline MegaFuse just in case something lets go and you don't run mass Voltage to the battery..Stock bracketswork for this but you have to remove the pulley & 3-bolts to rotate the housing to clear the rear terminal.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/01/13 04:39 PM

I've sold hundreds of the bracket kits over the past 10 years to adapt the Toyota Denso alternator to SB, BB and Hemi engines. Most everyone is really happy with the improvement. The Denso design reflects several decades of engineering development over the original Mopar design but it still has the look and reliability of an OEM part.
Posted By: Michael Ecks

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/01/13 07:56 PM

Quote:

I've sold hundreds of the bracket kits over the past 10 years to adapt the Toyota Denso alternator to SB, BB and Hemi engines. Most everyone is really happy with the improvement. The Denso design reflects several decades of engineering development over the original Mopar design but it still has the look and reliability of an OEM part.



As previously mentioned I am one of those really happy people. Thanks for engineering those brackets!
Posted By: jbeintherockies

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/02/13 12:55 AM

Quote:

I've sold hundreds of the bracket kits over the past 10 years to adapt the Toyota Denso alternator to SB, BB and Hemi engines. Most everyone is really happy with the improvement. The Denso design reflects several decades of engineering development over the original Mopar design but it still has the look and reliability of an OEM part.



According to the Mancini site, the brackets will not work with a driver-side inlet water pump. Of course, that is the style of water pump on my car. Dang' it!

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/maenalbr.html

My radiator (expensive aluminum version) is a driver side outlet, which will make it a challenge to cobble together a lower radiator hose if I decide to switch to a passenger-side inlet water pump.

Do they sell a lower radiator hose for what I need? If not, has anyone cobbled one together to get a newer style water pump to work with an older style radiator outlet?
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/02/13 04:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I've sold hundreds of the bracket kits over the past 10 years to adapt the Toyota Denso alternator to SB, BB and Hemi engines. Most everyone is really happy with the improvement. The Denso design reflects several decades of engineering development over the original Mopar design but it still has the look and reliability of an OEM part.



According to the Mancini site, the brackets will not work with a driver-side inlet water pump. Of course, that is the style of water pump on my car. Dang' it!

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/maenalbr.html

My radiator (expensive aluminum version) is a driver side outlet, which will make it a challenge to cobble together a lower radiator hose if I decide to switch to a passenger-side inlet water pump.

Do they sell a lower radiator hose for what I need? If not, has anyone cobbled one together to get a newer style water pump to work with an older style radiator outlet?



Is that just because the fore and aft spacing is all setup for a aluminum 70-up water pump?

I mocked up and ran the 45 amp Suzuki Samurai Denso alternator on a 68 Cast Iron water pump. You just have to do the spacing yourself and modify some brackets. Didn't really modify the 3 bolt alternator bracket at all for this.

The alternator need to be moved back about equal to a full groove. There wasn't much space behind the alternator at all.

Attached picture 7908795-2_27_11Sm19.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/02/13 04:31 AM

Detail side shot

Attached picture 7908815-2_27_11Sm16.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/02/13 04:41 AM

Another shot showing pulleys and brackets better.

Was mocking up the alternator and MSD E-curve on the old motor first. Just to make sure there were no issue on a new motor start-up.

You can really see how the alternator pulley is too far forward (...or the fan pulley groove is too far back)

Attached picture 7908828-2_27_11Sm09.JPG
Posted By: babarracuda

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/02/13 01:04 PM

I have a Powermaster 1 wire 75A alternaor. Works great, fits fine.

Attached picture 7909012-latest005.jpg
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/02/13 03:39 PM

In general, the drawback to the internal regulation scheme is the inability to adjust voltage in response to ambient temps. In fact, for many years starting in the late '80s, Ma Mopar added a battery temperature sensor to the mix, to reduce voltage levels if the battery became too hot.

Internal regulators are warmed by the nearby current-carrying components, so are poor at adjusting voltage vs. temps.

Just my 2¢ worth.

Rick
Posted By: jbeintherockies

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/04/13 02:11 AM

All,

Thank you for the posts and advice.

I decided to go with the denso alternator and I bought the denso alternator kit from Hughes Engines (alternator brackets, alternator, pigtail). Now I will try my luck and see if I can make it work with a 68-style water pump. If not, I'll put a new 70-style pump on it. Based on what I have read, the denso alternator has a remote voltage sensing capability, like the delco-remy si alternators. I really wanted that feature.

On to the next challenge: installation and wiring
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/04/13 02:40 AM

Quote:

All,

Thank you for the posts and advice.

I decided to go with the denso alternator and I bought the denso alternator kit from Hughes Engines (alternator brackets, alternator, pigtail). Now I will try my luck and see if I can make it work with a 68-style water pump. If not, I'll put a new 70-style pump on it. Based on what I have read, the denso alternator has a remote voltage sensing capability, like the delco-remy si alternators. I really wanted that feature.

On to the next challenge: installation and wiring



The wiring is super simple.

If you have a 68 square box type regulator, just remove the regulator and connect the input and output.

Then take the green wire to the 68 alternator and connect it to the Ignition "I" terminal. Run a wire from the "S" terminal to a good positive battery source.

Take the big lug to your old alternator and connect it to the big lug of the new Denso.

Done.


http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/elec/34.html

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/04/13 02:44 AM

Quote:

All,

Thank you for the posts and advice.

I decided to go with the denso alternator and I bought the denso alternator kit from Hughes Engines (alternator brackets, alternator, pigtail). Now I will try my luck and see if I can make it work with a 68-style water pump. If not, I'll put a new 70-style pump on it. Based on what I have read, the denso alternator has a remote voltage sensing capability, like the delco-remy si alternators. I really wanted that feature.

On to the next challenge: installation and wiring



The problem with switching to 70-up water pump is all the other stuff you need: radiator, fan shroud for that radiator, hoses, water pump pulley, crank pulley, power steering brackets, and alternator brackets.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: Internally regulated alternators - good or bad? - 11/05/13 03:10 PM

Quote:

I have a Internally regular Delco Remy on my 440 and its been there for 13 years. Never given me a problem, always given me 14.6 volts ...<snip>I



This is EXACTLY the problem with internal regulators! No (or inaccurate) modulation vs. temperature. On a car that's driven occasionally (cruiser, drag car) this isn't a serious problem. On a daily driver, however, this drastically cuts battery life.

Rick
© 2024 Moparts Forums