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Cam break in is done, time to tune. ** Uh-OH !!!

Posted By: Kern Dog

Cam break in is done, time to tune. ** Uh-OH !!! - 08/30/13 05:05 AM

The Lunati cam swap is complete and the break-in is done.
I will admit that this has been a bit of a nerve wracking job. I have dragged my feet through most of it because much has been just a smidge outside of my experience. This is my first solid lifter cam and my first time degreeing one. I read everything everyone wrote in all of the posts I have put up. I read the Mopar Action magazine article on "First Fire" in this months issue. I didn't want to be in the position where I skipped a crucial step that led to another cam failure.
The engine started up within 2 seconds. Jeff ( My brother-in-law) brought it up to 2600 rpms and held it there. There were no leaks anywhere which was nice to see. The exhaust note from the back sounded great and actually smelled cleaner than before. I changed the jets yesterday from 85/92 to 86/93 and the power valve from a 3.5 to a 6.5 unit. The engine didn't make much of a "clack" noise like I expected from a mechanical cam, but it sounded great. oil pressure was at 80 cold, dropping to 58-60 when up to temp. Fuel pressure was between 7-8 lbs.
At the 15 minute mark, the fuel pressure dropped fast to about 3 lbs. The engine started to stumble. The fuel filter was almost dry. I had jeff shut it down. We let it cool for 2 1/2 hours and got back to it.
During the second run, as before it ran great and smelled clean, but at 10 minutes the fuel pressure dropped again, requiring shutdown. The pump is a Holley mechanical, part # 12-440-11 rated at 110 GPH. The pushrod is the same length as others I had here... I checked before reassembly.
This pump has been fine before. I've driven at freeway speeds, 2600-3000 rpms and haven't had a fuel starvation problem before. At idle it stays between 7-8 lbs. The lines are not kinked and the clamps are tight.
The cam sounds nice at idle, but not as radical as I had expected. To refresh, it is a Lunati Solid 316/326 with 261* intake 271* exhaust with .558 INT .578 lift on a 106 C/L. I didn't get to drive the car because I am curious about whether the fuel pump will be a problem or not. Here come the questions:

* Is it possible that the bigger cam pulls more fuel to the point where I need a higher rated pump?
* Has anyone here had a similar fuel starvation problem during a break-in process?
* If so, do you have a suggestion for a reliable mechanical pump?
Thanks everyone. I may take it out for a drive tomorrow anyhow. I won't be driving at 3000 rpms for 15 minutes straight, so I hope that it doesn't conk out on me!
Posted By: 340SHORTY

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/30/13 08:01 AM

Hard to believe it smelled cleaner with larger jets.

Possibly the sock in the tank is clogging up..

Did you have good airflow to possibly prevent vapor lock.

Cams dont set the requirements for fuel..
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/30/13 08:38 AM

Quote:

Hard to believe it smelled cleaner with larger jets.
Wouldn't a bigger cam require bigger jets just to stay equal in terms of A/F ratios?
Possibly the sock in the tank is clogging up..
Well, the tank and sending unit were new in 2003. I've never had anything but clean looking fuel go through the filter.
Did you have good airflow to possibly prevent vapor lock.
Good question. I had a cheap "Target" 20" box fan in front of the grille.
Cams dont set the requirements for fuel.. [/quote)




Hmmmmm......
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/30/13 01:18 PM

the cam don't need bigger jets but 10% ethanol fuel requires 2 jet sizes
as ethanol fuel burns lean.

Sounds like a tank vent problem. Try running it with the gas cap off and if it does not run dry you are creating vacuum in the tank??

What car??
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/30/13 03:28 PM

Assuming you are sitting in the garage or driveway running it up for break in, are you getting enough airflow over everything? You could be heat soaking everything under the hood and boiling the fuel.
Posted By: Baxter61

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/30/13 05:13 PM

Are you sure its not just out of fuel?
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/30/13 05:43 PM

Vapor lock.
R.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/30/13 07:13 PM

Quote:

Assuming you are sitting in the garage or driveway running it up for break in, are you getting enough airflow over everything? You could be heat soaking everything under the hood and boiling the fuel.




Last night during my sleep, I thought of this very thing.
It was 94 degrees during the break-in. The car does not have a fan shroud. The helper fan I had wasn't very big. The clear fuel filter showed bubbling as the guage reading was falling.
I might try rerouting the line from the pump to the carb. Mine is run in a path similar to stock. It runs up from the pump between the alternator bracket and water pump housing, between the distributor cap and water pump housing then into the filter.
Does anyone ever slip a rubber hose over their steel line to reduce heat soak?
Posted By: JoesMopar

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/30/13 11:24 PM

Are you using aluminum heads and intake? I had this problem before, solved it with a small carb spacer/insulator.

I don't think you can just slip a hose over it...it will still hold heat. What you want to do is displace the heat to aid in cooling, such as the use of fins in and air cooled engine. I don't think routing is the problem. What did your water temp reach?
Posted By: Triggerfish

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/31/13 02:07 AM

Quote:

Vapor lock.
R.



I agree. I bet the fuel is boiling after a few minutes with only
a box fan to cool the radiator. How close is your fuel line to the
lower radiator hose & the intake runners? My Hemi did the same
thing as the Shaker kept the heat right where it shouldn't be.. &
the fuel lines got too hot to touch. Krppy ethanol laced fuel here
is a problem. Factory vapor separator w/ return line solved the
problem. On my 71 Power Wagon's 383 mag, I ran the fuel line &
filter too close to the bottom radiator hose & the heater hoses as
well on the top of the block. Vapor lock left me stranded twice.
Re-routed the lines & shielded the filter. Huge difference in temp.
The heat shield blew off the filter & the temp rose seconds later.
Maybe heat is boiling your fuel after 10 minutes. Are you running a return line?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/31/13 03:22 AM

The water temp guage read dead center, but I am not 100% sure of its accuracy. When out driving, it usually stayed left of center. Center looks to be about 170 degrees.


No return line on the carb. I'm starting to think I might need to install one.

Today I went for a drive. The timing was set to a "safe" 30 degrees total timing. It pinged on the first full throttle run, so I backed it off a few degrees. It still knocked, so I backed it off a 3rd time. Now it idled so low it stalled. I had to raise the idle by the set screw. It ran weird, really lazy from idle to 2500. At home I checked the total timing at 2900...20 degrees! The headers were glowing red too. Do you think the detonation could be caused by an excessively LEAN mixture? I just changed jets and the PV from 85/92 to 86/93 and from a 3.5 PV to a 6.5.
What the heck happened? Wouldn't a higher PV give a richer condition at part throttle?

I bought an AEM wideband guage kit last winter. I also had bungs welded into each collector. Maybe Sunday I'll install the guage and wire it. I had figured that there would be some tuning needed to optimize all of this.
Posted By: JoesMopar

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/31/13 07:01 AM

A lean mixture will burn hotter, and the more heat you introduce into the chamber the more volatile the fuel mixture becomes. Did you plug the vac advance when you checked the timing?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/31/13 08:28 AM

The vac avdance has been plugged for several months. I was trying different things to stop the detonation when I had the other cam in there.

Thinking about power valves: There appears to be several sizes and types. I see listings for Standard flow, High flow and 4 window. I put in a used 6.5 PV from a parts stash, but now I wonder if it is bad. Can a defective power valve open but not flow well?
Also, do Barry Grant Demon carbs use all the same bowl and metering block gaskets as Holley 4150 carbs? I know I'm reaching here but I'm trying to make sense of this. I used gaskets that came from the same stash as the power valve. They looked like all the various holes lined up with the old gaskets holes. I'm wondering if a passage is blocked off.
Posted By: YO7_A66

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/31/13 02:11 PM

""No return line on the carb. I'm starting to think I might need to install one.""
- With todays gas, this is almost a necessity with a street car.

""At the 15 minute mark, the fuel pressure dropped fast to about 3 lbs. The engine started to stumble. The fuel filter was almost dry.""
- It sure seems to be a fuel delivery issue. The existing pump may be big enough but maybe it has an issue.

""The car does not have a fan shroud.""
- Adding the shroud will help keep it cool once you get the fuel issue figured out.

If your headers are glowing red, and you have a fuel starvation/vapor lock issue, then the carb tuning at this time will not fix it. Concentrate on the fuel lines, fuel pump, fuel vent as mentioned.

-------------------------------------
""I bought an AEM wideband guage kit last winter. I also had bungs welded into each collector. Maybe Sunday I'll install the guage and wire it.""
- You will find that a wideband kit is an excellent tuning tool and carb-tuning learning tool. Once you have this installed, the tuning process should go smoother for you. You could then give us A/F numbers and since we are all on the other side of the keyboards from you, we can give you better suggestions on where to start if this is a carb problem during your tuning process.

""I see listings for Standard flow, High flow and 4 window.""
- What carb are you running? I would suggest using the style of PV that the carb manufacturer suggests. At 2600rpms, you should have enough vacuum to keep the PV closed.
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/31/13 09:54 PM

A few comments I have so far from what I have read:

You are causing more issues by retarding the timing so far! You need to advance the base timing back to at least 10*. Having the timing so far retarded will cause the glowing headers and hot condition among other things. 10* is a good place to start but you will probably end up running 14-16* base for a total of 36* or so but get to at least 10*!

As mentioned previously, this sounds like a vapor lock issues. One thing you may check (if you haven't already) is will the car start again after it dies (fuel pressure drop)? If the issue were vapor lock, most likely the car would not restart until it cooled off or at least would be a bear to get going again.

I had an issue similar to yours last year into this past winter where my car would run for 10-15 minutes beautifully, and then idle down and cut off. It turned out it was a partially failed fuel pump! One of the delivery valves within had a chunk missing which would eventually cause the pump to cavitate and lose pressure...like a cutoff almost.

Also for the record, glowing headers is not necessarily from a lean condition, but can also be caused by an overly rich condition! Pull one of the spark plug wires and run the engine and watch that cylinder begin to glow! Not your issue here (yours is timing) but wanted to point that out.

I know you said you had pinging, but you need to pull that timing back up! Remember to re-adjust your idle screws on the carburetor once you do that. I am thinking the pinging is caused by/related to the fuel delivery issue you have and/or you have cruddy fuel...

Good luck!
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 08/31/13 10:05 PM

Quote:

Thinking about power valves: There appears to be several sizes and types. I see listings for Standard flow, High flow and 4 window. I put in a used 6.5 PV from a parts stash, but now I wonder if it is bad. Can a defective power valve open but not flow well?




A mis-matched PV will usually result in a hesitation or stumble at part-throttle. Once you are at WOT, you will have lost enough vacuum where any PV will be open.

I highly doubt you have an engine that is pulling more fuel than a standard PV can deliver. If you want advice as to which one to use, you need to know what your idle vacuum is in gear. I had 6.5's in my 4150 but my engine responded better (crisper throttle response) from going to 8.5's. Let us know what your idle vacuum is in gear once you advance the timing back up!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/01/13 05:16 AM

Quote:

A few comments I have so far from what I have read:

You are causing more issues by retarding the timing so far! You need to advance the base timing back to at least 10*. Having the timing so far retarded will cause the glowing headers and hot condition among other things. 10* is a good place to start but you will probably end up running 14-16* base for a total of 36* or so but get to at least 10*!

As mentioned previously, this sounds like a vapor lock issues. One thing you may check (if you haven't already) is will the car start again after it dies (fuel pressure drop)? If the issue were vapor lock, most likely the car would not restart until it cooled off or at least would be a bear to get going again.


I know you said you had pinging, but you need to pull that timing back up! Remember to re-adjust your idle screws on the carburetor once you do that. I am thinking the pinging is caused by/related to the fuel delivery issue you have and/or you have cruddy fuel...

Good luck!




During yesterdays drive, I was retarding the timing as a means to see how far it needed to be backed off to stop full throttle detonation. I had no intention of keeping it at 20 degrees of total timing! I just wanted to get it home and get a timing light on it so I had a number to record.

It idled and cruised fine at 30 degrees total. It was only at 1/2 throttle and more that it made audible detonation.

Today I reset the timing to 33 degrees total and checked idle vacuum in gear....4 inches of vacuum? Really? This is with a 700 rpm in gear idle. I have not touched the idle mixture screws yet. Having the idle vacuum number lower than my power valve rating is obviously a problem.
I want to get the wideband guage in to have actual In my face evidence of what effect each change makes.
I have read the Mopar Action magazine articles on carburetor tuning. Rick suggests to jet the carb to achieve 14.7 A/F at cruise and 12.5 to 13.0 at WOT.
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/01/13 03:21 PM

Quote:

During yesterdays drive, I was retarding the timing as a means to see how far it needed to be backed off to stop full throttle detonation. I had no intention of keeping it at 20 degrees of total timing! I just wanted to get it home and get a timing light on it so I had a number to record.




I'm sure you didn't want to keep it this way but I wanted to point out the retarded timing was most likely causing the glowing headers so you didn't chase your tail on that one. :-)

Quote:

It idled and cruised fine at 30 degrees total. It was only at 1/2 throttle and more that it made audible detonation.




What was the base timing when it goes to 33* total? What we need to know is how far (and when) does the dizzy advance. Most distributors will advance 20* or so from the base. The issues you have with low vacuum could be timing related...as in still not enough base timing but you are advancing too far it seems. What is the calculated compression ratio? What kind of heads?

Quote:


Today I reset the timing to 33 degrees total and checked idle vacuum in gear....4 inches of vacuum? Really? This is with a 700 rpm in gear idle. I have not touched the idle mixture screws yet. Having the idle vacuum number lower than my power valve rating is obviously a problem.




So two suggestions on the low vacuum here: I still think you need to give us you base timing here (as opposed to total). This engine probably wants 15-18* of base timing and will generate more vacuum with it. Once this is done, you should adjust the idle mixture screws for maximum vacuum. And yes, the vacuum being lower that the PV rating will potentially cause an overly rich condition. I wouldn't worry about that yet until we can achieve a better vacuum reading at idle.

It sounds like if you do advance the base timing like I suggest, your total will go too far and you detonate. We really need to know how far your dizzy is advancing. If you need to rein in the total timing there is a plate you can buy from FBO here part J685 . Other than that you will have to weld the slots to limit the advance.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/01/13 05:25 PM

Sorry if I left out some details. I had the distributor worked on in 2005 to have an advance curve limited to 14 degrees. 17 initial gave me 31 total. THAT was the setting I ran for 3 seasons with the '509 cam. Summertime I had to back it off 1 degree and stay out off the secondaries to avoid detonation. Heads are Edelbrock aluminum. 2" TTI headers. 10.73 compression. It had an average of 189 cranking compression with the '509 cam. The numbers should be lower with the Lunati cam I have now.
This new cam has a later intake closing so I expected to have less of a chance of detonation.
When I wrote 33 total, that adds up to 19 initial.
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/01/13 07:49 PM

Quote:

Sorry if I left out some details. I had the distributor worked on in 2005 to have an advance curve limited to 14 degrees. 17 initial gave me 31 total. THAT was the setting I ran for 3 seasons with the '509 cam. Summertime I had to back it off 1 degree and stay out off the secondaries to avoid detonation. Heads are Edelbrock aluminum. 2" TTI headers. 10.73 compression. It had an average of 189 cranking compression with the '509 cam. The numbers should be lower with the Lunati cam I have now.
This new cam has a later intake closing so I expected to have less of a chance of detonation.
When I wrote 33 total, that adds up to 19 initial.




You shouldn't be pinging with only 33 total timing. There is something else at play here because your logic with the cam is sound as the higher lift + duration should help bleed off some of the compression.

FWIW, my build is loosely similar to yours as I have a Holley 4150 on a 10.4:1 499 stroker, same heads and even the same fuel pump! The big difference between our builds is that I have much less cam then you as in 484 lift or so. My motor idles like a stocker and pulls 16" vacuum in gear. Even with my wimpy cam, my motor won't start to ping until I hit over 36-38* total timing (18-20* base)! I run my motor at 17* base right now -- the first limiting factor being hard cranking on the starter motor if I go beyond.

FWIW, I had my engine tuned on a chassis dyno and I settled on 82/88 jets with initially a 6.5 PV but going to 8.5 helped out a bit on throttle response. This was with o2 sensors and it gives a nice flat A/F right around 13:1 at WOT (4000-5500 RPM range)...closer to the 14.7 at lower RPM's. Keep in mind this is with a 499. If anything, I think you may be jetted a bit rich.

How is the gas there? I think you either have crud for fuel and/or you are battling an overheating condition to make your motor so temperamental with the pinging. Maybe that or a vacuum leak but you would probably be able to detect that pretty easily. I suppose you could always limit the distributor's mech advance even further but that seems like a band-aid.

Maybe somebody who knows more about this that I can chime in. Let us know if you find anything.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/01/13 09:53 PM

Cj,
I am amazed that your engine doesn't rattle to death with that cam! The whole reason I switched to the bigger cam was to reduce the cranking compression and cylinder pressure. You must have ideal quench to pull that off! I wish I had gone that route!

The gas here is "Up to 10% Ethanol."
Some guys on the board suggest to UPsize the jets to account for the Ethanol. That is why I went from the 85/92s to 86/93.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 01:22 AM

*******UPDATE*******UPDATE*********UPDATE********

I got the wideband guage installed. I haven't jumped into tuning much yet, just wanted to pop in to post this:

Engine as is without touching anything: 9 1/2 inches idle vacuum at 1000, 4 in gear at 700-800. Idle mixture screws were only 1 1/4 turns out from being seated. IN GEAR the guage reads between 15.0 and off the guage which tops out at 18.0. When I revved it above idle, it pegged past 18.0!
I had a feeling it was lean!
I seated the idle mixture screws, then backed them out a full 2 turns. Idle vacuum went up to a solid 10+ with 5+ in gear. At idle, the guage reads between 14.0 and 15.0. It still pegs when I lean into the throttle.
Here is a thought: The primary side is running lean with the 86 jets. Being that I have 5.0" of vacuum and a 6.5 Power Valve, I think the PV may be covering for the UNDERjetted primaries. When I rev the engine, there is no additional fuel to keep the Air/Fuel ratio in check.
Sound right so far?
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 02:00 AM

If my motor has awesome quench, it's purely by chance. I wish I could claim to have planned it that way.

When I did my build, I was aiming for a street motor. Mine hits peak torque at a whopping 4200 RPM and peak HP at 5200 or so. Gobs of torque down low but I know I am leaving high end on the table but oh well...

Quote:

The primary side is running lean with the 86 jets. Being that I have 5.0" of vacuum and a 6.5 Power Valve, I think the PV may be covering for the UNDERjetted primaries. When I rev the engine, there is no additional fuel to keep the Air/Fuel ratio in check.
Sound right so far?





If your vacuum is consistently low in the range of 5 inches with a 6.5 PV, this would actually cause a rich condition as the PV would 'think' the engine was under a load and stay opened allowing more fuel. If you can't get much more than 5" in gear, I would recommend going back to the 3.5 PV.

Having a A/F ratio of 18+ is WAYYY lean and definitely going to be a contributor to the pinging issue. I am surprised that you aren't getting popping back through the carb with that kinda mix going in.

Since you did a cam swap and presumably pulled the intake...I might just double and triple check for a vacuum leak maybe. Going to bigger jets also is the common sense approach here but yours seem kind of big to me already but I guess every engine is different. My engine is also quite happy with the idle screws only 1-1/4 - 1-1/2 turns out.

I saw above where you mentioned the gaskets being BG. I would think they would work fine but maybe something is blocked off or something clogged with debris? I would say to get the blue Holley gaskets and swap those in to be sure.

Also, how is the fuel pressure when it leans out? Have you checked the floats to make sure they aren't too low?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 02:26 AM

Hello again!
I switched the 3.5 PV back in. The idle readings went down to 13.0 to 13.6. Kinda odd for it to richen up when I went to a smaller rated PV. I turned the idle mixture screws in to where they sit at 1 1/4 turns out again and the A/F reading came back to the 14.5-14.9 range.

NOW it goes off the charts lean when I put it into gear or hold the brake and ease on the throttle.

I thought I knew a little about carburetors, but tell me if i have this right:
* The IDLE circuit works when the primary throttle blades are closed. The main jets are NOT in play when in the idle circuit.
* The primary jets begin to function when the engine is put under a load and the primary throttle blades open.

If the above is true, would that mean that my primary jetting is still too lean? I understand that you are supposed to make only one change at a time which is why I only changed the power valve when I had the bowl off.
Looking at the gaskets I used, they actually are fine. They are a rubber like red gasket that came in a Demon rebuild kit I had.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 02:30 AM

Spray brake clean or carb cleaner all around and see where the vacuum leaks are??? I use silicone on both sides of my intake gasket.

where did you install the sensors for the O2???

Do you have another carb to try I think this one is wacked?? was it new
or jerry rigged by someone??

You probably need a faster.

Try holding you hand over cab to see if it idles better



Maybe ulta lean had been your problem all along.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 02:34 AM

Air bleeds too big! Internal leak in the carb??

gasket under carb leaking?? intake leaking. is the cap on the big vacuum line at the back of the carb???



Your idle rally falls off N t D maybe needs lighter advance springs??
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 02:37 AM

Air bleeds too big! Internal leak in the carb??

gasket under carb leaking?? intake leaking. is the cap on the big vacuum line at the back of the carb???
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 02:41 AM

Quote:

Spray brake clean or carb cleaner all around and see where the vacuum leaks are??? I use silicone on both sides of my intake gasket. I used "Gorilla Snot" gaskacinch.

where did you install the sensors for the O2??? I have a bung in each header collector, but only one sensor came in the guage kit.

Do you have another carb to try I think this one is wacked?? was it new
or jerry rigged by someone?? The carb ran fine before I pulled it off for the cam swap. I only changed the 4 jets and Power valve.

You probably need a faster. ?????

Try holding you hand over cab to see if it idles better Okay, but it seems to idle fine. Its when I put a load on it that the guage goes LEAN.



Maybe ulta lean had been your problem all along. It looks that way. I'm going to UPsize the primaries to 88s and report back



Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 02:48 AM

squiters working right I think that 6.5 power valve must have be defective.

This has me scratching my head.

There is a transition from idle circuit to jets that is where the power valve is supposed to come in.



You have the mufflers in I take it??
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 02:51 AM

Without mufflers you get pulse reversion and the O2 sensor wont read right needs 18 to 20 inches of pipe behind it!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 03:27 AM

I have a full exhaust, tailpipes and all!

The 88 jets now have the IN GEAR AT IDLE A/F at 16.0 to 16.8 but it still goes off the guage when I power brake up the rpms.
I haven't taken it on the road since yesterday. I figured that if it pinged on the light duty testing I'm doing here, it would be worse on the road.

I'm amazed to think I'd need primary jets bigger that 88s.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 03:54 AM

Quote:

Are you sure its not just out of fuel?







I've done that before!
Posted By: YO7_A66

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 04:02 AM

""The 88 jets now have the IN GEAR AT IDLE A/F at 16.0 to 16.8""

The jets do not control the In Gear Idle A/F. You are lean on the idle/transition circuits which consists of the Idle Air Bleeds and the Idle Feed Restrictors. The jets will affect the A/F further up the rpm range (cruising speeds)depending on how the carb is setup, not in gear at idle. You need to forget about the jets and concentrate on these two circuits before you burn up your motor. Once you get the idle circuit a little richer, then you need to concentrate on getting the off idle and low speed cruise richer too. Then once you get that under control, then revisit the main jetting.

""The gas here is "Up to 10% Ethanol.""
You may want to aim for around mid to high 13's at the in gear idle with E10.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 04:16 AM

" You are lean on the idle/transition circuits which consists of the Idle Air Bleeds and the Idle Feed Restrictors. The jets will affect the A/F further up the rpm range (cruising speeds)depending on how the carb is setup, not in gear at idle."


So, could the lean readings I get when pressing the gas be attributed to the accelerator pump shot being too weak? I have a package of new pump cams I could try.


I have a Holley book here but it appears to be written for the guy that already knows carburetors better than I do.

Am I to understand that any and all jet changes shouldn't affect the guage readings at idle in Park?

I wish that I had some specs of what others used for their jetting. Cj wrote that he had 84/88 and the A/F ratios were right where he wanted them. My engine has a bit more compression and a lot more cam, so isn't it fair to think I'd need bigger jets than he used?
Posted By: YO7_A66

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 04:21 AM

What carb are you using?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 04:33 AM

I have a Barry Grant 850 Vacuum secondaries. It has a 4 corner idle circuit. I currently have all 4 corners adjusted 1 3/4 turns out from seated. The fuel pressure is holding steady now that the engine is running cooler. I installed a fan shroud the other day.
Posted By: YO7_A66

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 04:33 AM

You need to start at the beginning on your tune. Since you have an auto, you want the most vacuum that you can achieve at your in gear idle rpms. With the brake applied (emergency brake or someone pushing on the brake), adjust your metering screws to obtain the best vacuum reading. Do no worry about the vacuum reading in N, you want the best vacuum reading in gear with the brake applied. You may need to work with your initial timing to get this vacuum reading up.
Once you have your in gear idle vacuum reading at it highest, look at the A/F reading. This might be as rich as the 13's. After you get this set, then take it for a drive and watch the A/F readings at light throttle and cruising up to around 55-60 or so. Write down the A/F readings at the following:
In gear idle (with brake) A/F=
30mph A/F=
40mph A/F=
50mph A/F=
60mph A/F=
70mph (if you drive at this speed) A/F=
(If you are anything leaner than 15, then take it easy on the throttle so you don't hurt it!)

Once you take note of the A/F readings at these speeds, then you will be able to watch what happens at these same speeds when you make a tuning change in the future. Taking notes is the best way to keep track of your changes.
Posted By: YO7_A66

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 04:35 AM

Does this carb have screw in bleeds or are they just holes?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 05:19 AM

Quote:

Does this carb have screw in bleeds or are they just holes?




Sorry, I'm not sure what this means.
If you mean the idle mixture screws on the sides of the metering blocks, there are 4. One on each side of each metering block.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 05:32 AM

Make sure you have no leaks UPSTREAM of the sensor. Any header tubes that might be leaking or flange gasket leaks will suck in air and give you a lean reading.

I don't recall your cam specs but if it has a lot of overlap, exhaust reversion will cause random misfires (that choppy idle sound)and the O2 sensor will read lean even if it is actually rich. Misfire = no oxygen was used so it get pumped out past the sensor which does its job and reads it.

Get the engine to sound happy first and then use the readings to tell you what changes to make. They will not likely be where you expect when you are done at least as far as idle and cruise go.

Kevin
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 06:02 AM

Quote:

Make sure you have no leaks UPSTREAM of the sensor. Any header tubes that might be leaking or flange gasket leaks will suck in air and give you a lean reading.

I don't recall your cam specs but if it has a lot of overlap, exhaust reversion will cause random misfires (that choppy idle sound)and the O2 sensor will read lean even if it is actually rich. Misfire = no oxygen was used so it get pumped out past the sensor which does its job and reads it.

Get the engine to sound happy first and then use the readings to tell you what changes to make. They will not likely be where you expect when you are done at least as far as idle and cruise go.

Kevin




Good points, Kevin.
There are no detectable exhaust leaks.
Cam overlap? Oh yeah! Plenty of it. I didn't consider that.

I am curious as to what jets other guys are running in similar engines. When I switched from #86 to #88 primary jets, My IN GEAR idling readings fattened up from over 17 to around 15.8 to 16.0+ so I wonder if it will improve further with #89 or #90 jets. That seems pretty huge though.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 07:04 AM

As stated, this Barry Grant 850 came with #85 primary jets, #93 secondary jets and a 6.5 Power valve. I figured that these were virtual copies of the Holley line with a fancier finish.

I was looking on the Summit site and saw that the Holley Street Avenger 870 comes with #78 primaries, #82 secondaries and a 4.5 PV:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-81870?seid=srese1&gclid=COP_-4CDrLkCFYU5Qgod8VsAzA

Huh? A carb with a higher CFM rating has smaller jets and power valve?
Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 12:04 PM

What we have here is a motor that defies any known remedy, take the cam, put it in straight up, ,Also find a friend known working carb put it on see if it does the job!
if this doesn't cure it nothing will
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 12:54 PM

It sounds like you are not a jet change away or the turning of a idle screw away from this thing running right. You might consider the following:

1) Tell everyone again what you have.
2) Reminded everyone what you have changed in the last few months and why.
3) Describe the symptoms that you are trying to improve.

When you are trouble shooting keep all of the symptoms in mind but methodically and systematically work on one at a time. They may, or may not have the same root cause.

Everyone here is trying to help, but remember, we're not there and we're sort of throwing things out there to see what sticks. Furthermore, they are opinions, and some are diametrically opposed and not correct. You'll need to sift through that and put some question marks up in your mind.

Finally, if IIRC, you have a huge cam. A difficult place to start for a guy that does not understand how a carb works. I would actually suggest that maybe take a break from 10 posts per day on multiple forums, and instead read and understand how a carb works.

Posted By: YO7_A66

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 01:30 PM

""Sorry, I'm not sure what this means.""

No problem. The picture shows the "air bleeds" (8 goldish in color with the flat screw driver slot. 4 in the front and 4 in the back).

The reason that I am asking about the carb is because we know that you are working with a BG 850-VAC unit, but there are different levels. Some may have or some may not have the "screw in" air bleeds which are much easier to tune.

Attached picture 7836143-DSC01721.JPG
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 02:54 PM

I would be trying a differenet carb.

Did you try holding you hands over the front two barrels like a chock??

Did you spray looking for vacuum leaks?

Way lean may have been you detonation problem all along

I'd be trying a different carb
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 03:46 PM

How do you know its not the intake?, hose leak, bad PCV valve.

Although, like you and Kevin have said....look for a leak., and make sure the mining isn't moving around between in-gear and neutral idle speeds, throttle plate position, then IFR, based on what I remember on how he got here without re-reading anything. But, I'm having a hard time keeping track.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 04:31 PM

Quote:

How do you know its not the intake?, hose leak, bad PCV valve.

Although, like you and Kevin have said....look for a leak., and make sure the mining isn't moving around between in-gear and neutral idle speeds, throttle plate position, then IFR, based on what I remember on how he got here without re-reading anything. But, I'm having a hard time keeping track.




Well I don't he has to check everything! But GB carbs have a real hit and miss reputation???

Try another carb and if it's the same it's something else.

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 07:20 PM

Quote:

It sounds like you are not a jet change away or the turning of a idle screw away from this thing running right. You might consider the following:

1) Tell everyone again what you have.
2) Reminded everyone what you have changed in the last few months and why.
3) Describe the symptoms that you are trying to improve.






I want to thank everyone that has attempted to help. I know that it can be difficult to know what is going on past the keyboard and monitor. Its even worse when some details get left out.

The 440/493 made decent power and idled well with the previous combo. It is a 440 block .030 over with flat tops, a 4.15 stroke crank and Edelbrock aluminum heads, 84cc UNported. 2" TTI headers and a 2 1/2" exhaust system. Mopar Performance electronic ignition with a chrome ECU. Distributor has been modified to be limited to 14 degrees of advance. I used to set it at 16-17 degrees with it advancing to 30-31 by 2600-2800 rpms. MP 292/509 cam with stock 1.5 rocker arms. BG Demon 850 with #85/93 jets and a 3.5 PV. In gear idle vacuum was 8-9". It detonated in cool weather but was worse in warm weather. I tried mixing in some 110 octane leaded fuel and ALL of the detonation was gone. On a 50/50 mix of 110 and 91, it did not knock either. I didn't want to rely on race octane to drive the car, so I started looking for ways to make the engine less likely to detonate. I could have pulled the engine and installed dished pistons, but many people thought that the '509 cam was too small for an engine with nearly 500 inches. A bigger cam with a later intake closing event was suggested many times. Before any cam swap was done, I switched to 1.6 rocker arms, thinking the additional lift might help. It reduced the cranking compression a few points, but I was still between 185 and 191 psi.
I went with a Lunati solid flat tappet with 261* INT, 271* EXH @ .050, .556/.578 lift and a 108 LSA. The intake closing was figured to be 11 degrees later than the 509 cam. I degreed the cam in at the 106 centerline according to the cam card. While the carb was on the bench, I changed the jets and PV from #85/93 to #86/94 and from 3.5 to 6.5. I set the timing to a conservative number for the break in: 16 initial, 30 total with NO vacuum advance. The engine ran warm on cam break in and started to boil the fuel at 15 minutes. After cooling down, I ran it again until the fuel boiled again. I didn't know at the time that it was running extremely lean, making the engine run hotter than it should. I haven't used a fan shroud on the car in the 12 years of running big blocks but I figured it was time. I fabbed up some brackets and mounted one.
During a test drive, the car detonated at anything over 1/2 throttle. I was confused because the timing was set where it should be fine. For testing purposes, I backed it off until it wouldn't ping at WOT. this turned out to be at 6 initial and 20 degrees total. I knew that something was wrong when it knocked at more than that. I suspected a lean condition.
Yesterday I installed an AEM wideband UEGO Air/Fuel sensor and guage. I Think it reads from 11.0 to 17.0. I made no adjustments to the carb but DID reset the timing to 19/33. The vacuum in Park at 1100 rpms was around 9.5 and the IN GEAR @ 800 # was about 4.5". I backed out the idle mixture screws to a full 2 turns out from bottom. manifold vacuum went to 10+ in park and 5 in gear. The guage moved to 14.5+/-both in Park and in gear. When I eased into the gas while in gear, the guage went beyond 17.0 lean. I thought that since my vacuum reading was BELOW the # on the Power Valve, I switched to a 3.5 PV.
THIS didn't change anything while in Park but now it would go 17.0+ when in gear.
I thought that a jet change would help so I switched to #88 primary jets. Now the in gear idle came back down to 16.0+/-. It still went past 17.0 when I eased into the throttle.
I have not driven the car with the guage in place to see how it is on the street. I HAVE sprayed Brakleen all around the base of the carb, the various vacuum ports, the intake ports and so far I have found no vacuum leaks. I plan to have a helper watch the guage as I try again. If the guage bumps at any time, maybe I'll find a tiny leak somewhere.
I only have two square bore carbs here I can test with, a Holley 600 and a 750. I have ThermoQuads too, though the adapter would make it impossible to close the hood with an air cleaner on.

For the record, I do have a decent understanding of the workings of a carburetor. Its just that I have been so frustrated lately I have been forgetting things.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 08:50 PM

Okay. Here is a shorter version of what you said:

Quote:

The 440/493 made decent power and idled well with the previous combo. It was:

•500” RB
•Edelbrock aluminum heads, unported
•2" TTI headers and a 2 1/2" exhaust system
•MP electronic ignition/ chrome ECU/ 14 degrees of total advance.
•I used to set it at 16-17 degrees with it advancing to 30-31 by 2600-2800 rpms.
•MP 292/509 cam with stock 1.5 rocker arms/switched to 1.6 adjustables before cam switch.
•BG Demon 850 with #85/93 jets and a 3.5 PV.
•In gear idle vacuum was 8-9".

It detonated in cool weather but was worse in warm weather. I tried mixing in some 110 octane leaded fuel and ALL of the detonation was gone. On a 50/50 mix of 110 and 91, it did not knock either. I decided on a bigger cam with a later intake closing to reduce cylinder pressure.


Changes:
•Lunati solid flat tappet with 261* INT, 271* EXH @ .050, .556/.578 lift and a 108 LSA. The intake closing was figured to be 11 degrees later than the 509 cam.
•changed the jets and PV from #85/93 to #86/94 and from 3.5 to 6.5


I degreed the cam in at the 106 centerline according to the cam card. I set the timing to a conservative number for the break in: 16 initial, 30 total with NO vacuum advance. The engine ran warm on cam break in and started to boil the fuel at 15 minutes. After cooling down, I ran it again until the fuel boiled again.

During a test drive, the car detonated at anything over 1/2 throttle. I was confused because the timing was set where it should be fine. For testing purposes, I backed it off until it wouldn't ping at WOT. this turned out to be at 6 initial and 20 degrees total. I made no adjustments to the carb but DID reset the timing to 19/33.

The vacuum in Park at 1100 rpms was around 9.5 and the IN GEAR @ 800 # was about 4.5". I backed out the idle mixture screws to a full 2 turns out from bottom. manifold vacuum went to 10+ in park and 5 in gear. The A/F gauge moved to 14.5+/-both in Park and in gear. When I eased into the gas while in gear, the guage went beyond 17.0 lean. I thought that since my vacuum reading was BELOW the # on the Power Valve, I switched to a 3.5 PV.

THIS didn't change anything while in Park but now it would go 17.0+ when in gear.
I thought that a jet change would help so I switched to #88 primary jets. Now the in gear idle came back down to 16.0+/-. It still went past 17.0 when I eased into the throttle.
I have not driven the car with the A/F guage in place to see how it is on the street. I HAVE sprayed Brakleen all around the base of the carb, the various vacuum ports, the intake ports and so far I have found no vacuum leaks. I plan to have a helper watch the guage as I try again. If the guage bumps at any time, maybe I'll find a tiny leak somewhere.
I only have two square bore carbs here I can test with, a Holley 600 and a 750.






Here are a couple of my take-aways:
1) the Carb idled okay before, so it is probably not broken.
2) The carbs primary circuit may have been lean in the past causing your detonation.
3) If you did not have a fuel pressure gauge before, It too could have caused a lean condition causing ping if it were too low.
4)at 190 psi, you were on the edge but should be doable w/ pump gas.
5)Some Brakleen are not flammable, use a carburetor cleaner,


Try these and report back:

Choke the carb and see if engine rpm picks-up.
Check ignition timing in neutral and in gear.

Also, What torque converter do you have? The in gear rpm might need to be set higher than 800 rpm with the new cam
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 09:33 PM

Quote:

Okay. Here is a shorter version of what you said:

Quote:




Here are a couple of my take-aways:
1) the Carb idled okay before, so it is probably not broken.
2) The carbs primary circuit may have been lean in the past causing your detonation.
3) If you did not have a fuel pressure gauge before, It too could have caused a lean condition causing ping if it were too low.
4)at 190 psi, you were on the edge but should be doable w/ pump gas.
5)Some Brakleen are not flammable, use a carburetor cleaner,


Try these and report back:

Choke the carb and see if engine rpm picks-up.
Check ignition timing in neutral and in gear.

Also, What torque converter do you have? The in gear rpm might need to be set higher than 800 rpm with the new cam




Your summary is better than mine and 100% accurate!
* I have no choke on the carb, but when I put my hands over the throat at idle, it changes nothing. I sprayed Ether and Brakleen (GREEN can) down the throat, the idle speed does increase.
* Ive had a guage in the fuel line since installing this carb. It is pretty consistant at 6 psi at idle, dropping only slightly during sustained 3000+ rpms in Park.
* I have not checked cranking PSI since the cam swap. It is probably lower than the 190 number now.
* I will try checking the timing when shifting from park to drive.
* I am going to have Jeff watch the guage as I spray carb cleaner around everything again.
* The torque converter is a 9 3/4" unit with a stall of just under 3000.
I just came back from the store with some carb gaskets and some Brake cleaner. I probably have some carb cleaner here I can try. I also have small Propane and Mapp gas cylinders I could use.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 10:02 PM

* but when I put my hands over the throat at idle, it changes nothing. This means that you are not doing it correctly, either it will rise in rpm slightly, then die (vacuum leak), or it will instantly die like turning off the key (no vacuum leak). Do it again until it dies. I sprayed Ether and Brakleen (GREEN can) down the throat, the idle speed does increase.

* Ive had a guage in the fuel line since installing this carb. It is pretty consistant at 6 psi at idle, dropping only slightly during sustained 3000+ rpms in Park. Okay. But to be clear, any fuel pressure in neutral is probably enough. For eliminating any possible lean at WOT fuel pressure needs to be about 4 psi at your power level and std inlet orifice.

* I have not checked cranking PSI since the cam swap. It is probably lower than the 190 number now. Put this on your list of things to do

* I will try ????I don't understand. Friend in the car-foot on brake. You get a measure of the timing in neutral, then have him put it in gear at idle, and measure again. Don't do anything else until you have done these two things checking the timing when shifting from park to drive.

* I am going to have Jeff watch the guage Be clear, what gauge? Fuel pressure?, gas gauge, vacuum gauge. if you mean air to fuel ratio, A/R will work, as I spray carb cleaner around everything again. Not sure what you learn from this

* The torque converter is a 9 3/4" unit with a stall of just under 3000. The smart torque converter guys need to comment here. It sounds possibly too tight for the in-gear idle you might need for that cam, I don't know. The guys with big cam experience sould know what is a reasonable in-gear idle rpm should be. What is the advertised durations on that cam?

I just came back from the store with some carb gaskets and some Brake cleaner. I probably have some carb cleaner here I can try. I also have small Propane and Mapp gas cylinders I could use.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/02/13 11:49 PM

More Updates:

* The timing jumps a bit while the engine is running, fluctuating about 3 degrees. I average the sweep to the middle. When at idle, it is at 19. When shifted into gear, the timing stays the same.
* The carb HAD a choke, but I removed it along with all of the associated linkage. Putting my hands over the air horn does not form an effective seal.
* I had Jeff in the car as I sprayed Brakleen around all possible vacuum entry points. I had him watch the Air/Fuel guage. The only time the guage responded was when I sprayed into the carb throat. No leaks at the baseplate, vacuum fittings, PCV, throttle shafts or anywhere along the intake ports.
********************************************************************
I put on a stock Holley 750 VS from another car. The vacuum numbers came up a bit. I got 11.5" in Park @ 1100 rpm and almost 7.0 in gear @ 850.
The A/F numbers with the 750 impressed me.
Idle: 13.8 to 14.2
In gear: 14.2 to 14.6
In gear w/pwr brake: 13.8 to 14.5.

This at least tells me that the 750 is in the range of tuning. The 850 keeps going totally lean when any load is applied off idle.

The 1000-1100 idle is set where it was before the cam swap. I only set it back there to have a baseline. When put into gear, The car doesn't try to pull away at that speed. I can raise it even higher if need be. I thought that the idle speed is supposed to be set as low as possible while not being lazy to respond. If it idled at 1500 or more, it seems like it would "diesel" on shutdown.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 02:06 AM

I'm getting closer!

I put #90 primary jets in the 850. I also sprayed carb cleaner through the air bleeds. At first the spray just blew around the bleed hole, but after a few seconds it sputtered through the idle slots. Of the 8 air bleeds, the inners on each corner didn't spray through the transfer slots but the outers did. None of them looked plugged up, but after a few seconds, the outer 4 flowed nicely. I guess the inners go inside the metering block circuits?

With the bigger jets and CLEANER air bleeds, the A/F ratios are MUCH better.
Idle in park: 13.0 to 13.8
Idle in gear: 12.8 to 13.5
In gear Pwr brake 12.0 to 12.9.

Looks like I might be able to make this carburetor work with more tuning!
Posted By: a12superbee

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 06:44 AM

This A/F meter/gauge thing looks to be the shizzle when it comes to carb tuning.
Hard to believe a decade ago the idea of home use would have been pure fantasy. Now I want one.
Good job on getting within striking range.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 06:47 AM

Thanks. If I recall, the AEM setup was around $300 +/-.
Imagine how long it would take to diagnose the problems I had. The data provided by a guage is actual "in your face" evidence of what is happening. The cheapest dyno guy in town wants $90 per hour, too.
Posted By: YO7_A66

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 12:45 PM

""With the bigger jets and CLEANER air bleeds, the A/F ratios are MUCH better.
Idle in park: 13.0 to 13.8
Idle in gear: 12.8 to 13.5
In gear Pwr brake 12.0 to 12.9.""

- That is a much better starting point. Now you can take it for a drive and take note of your A/F readings at 30mph/40mph/50mph/60mph or what ever you choose. These A/F readings will help you tune your transition and your jetting for cruising.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 02:44 PM

Now put a set of lighter advance springs in the dizzy will help in gear idle a lot!

glad you making headway told you that carb was whack?

Posted By: Von

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 04:01 PM

Didnt read every post word for word...but I didnt see any reference to getting the timing right before making all of these carb changes??

You have to get the initial timing right or everything else is pissin in the wind.

Have you checked put the vacuum gauge on it at idle and cranked more initial in it until it stops making more vaccuum? The motor will tell you how much it wants for initial.

Im sure that cam will be in the mid 20s to 30s at idle. Then you will have to limit the total to 34-36ish.

Get the timing right, then start playin with the carb.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 06:53 PM

Quote:



You have to get the initial timing right or everything else is pissin in the wind.

Have you checked put the vacuum gauge on it at idle and cranked more initial in it until it stops making more vaccuum? The motor will tell you how much it wants for initial.

Im sure that cam will be in the mid 20s to 30s at idle. Then you will have to limit the total to 34-36ish.

Get the timing right, then start playin with the carb.




Interesting....
I did NOT try advancing the timing at idle any more than I already have. Are you saying that instead of having a 14 degree advance where I set initial at 19 and the total ends up at 33, I should narrow up the total curve? In other terms, an initial of mid 20s with an "all in" of say mid 30s? Wouldn't this make the engine very hard to start?
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 07:17 PM

Just a faster curve on the 14 advance with lighter springs will hold it off the stop so say idling in gear at 28 (so 9 mechanical advance in) with another 5 mechanical advance to go as rpm comes up.

without driving you can test how it will respond to more in gear idle advance by advancing it till you have 28 in gear and fiddle with idle see how it likes it I know this would be 42 total but at this point your not driving just finding a nice idle.

Then you tailor you advance springs to get it to idle at that advance but still have your 33 to 36 total.


Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 07:24 PM

I used to run 30 degrees in the dizzy with light springs so all in by 1200 rpm and most in by my 1100 idle with a bigger cam than yours. (or similar cam smaller motor)

I don't drive on the street any more and have a MSD with the 25 stop in light mopar springs advance is all in at my 1200 idle. basically I use advance for ease of starting.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 07:26 PM

Just a faster curve with lighter springs will hold it off the stop so say idling in gear at 28 (so 9 mechanical advance in) with another 5 mechanical advance to go as rpm comes up.

without driving you can test how it will respond to more in gear idle advance by advancing it till you have 28 in gear and fiddle with idle see how it likes it I know this would be 42 total but at this point your not driving just finding a nice idle.

Then you tailor you advance springs to get it to idle at that advance but still have your 33 to 36 total.


Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 07:35 PM

Dodgem:
Trying to wrap my head around this.... With the distributor at rest, the springs relaxed, your theoretical timing is lower at cranking..... but the light springs stretch once the engine fires they advance some, then you have another "stage" of advance?
Is this done by using a light spring on one weight and a heavy one on the other?
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 08:09 PM

At present you may (probably) not getting any advance at idle just what you set to. It takes more RPM's to start stretching the stiff springs to get some of that 14 mechanical advance.

But put lighter springs in and idle rpm should be enough to allow some stretch and some mechanical advance. so say if you put the lightest springs in that came with your dizzy 950 rpm may allow dizzy to advance lets say 8 deg so that will give you 19 + 8 = 27 advance at 950 instead of it sitting at 19 total in both cases is still 33.

so one light spring may do it maybe needs too it's trial and error.

But as i said you can at idle turn dizzy till you get say 27 then mess with idle if it's good then tailor your advance springs to get you there after turning dizzy back to where it was.

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 08:50 PM

Thanks, Dodgem.

I just drove the car after putting the air cleaner on. It was running PIG rich in gear! It was dropping in the 11.0 range but it was still pinging.
Huh?
I expected the addition of the air cleaner to richen it up some, but now it looks like I'll have to go back at least 4 jet sizes to get close.
I'm amazed though that it still pinged. I would think that an over-rich condition would have stopped that by a longshot.
I'm going to pull a plug and check the cranking compression. Before the cam swap, I was at 185-192. This cam has a later intake closing, so I really expected it to reduce cylinder pressure so it would NOT detonate given the same tune as with the '509 cam.
Posted By: YO7_A66

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 09:02 PM

""It was running PIG rich in gear!""
On your next drive, after the engine is up to running temp, find a quiet parking spot and apply your emergency brake (or have a friend apply the brake) with the tranny in D. Then spend some time tuning your metering screws to achieve the highest vacuum reading while readjusting your idle after each adjustment (if needed). You should be able to tune it in D (13's or so) if you have enough initial timing.

"" It was dropping in the 11.0 range but it was still pinging.""
Was it pinging while showing 11.0 or did it ping under accel before it hit 11.0?

What was your leanest reading while you were out driving?
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/03/13 10:54 PM

Quote:

Thanks, Dodgem.

I just drove the car after putting the air cleaner on. It was running PIG rich in gear! It was dropping in the 11.0 range but it was still pinging.
Huh?
I expected the addition of the air cleaner to richen it up some, but now it looks like I'll have to go back at least 4 jet sizes to get close.
I'm amazed though that it still pinged. I would think that an over-rich condition would have stopped that by a longshot.
I'm going to pull a plug and check the cranking compression. Before the cam swap, I was at 185-192. This cam has a later intake closing, so I really expected it to reduce cylinder pressure so it would NOT detonate given the same tune as with the '509 cam.




I am not surprised that you may need to jet down some as you are 4 jet sizes over what I am running on my 500 stroker. However, I wouldn't worry too much about the carburetor tuning yet.

As mentioned before, you need to get your base timing down. I would give it as much base timing as possible before you start getting the kick back on the starter and then back off a degree or two. This should also yield a higher vacuum reading at idle which you will want to maximize. Once you do that, you then need to set the idle screws (also for max vacuum). Then set curb idle...probably relatively high for the cam you have...maybe 900-1100 RPM's or so?

Next you can deal with the jets and use your sensor to nail down the optimum size(s) to use. My dyno guy seemed to like to see around 13 or so under WOT...closer to 14-14.5 under lighter load.

I am guessing that you may still have the pinging problem and this may take some experimenting to fix. You may have some cooling issues from earlier posts...fix them so the engine is running <195* or so. You should be able to get that motor to advance to 34* or so without pinging...if not you may need to think about better fuel. Yeah you can dial back the total timing to keep it under 30* but this seems to be a band-aid and not a true 'fix'. You may find you will need to blend in some race fuel to get her happy. :-(

Either way, I wouldn't want to dial the timing way back which affects vacuum and how well the engine runs just to avoid the pinging if a gallon or two of race fuel per tank might fix ya!

Otherwise, you ma look into a thicker head gasket and see if you can shave a little off the compression but I think the engine temperatures being kept in check will go a long way here.

Does the motor still die after 15 minutes or is that been fixed? You had some other issues I seem to recall....
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 01:43 AM

The closer I get, the further away I am.

Earlier I wrote that after the cleaning of the air bleeds and the UPjetting to #90 primaries, I was running waaay rich. It still pinged. I didn't run it to full throttle to see the A/F readings because of the pinging. It wasn't rattling nearly as bad as it has in the past, but it was there.
I came back and went back to the #88 jets. The A/F numbers leaned out a bit but it was still rich under load around 12.5 to 13.5. It still pinged as well.
The opinions I get on this brand of carburetor range from either guys with no comment to guys saying they are junk. Almost everyone that complained about them says they picked up speed and reliability with a Holley.
Tomorrow I'll put my 750 back on for a road test. If it still runs rich or detonates with this totally stock, UNmodified carb, I'll have to look elsewhere for the problem. I suspect that the Demon is a POS though. After I put in the #88 jets, the idle in Park A/F numbers really leaned out and the IN GEAR idling almost went full lean past 17.0. Its as if I am dancing around a goal that the carb isn't equipped to meet.

Oh, regarding RACE gas:
The entire point of changing to this cam was to achieve a later intake closing, reduce cylinder pressure and increase detonation resistance. Running race gas shouldn't be necessary. I checked one cylinders compression today and gor a 173 reading. That hole showed 188 with the 509 cam.
Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 06:40 PM

What ever is going on carb will normaly run very close to factory sets on just about any motor,
trying to over come high comression yet run reg cheapo gas is usaually a run at insanity at best,
1 has to either lower the compression or run at race sttings
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 07:39 PM

At 173 cranking you should be able to run 91 with a good working carb.

I've been as high as 210 on 94 sunoco.

what is your stall speed.

If all else fails do a compression check on all 8?

jet that 750 up 2 or 3 sizes to make up for the 10% ethanol.
Posted By: RSNOMO

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 07:57 PM

Quote:



Oh, regarding RACE gas:
The entire point of changing to this cam was to achieve a later intake closing, reduce cylinder pressure and increase detonation resistance. Running race gas shouldn't be necessary.




Beyond all that you've been through here...

Have you tried a good shot of 110???
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 08:09 PM

I ran some 110 leaded with the 509 cam setup. It ran fine with zero detonation. The thing is, a few years back, it ran fine on 91 with the same timing. Maybe some of that is due to the ethanol in the fuel, but I wonder if most lies in this carburetor.

Converter stall speed? Sorta hard to tell. Its a 9 3/4" unit that was built to be a 3000 stall. I didn't like the lazy way it felt so I had the builder cut it open and change a few parts inside. It stalls lower than that now.
When I'm stationary in gear holding the brake, it will start spinning the tires on concrete at around 2200 or so. Asphalt would probably be higher.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 10:18 PM

That's tight the tighter the stall the sooner the engine loads.
Posted By: RSNOMO

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 10:18 PM

I'm not questioning you here, but, I don't know how...

I've got a 440 with a 484 that doesn't run for scat unless I spike it...

Compression is borderline...Six-Pack piston under a 452 head with a steel gasket...

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 10:23 PM

I wish I had some good news here. I know that many members have chimed in trying to help.
The 750 made the engine idle much smoother. I was actually able to get it to idle down to 600 in gear without stalling. I wasn't able to do that with the 850 because below 700, it loped around and felt ready to stall.
The A/F numbers looked decent. Idle was in the 14.0 to 14.5 range and while sitting at a stoplight, it was in the 13.8 to 14.2 range. I was amazed at how docile the engine seemed. Part throttle A/F was just below 12.5 and no higher than 13.4, so that seemed within range.
It still detonated at 3/4 throttle and above. I even reset the timing to 17 initial and 31 total before the drive.
Everything that I have tried since the cam swap has resulted in detonation. Bigger jets, smaller jets. Bigger PVs, smaller ones. Different timing settings. Different distributors. A different carburetor. Different weather outside. Cool engine, warm engine. The only time it ran without spark knock was when I had the timing set to 6 initial and 20 total. That was only a test to assess things. I would never expect this engine to run right at that setting.
Currently, I am out of ideas.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 10:28 PM

does it do it if you run it up to 4000 then feed her some power??
Posted By: mickm

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 10:32 PM

don't know if this has been covered before, but are you sure it is detonation? maybe an exhaust leak? just throwing things out, but i guess you said it did go away with the retarded timing.

maybe it has more compression than you think? even with the new cam bleeding some of that off, it isn't enough?

don't know... i know comparing a hemi and a wedge isn't a real comparison, but i'm around 10.25-10.4:1, 210 psi hot cranking, and i have yet to hear the thing ping.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 11:10 PM

Did you ever check the fuel pressure under WOT? What spark plug are you using?
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 11:18 PM

I agree here. I think with a 10.7:1 compression, you will have your work cut out for you to run this on pump gas...especially with the ethanol swill we have available today. Even with the aluminum heads, I think you are going to have a temperamental engine if you don't spike it with some race fuel. It's also possible maybe your compression ratio is a tad higher than you calculated.

The rule of thumb I hear is 9.5:1 max for iron heads and add a point for aluminum heads so you are a little past the border. I am sure somebody here will chime in that they run more than that on pump gas but every engine build is different. I agree with your logic on the cam choice but maybe not enough cam to bleed it all off?

If this were my motor, I would start with a head gasket change. I used the thick FelPro's on my build (.055" compressed) which helped bring my calculated compression down almost .2 points from the thin gaskets. With thinner gaskets (.039"), I would have been closer to a 10.6:1 which kind of made me worry about being in the same boat as you.

If the AF ratio isn't way lean @ WOT, then you really have two more things to try and fix here. Verify the engine is NOT running hot and/or lower the compression.

I would try to avoid retarding the timing any more than 31* total and that is too retarded in my opinion.

You will get there and your car will burn rubber (reliably) before you know it!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 11:22 PM

I haven't tried holding it at 4000 then flooring it. I tried 3000 because I figured every bit of advance should be in at that point.

I have no way to test WOT fuel pressure unless I install a remote guage. I'm running Champion RC9YC plugs. The Edelbrock instructions suggested RC12YCs and when i used those, it dieseled after shutdown. The 9s stopped that. When I tested the cranking compression in cylinder #6, I looked at the plug. It wasn't directly after a hard WOT run so the appearance may not help. It was the amber/tan color with no speckling or spots.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 11:41 PM

175 psi, 10.7:1, aluminum head, big cam, it should run on pump gas.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/04/13 11:49 PM

I have no way to test WOT fuel pressure unless I install a remote guage. correct. Get the correct tubing and attach it to a wiper blade or something so you can see it while driving. Of the 30 things you done in the last 3 days, this will be easy

The "9" plug should be good for your CR, you could try an 8, or a cooler NGK, but probably no help.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/05/13 02:59 AM

BSB, are you telling me that while the A/F ratio may look good on the guage, fuel pressure at WOT make a difference?
I'm hesitant to hold it at WOT because of the detonation. Each time I road test it, I only run it 2 seconds maximum when I hear it knocking.

I put the #86 jets back in the primaries of the 850. I still have the 3.5 PV in there along with #94 secondary jets. It actually idles better than it has in quite some time. It idles in gear for stoplights almost as smooth as it did with the 750. A/F ratios were also better than they have been, though a bit rich.
Of course it still knocked.
I am so confused by this. I even came home and poured in 5 gallons of 100 octane unleaded I bought as a last resort. I still had about 5 gallons of 91 in the tank, so I have to guess the mix would result in a 95 to 95 1/2 octane rating. It ran exactly the same. During the first 4 miles I drove easy, thinking I'd need to use up the 91 octane in the fuel line and carb. Once I hammered it, it knocked at the same point it had before. The timing is at 17/31.

I'm curious about the fuel pressure @ WOT theory. If I'm doing 2500 rpms at 55 and floor it, it knocks. If I sit idling at a stoplight then floor it, it detonates even with the tires blazing. I would think that the fuel bowls are pretty full if I'm just idling. I don't mean to discount anyones ideas. I am just trying to understand.
Speculation time again:
*What are the chances of the cam having some manufacturing defect? With adjustable valvetrain, each rocker arm gets adjusted to spec. *What if one or more lobes were ground wrong? I only tested cranking compression on one cylinder. Tomorrow I'll check them all.
*Another idea: I degreed the cam and it came in exactly at the 106 number called for on the cam card. Lets say I was wrong and it was off 4 degrees one way or another. Would that make this much of a difference?
*With fuel as high as 95 octane, what possible reason could cause an engine to spark knock if the A/F ratio is right and the fuel pressure is @ 5 lbs or more?
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/05/13 03:09 AM

I wonder if you have the same head gasket problem my buddy had with his 496 eddy heads and fel pro gasket??? fire rings hang in a bit and burnt right off. he was running 110 and still some detonation now with the big bore fel pro gasket he runs straight 94 big big difference???
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/05/13 03:56 AM

Quote:

I wonder if you have the same head gasket problem my buddy had with his 496 eddy heads and fel pro gasket??? fire rings hang in a bit and burnt right off. he was running 110 and still some detonation now with the big bore fel pro gasket he runs straight 94 big big difference???




I remember reading this before. Maybe it was you or Cab Burge that mentioned it? Could this really deliver the same symptoms? The engine runs pretty good until I reach full throttle. It ran like this with the 509 cam but is worse now. Would the burned gasket still seal? I have no oil in the radiator, no steam in the exhaust and no water in the oil.
Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/05/13 04:12 AM

He needs to find someone that has a good e85 carb put the timing back where it should be quit playing games,
he will keep going till he has a motor that will need total rework, either to much detonation , to much heat take exhaust valves out and take tension out a set of rings,
but keep trying something will give sooner or later!
need more than 5 # of fuel pressure , should have 7-8 going to carb!
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/05/13 04:23 AM

Don't recall if this was mentioned or not but did you verify that your timing mark for TDC is accurate?

Kevin
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/05/13 04:28 AM

I verified the timing mark when I degreed the cam. I was happy to see that it was correct.
Posted By: tobnHisglory

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/05/13 04:30 AM

I doubt this is causing your detonation now, but demon carbs have a reputation for being full of fine aluminum shavings ootb. That could be part of the problem you had getting the a/f ratio dialed in and why it improved when you cleaned out some of the passages with carb cleaner.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/05/13 07:22 AM

Take that carb completely apart and blow out all of the passages, ALL OF THEM Measure the size of the needles and seats, if they are smaller than .110 (the opening in the seats) replace them with bigger needles and seats Fuel delivery problems can and will drive you(and me) nuts After reading all of this post it reminds me of a problem I had with fuel delivery on one of my first car hauling trucks, it had crap packed up inside the fuel lines and fuel valve for switching tanks That problem almost drove me nuts back then Once you find these types of problem you learn what your made out of, you then know you can fix almost any thing Stick with this one, your going to figure it out
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 08:28 AM

Hey, if it seems like I am getting desperate, its only because I am.
Dodgem got me thinking about head gaskets. The "fire-ring" in the common Fel-Pro head gaskets isn't exactly round. Why they made them in this silly semi-oval design is beyond me. I went outside and laid a new 1009 Fel-Pro gasket on the deck of a .030 over 440 shortblock I have. The engine in my car is also a .030 440 block so I figure it is a fair mock-up. The quench side is up toward the intake side of the deck and the "fire-ring" does sit very close to the edge of the bore. I don't know if it would actually enter the bore after the head is torqued down but it does sit close. I looked on the Summit site and saw these:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1039

The bores in this gasket appear to be truly round. The bore size is much larger as well. The thickness increase would probably hurt quench a bit but lower compression about a 1/4 point.

THIS one looks a bit better:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7325

It is .038 compressed so the quench stays the same. The slightly larger bore would add volume to the combustion camber like the Fel Pro .051. Both would result in a slight reduction in compression just from the volume increase.


I wonder though that if my cranking compression numbers seem fine, how would I know if I have a gasket failure like Dodgem was talking about? I'm not against pulling the heads, I'm just getting tired of chasing dead ends!
Posted By: a12superbee

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 10:01 AM

Epic thread.
Even though you got the demon to work better did you do any road testing with the holley?

Myself, I would do everything I could to prove it was or was not a particular system. Same results with a different carb would make me look at a different system. After you've checked fuel pressure as mentioned of course.

How sure are you the ignition is isn't failing when put to the task?

You may have mentioned either but it's hard to keep up with all the spins this has taken.
You'll get it eventually, just comes down to how much time and $$$ it takes.

Edit: Might be worth it to pull the heads just to make sure they aren't full of carbon build up.
Or one of those nifty borescope to peak around in there.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 10:21 AM

I drove it with the Holley 750 today. It detonated at the same point as with every other road test!

I'm unsure of how I'm supposed to plumb a fuel pressure guage to see it while driving. Am I supposed to remove the hood and run 4 feet of hard line over to the windshield?

I have a few ignition ECUs I can try to see if they make any difference. I am a big fan of testing free parts. I have a Rev-n-nator ECU that I tried last year. kinda funny...I pulled it because it made the engine knock MORE than with a stock ECU at the same timing settings!

Regarding carbon buildup: I guess it is possible, but I did have the engine apart in 2011. I've put about 3000 miles on it since then including 2 road trips of 1000 miles each. If and when I pull the heads, I'll have them ported while they are off. I've wanted to do this for years but always went cheap and skipped it.
Posted By: a12superbee

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 11:02 AM

Guess I missed the part about it being opened up in 2011.
That you got the same basic results with the holley would make me look elsewhere. Even though you got the demon to work better you still have the same base issue, pre det.
You mentioned you had different results with the revinator I might poke around in that area, ignition I mean.

Since you like 'free' (so do I), have you tried playing with the plug gap and see if you can change anything?
I know a lot of guys claim bushwa on messing with the gap but you'll never convince me otherwise.
Too many times have I seen performance issues clear up by moving the gap around.
And yes, I've heard every reason why it doesn't matter before anyone feels the need to correct my way of thinking.

Don't know what the fight is about either, it's 'free' to play with it and costs the same amount to put it back.
Guys will pull apart everything else, spend dollar after dollar then kick and scream about tightening or opening the gap .005.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 02:38 PM

E85 and E70 forgot you guys can get it at the pumps down there.


i hear you have to ask and or check yourself to see if you station actually sells E85 or winter E70 all year round???

But when he went 91/100 50/50 ish he should have been fine in my opinion??
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 02:41 PM

Think part of the problem with the head gaskets is the combustion chamber design on a eddy head uncovers more of that fire wire.

Maybe why eddy sells a gasket with a bigger bore size??

Posted By: 67Satty

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 05:01 PM

You've tried a different cam, you've tried a different carb, still same problem.

Have you tried a different distributor?

Have you verified with a timing light that your distributor is really doing what the guy who recurved it said it was supposed to? Did the guy who set up your vacuum advance distributor set it up for the fact that you would be disconnecting the vacuum advance?

Did you set the initial, then rev it up to see the what the total is at a certain RPM?

Here's a crazy idea that won't cost anything. How about just hooking back up the vacuum advance you said you disconnected and see what it does with it hooked up? It will cost nothing and take a few seconds.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 06:49 PM

Quote:

You've tried a different cam, you've tried a different carb, still same problem.

Have you tried a different distributor?

Have you verified with a timing light that your distributor is really doing what the guy who recurved it said it was supposed to? Did the guy who set up your vacuum advance distributor set it up for the fact that you would be disconnecting the vacuum advance?

Did you set the initial, then rev it up to see the what the total is at a certain RPM?

Here's a crazy idea that won't cost anything. How about just hooking back up the vacuum advance you said you disconnected and see what it does with it hooked up? It will cost nothing and take a few seconds.




I have a few other distributors here. One is a Mopar Performance one. Looking inside them, I found that the total advance is adjustable by loosening 2 set screws and moving the base plate. This allows between 25 degrees of total advance down to ZERO. There is no welding required to modify them. I tried my spare after adjusting it to have about 8 degrees of total.I set initial to 25 and it stopped advancing at 33. The springs still seemed too soft because the advance starts moving at about 1600-1700 rpms. I don't know if the dyno guy changed the springs, but he did say he "worked the distributor". Until the other day, I didn't know about the ease of adjustability of them. as far as trying to run vacuum advance or the Rev-v-nator box,
I'm willing to try anything smart, silly or otherwise. I just want the car to run right.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 07:49 PM

well you don't want to ad vacuum advance right now that adds more timing at light throttle.

At This point I would do an 8 cylinder compression test and go from there.

What did you set your valves at hot or cold??
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 07:57 PM

Quote:

well you don't want to ad vacuum advance right now that adds more timing at light throttle.

At This point I would do an 8 cylinder compression test and go from there.

What did you set your valves at hot or cold??





Before I started in on all of this, I tested compression with a cold engine, all plugs out. Today I have yet to fire it up, so I can duplicate that cold testing procedure.
Regarding valve lash, I set them cold at .014 and .016. INT/EXH. The hot lash is listed to be .020 and .022 but I tightened it up .006 for expansion of the aluminum heads.
I'm going out now to test cranking compression.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 09:30 PM

******************************************************************
I may have found the problem or at least a contributing factor.

I finished a compression test and found the following:

#1...190 #2...190

#3...189 #3...190

#5...192 #6...195

#7...190 #8...192

This was strange to see. Earlier I wrote that I tested Cyl # 6 and got 173. It was a typo. I meant #5 and I have no idea of why it read that low. I tested it when the engine was still warm from a test run.
Nevertheless, These numbers I got today are actually higher than the ones I got with the '509 cam by 2 to 5 lbs per cylinder.
The numbers are as consistant from hole to hole as they have always been. Obviously this means that since it knocked with an average cylinder pressure reading of 188 it is going to be worse with an average of 191.
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 09:46 PM

At this point I say take the engine out of the car, disassemble it and see where the problem really is.

If you have been fighting the same problem for two years there's something basically wrong with the engine. Could be a piston, bearing or wristpin. Could be something else like a pushrod banging on a cylinder head.

I am frankly not trusting your diagnoses. This isn't a knock on you. You are much too close to the problem and IMHO have become part of it. It's human nature. I've done some classic booboos by getting wrapped so tight around a problem that I can't see that one or more of my basic assumptions has been incorrect.

Another problem is that you "jump on your horse and ride off in all different directions." Again, too close to the problem.

Again, this isn't a knock on you. Look at it from the outside. An engine with 10.7:1 compresion and aluminum heads should be driveable with intake duration 230 degrees @ 50 lift. But it knocked with a bigger camshaft, the MP .509. This cam has way too much duration for the lift, so by its very nature it shouldn't be detonation prone. Now you have added another say 15 or so degrees @ 50 lift. But you still get detonation. You check the ignition timing, seems to be in the ballpark. Change carbs in order to catch out a perhaps lean at part throttle problem, doesn't help. THEN you up the octane to way above what the engine should require AND IT STILL KNOCKS!

Something is really wrong. You may be misinterpreting the sounds. You may have the head gasket problem. You may have a broken piston, a wristpin on the way out, etc. etc. etc.

It's pretty obvious to me that doing anything more to the outside of the engine isn't going to make things any better.

TIME TO EXCAVATE!

R.

PS: I am really interested in seeing you find and fix the problem. You have worked so hard on this. I am concerned that whatever it is, will damage the engine further if you continue to run it.

PPS: Again, this is not a knock on you.
Posted By: RSNOMO

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 10:12 PM

Before you pull the trigger on yankin' the engine...

You could try and duplicate the knocking condition, and pull a plug wire one by one to try and potentially isolate a cylinder...

Just for the sake of argument...
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 10:26 PM

Quote:

At this point I say take the engine out of the car, disassemble it and see where the problem really is.

If you have been fighting the same problem for two years there's something basically wrong with the engine. Could be a piston, bearing or wristpin. Could be something else like a pushrod banging on a cylinder head.

I am frankly not trusting your diagnoses. This isn't a knock on you. You are much too close to the problem and IMHO have become part of it. It's human nature. I've done some classic booboos by getting wrapped so tight around a problem that I can't see that one or more of my basic assumptions has been incorrect.

Another problem is that you "jump on your horse and ride off in all different directions." Again, too close to the problem.

Again, this isn't a knock on you. Look at it from the outside. An engine with 10.7:1 compresion and aluminum heads should be driveable with intake duration 230 degrees @ 50 lift. But it knocked with a bigger camshaft, the MP .509. This cam has way too much duration for the lift, so by its very nature it shouldn't be detonation prone. Now you have added another say 15 or so degrees @ 50 lift. But you still get detonation. You check the ignition timing, seems to be in the ballpark. Change carbs in order to catch out a perhaps lean at part throttle problem, doesn't help. THEN you up the octane to way above what the engine should require AND IT STILL KNOCKS!

Something is really wrong. You may be misinterpreting the sounds. You may have the head gasket problem. You may have a broken piston, a wristpin on the way out, etc. etc. etc.

It's pretty obvious to me that doing anything more to the outside of the engine isn't going to make things any better.

TIME TO EXCAVATE!

R.

PS: I am really interested in seeing you find and fix the problem. You have worked so hard on this. I am concerned that whatever it is, will damage the engine further if you continue to run it.

PPS: Again, this is not a knock on you.




Your engine defies physical laws! We NEED TO KNOW WHY!!!

But seriously, you shouldn't have these issues with premium pump gas (with the retarded timing) and especially not with race gas! Something somewhere is not what you expect i.e. compression/timing/head gasket/etc.

Last thing you may try is the fuel pressure thing at WOT. You will need to plumb in a barb and use maybe 1/4" rubber FUEL line running to a pressure gauge taped to the windshield. I think you can buy the $10 vacuum/pressure gauge at Advance Auto and use it for this purpose.

Good luck! Just remember if this were an easy hobby, everyone would be driving these classic cars!
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 10:54 PM

Wow my old dyno program shows it would have 6 lb more cranking with this solid over the 509 hydraulic but wow???

maybe your compression is higher than you think??

But with 50/50 91/100 should have been fine??

don't know what to think I was thinking right around 170 would be right with that cam and 10.7 to one.

You need a bigger cam and higher stall. :-)

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/05/13 11:09 PM

Quote:

Wow my old dyno program shows it would have 6 lb more cranking with this solid over the 509 hydraulic but wow???








Your "program" shows the Lunati to have MORE pressure? I wish I knew this. The guy that told me of the specs for the '509 said that THIS Lunati has an intake closing 11 degrees later. The ENTIRE goal here was to reduce cranking compression. I am pissed that I spent close to $1800 on parts over the last 2 months only to step backwards.

* 1.6 rocker arms: $450
* Pushrods for 1.6 arms: $120
* Lunati cam: $200
* Howards lifters: $180
* Pushrods/solid lifter $140
* Timing set $80
* Degree kit & misc: $140
* Gasket set: $70
* Milodon oil pan: $180
* Milodon oil pickup: $40
* Jegs windage tray: $80
* Break in oil $50
* Misc stuff: $100
$1830

After pulling all of the plugs for the test, I looked closely at them. They all looked about the same, though the plug gaps varied between .035 and .039. I regapped them and will go back out for another test. I want to run down the tank a bit then pour in the 110 leaded I just bought.
Posted By: ademon

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 12:14 AM

I run 205 psi cyl presure with no knock on 93 pump. Your problem isn't the cyl psi.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 12:31 AM

Quote:

BSB, are you telling me that while the A/F ratio may look good on the guage, fuel pressure at WOT make a difference? My experience is that the A/F readings are unreliable when the carb is low on fuel/fuel pressure, especially on a few second burst.


I'm unsure of how I'm supposed to plumb a fuel pressure guage to see it while driving. Am I supposed to remove the hood and run 4 feet of hard line over to the windshield? There should be enough room in the gap between the hood and the firewall or fender to run a flexable plastic type line. I have done this several times, and if you look closely, you can see it in my sig. pic





Is it the fuel pressure at WOT? I don't know. But you really should do the test and find out one way or the other. If nothing else, you can then take one more thing off your list of what it could be.

Slow down and be more careful on your information and data gathering. Repeat or duplicate your tests to validate the results.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 01:00 AM

I struggle with the results that I get using most readily available dynamic calculators. Does yours use seat timing or timing @ 0.050"?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 01:24 AM

Currently I don't have a link, but the calculator I used was the KBsilvolite one. It uses the intake closing number, not duration. I'll look for it and link it.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 01:46 AM

Quote:

Currently I don't have a link, but the calculator I used was the KBsilvolite one. It uses the intake closing number, not duration. I'll look for it and link it.




This question was to Dodgem.

You need the duration to determine the IVC, either seat, or at 0.050", depending on the calculator. Yours should be 56 @ 0.050, and 84 using seat timing.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 01:58 AM

BSB,
I will look at fittings to plumb a guage extension for the fuel pressure tomorrow.
Is the belief that if fuel pressure drops at WOT, the A/F guage can read fine even if the engine runs lean or out of fuel?
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 02:03 AM

Quote:

BSB,
I will look at fittings to plumb a guage extension for the fuel pressure tomorrow.
Is the belief that if fuel pressure drops at WOT, the A/F guage can read fine even if the engine runs lean or out of fuel?




I have data that says yes.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 02:06 AM







Your "program" shows the Lunati to have MORE pressure? I wish I knew this. The guy that told me of the specs for the '509 said that THIS Lunati has an intake closing 11 degrees later. The ENTIRE goal here was to reduce cranking compression. I am pissed that I spent close to $1800 on parts over the last 2 months only to step backwards.

well a 261 degree cam closes 6.5 degrees later than a 248 509 mopar cam 261 - 248= 13 /2 =6.5 half the extra duration is on opening. and then it's a solid so that really comes into play with the way a solid works with it's lash and positive opening and closing.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 02:24 AM

So why would cylinder pressure start to build when the valve is open 0.050 to 0.075" (depending on cam) ?

To the OP, you can tighten the lash too, that will lower the cylinder pressure some, but probably not enough to help if race fuel did not help.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 02:34 AM

Quote:



well a 261 degree cam closes 6.5 degrees later than a 248 509 mopar cam 261 - 248= 13 /2 =6.5 half the extra duration is on opening. and then it's a solid so that really comes into play with the way a solid works with it's lash and positive opening and closing.





Since I am a bit frazzled with all of this stuff, Isn't the whole theory of a later intake closing still relevant? If the intake valve closes later with the piston rising in the bore, how can it be building more pressure?
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 02:35 AM

I think they use the .050 numbers as to what power potential a cam has as they deem it is not doing much before and after .050.

But for cylinder pressure a solid cam makes more and may have a sharper ramp bringing @ .020 and @ .000 into play so the hydraulic cam even though 13 degrees less duration @.050 may have more duration @ .020 and especially .000 as lash comes into play.


Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 03:44 AM

Let me throw you a curve, heat causes detonation, no matter what is causing the heat, correct? Have you done anything to the exhaust system recently? Is it possible that one side or the other is plugged up with some foriegn object in it
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 05:36 AM

The only thing I have done is install the oxygen sensor in the RH collector. Besides that, the rest of the system is as it has been for years.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 06:28 AM

Try disconnecting the collectors so you can run it with open headers to see if that helps
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 06:55 AM

In 2006 I tried using .060 Cometic MLS head gaskets to cure this same problem. It worked for me then. A few years later while trying to diagnose an oil burning issue, I found that I had some odd valve stem wear. I pulled the heads to replace the bad ones. The Cometics were thrown away. I didn't have the cash for new ones, so I went with some Fel Pro 1009s I had in my parts stash. Since then, the detonation has been sporadic. My notes show little, but I did write that the Cometics and Comp XE285 cam idled smoother and ran great without detonation. I even had one page where I wrote that I had the timing set to 35-36 degrees for max power but the 23 degree initial made the car hard to start.
I know that using thicker head gaskets flies in the face of some opinions here. Some think the detonation would get worse due to lost quench. Other members say that at my current .056 quench distance, the effects of quench are barely there.
I have been looking at different head gaskets over the last few years. Every so often I am tempted to try this again. Dodgem got me thinking about it again.

The Fel Pro 1009:
4.410 bore .039 compressed. 9.7 cc volume 10.7 to 1 in my 493.
Fel Pro 1105:
4.590 bore .051 compressed. 13.7 cc volume 10.36 to 1
Edelbrock:
4.450 bore .038 compressed. 9.9 cc volume 10.74 to 1
The most interesting one is THIS:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fog-900464520/overview/make/chrysler

The Flatout would lower my compression to 10.11 to one. Surely that would run on 91 octane.
I'm looking at all options still. Tomorrow I'll check fuel pressure AND run the 110 octane fuel.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 07:31 AM

Quote:

The "fire-ring" in the common Fel-Pro head gaskets isn't exactly round. Why they made them in this silly semi-oval design is beyond me. I went outside and laid a new 1009 Fel-Pro gasket on the deck of a .030 over 440 shortblock I have. The engine in my car is also a .030 440 block so I figure it is a fair mock-up. The quench side is up toward the intake side of the deck and the "fire-ring" does sit very close to the edge of the bore. I don't know if it would actually enter the bore after the head is torqued down but it does sit close.




I have a correction. The head gasket that I checked was a 7891 PT 11. It was in a gasket set I had in the parts shed. I'm not sure of the difference. These same gaskets may be in the engine now. I used gaskets included in the full gasket set.
Posted By: Sixgun

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/06/13 08:31 AM

Quote:

the cam don't need bigger jets but 10% ethanol fuel requires 2 jet sizes
as ethanol fuel burns lean.





I actually DO live under a rock, but this is the first time I heard this.No kidding?All we have nowadays is the "up to 10% ethanol"crud, but I can get midgrade ethanol free at a cardlock station I belong to (for boats and such)
thanks for the info,makes sense.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/06/13 08:35 AM

My understanding of Ethanol is that ounce for ounce, it contains less energy than gasoline. It stands to reason that if there is Ethanol in the gasoline, there will be some loss of energy as a result. The "fix" is to use a greater amout of it to equal that of straight gasoline.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/06/13 11:10 AM

Quote:

Try disconnecting the collectors so you can run it with open headers to see if that helps




I would suggest trying this as well.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/06/13 01:42 PM

How free flowing is your exhaust 3" with X pipe??

that number is a generic bb gasket set just be the cheaper head gasket.
But the problem exists with the 1009.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-fs7891pt11


what heat range spark plugs you running I like C59CX think that equates to a nine on some foreign plug?? :-)


Your sure your not sucking oil past the intake gasket a little oil will make it detonate like crazy!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/06/13 06:14 PM

Quote:

How free flowing is your exhaust 3" with X pipe??



Your sure your not sucking oil past the intake gasket a little oil will make it detonate like crazy!





Good points. I have a 2.5" exhaust system with Flowmasters and tailpipes. NO H or X pipe. I've thought of stepping up to a 3" system.

I did see a bit of oil laying in the valley pan. I had some there at times with the 509 cam in place. I never thought that could be a problem sine I don't see any oil smoke coming from the car. I used Permatex on the intake bolts as usual, so I'm unsure of where it is getting there. Maybe I should pull the intake and valley pan to reseal it?
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/06/13 06:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

How free flowing is your exhaust 3" with X pipe??



Your sure your not sucking oil past the intake gasket a little oil will make it detonate like crazy!





Good points. I have a 2.5" exhaust system with Flowmasters and tailpipes. NO H or X pipe. I've thought of stepping up to a 3" system.

I did see a bit of oil laying in the valley pan. I had some there at times with the 509 cam in place. I never thought that could be a problem sine I don't see any oil smoke coming from the car. I used Permatex on the intake bolts as usual, so I'm unsure of where it is getting there. Maybe I should pull the intake and valley pan to reseal it?




Check the carb base plate. This could be from the carb to PCV vacuum line pulling oil mist. I get a couple of drops from my carb of oily slurry once in a while which drips on my intake. I know it's coming from the carb so this is all I can think off.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/06/13 06:23 PM

My PCV hose was a bit of a loose fit to the nipple on the base of the carb. I cut about an inch from it and it fits tight now. I thought it may have contributed to a vacuum leak.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/06/13 10:34 PM

You have a Breather on the other valve cover i take it?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/06/13 10:57 PM

Quote:

You have a Breather on the other valve cover i take it?





The RH valve cover has a breather that is open air. The LH has a PCV valve ran to the base of the carb. I made an elaborate baffle that sits under the PCV valve to stop oil from splashing up and into it.

I rigged up a long 5/16" fuel hose to test the fuel pressure. I ran it forward through the core support and grille, then along the passenger fender. I ziptied it to the antenna and RH wiper arm, then taped the guage to the windshield. It sorta looked like something from "Back to the Future."
It reads 7-8 at idle. About the same at cruise. It drops a little at part throttle, maybe to a steady 7. At WOT it drops to about 5 but hasn't gone below that.
I was able to make 2 WOT runs without detonation, then it started in again. I ran it maybe 5 rimes @ WOT, but when it started pinging, I lifted a bit. I was able to go beyond 3/4 throttle without the knock. maybe I'm getting close. It was encouraging to have those 2 WOT runs without knocking. Maybe the cooler engine was more tolerant, or......
When I first went out to the car, I saw more oil laying in the valley pan. There is also a thin film on each head between the valve covers and the intake. I'm curious if the valve covers are leaking at the top or if oil is pushing UP from between the intake, valley tin and heads. The sides of the valve covers that face the intake are also a bit wet in the middle. There still has been no visible oil smoke from the exhaust, but I suspect that all it takes is a few drops of oil to make the engine ping. That much may not even be detectable in the exhaust stream.

First thing today, I checked the intake bolts ro see if they were tight enough. I was able to turn them 1/4 turn MORE. The FSM calls for 12 lbs, but I've always figured that a little more is better. It was directly after tightening them that I took the road test. The manifold vacuum at idle was up to 11.0, compared to 10.0 before.

I'm going to replace the valve cover gaskets since they already had a tiny leak at the back corners on each side. I'll check for any signs of additional leakage. I'm also going to replace the valley pan. I have 2 more new ones here. If I see any traces of oil on the heads or valley pan, I'll at least have that info to build from.
It was a shock the first WOT run without knocking. I was hoping that I had fixed it!
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 01:10 AM

Good luck. use plenty of silicone on the intake gaskets around the ports snug wait an hour tighten good heat cycle tighten again and periodicaly

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 01:55 AM

I am embarrassed to admit that when I pulled the intake, there was oil film around the ports on the intake and valley pan. The walls of the intake ports have oil on them too. I pulled the valley pan. It is oily on the back sides of the ports and the heads have a thin film of oil on them too. I'm surprised at this because I sprayed Brakleen around the ports and the RPMs didn't change at all. Maybe the oil was getting sucked up from the lifter valley, under the valley pan?
The valley pan was installed without the paper gaskets. THIS time I'll use them on both sides. I have the thin ones that come with the Fel Pro full gasket set. They are about half the thickness of the Mr Gasket ones.
Years ago, I checked the intake on the bare heads to look for a misalignment. It seemed to sit squarely to each head.

After all this, wouldn't it be wacky if it came down to a poor seal at the intake?
Posted By: superbeedave

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 02:10 AM

I noticed on your post earlier you said your intake bolts were loose and only torqued 12 lbs. If this is correct you should be torqueing these to 25 ft lbs. I felt like I needed to jump in with everyone else!
Posted By: racerhog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 02:11 AM

Thats not a good sign.....
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 02:25 AM

Quote:

I'm surprised at this because I sprayed Brakleen around the ports and the RPMs didn't change at all. Maybe the oil was getting sucked up from the lifter valley, under the valley pan




This is why you use the choke method.
Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/07/13 02:49 AM

So many things at play that causing his issues,
timing , valves could be caulded in the guid causing valves not to seat at closing , intake leak, , has more compression than he thinks he has, jetting carbs close to what I run even on alcohol,
Way to much stuff out of any norm , something just not right,
As I posted before keep at it it will show sooner rather than later!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 03:29 AM

Quote:



This is why you use the choke method.




By "choke" do you mean put my hands around the choke/primary area? I did that yesterday and was able to stall the engine at idle.


What do you think of my fuel pressure?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 06:10 AM

All the FSM I have call for 35 to 45 Ft Lbs torque on the BB intake bolts, I use a inch lb wrench with a offset Crows foot( that what I call them, box end 3/8 drive extender with a 1.500 inch from center to center) and do the math for adding the extension on the torque setting 12 lbs won't even fatten out the stock steel embossing on the stock valey pan Tighten that rascal up Let us know what you find don't we hate Mr MURPHY
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 08:05 AM

What the hell was I thinking???
I thought I read in the Edelbrock instructions to not exceed 12 lbs!
As I said, I always went further than that. I certainly went beyond 35 ft lbs this time!
Tomorow I'll fire it up and drive it.
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 09:03 AM

Sorry your going down so many dead ends.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 12:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:



This is why you use the choke method.




By "choke" do you mean put my hands around the choke/primary area? I did that yesterday and was able to stall the engine at idle.


What do you think of my fuel pressure?





The engine rpm will rise a little before it dies if there is a leak.

5 psi at the carb, at WOT with .110" fuel inlets should support 550 to 600 hp, from my experience.
Posted By: superbeedave

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 06:02 PM

Quote:

What the hell was I thinking???
I thought I read in the Edelbrock instructions to not exceed 12 lbs!
As I said, I always went further than that. I certainly went beyond 35 ft lbs this time!
Tomorow I'll fire it up and drive it.




I would like to make a comment and I don't want you to take it the wrong way but it seems like every time we/you turn around you have made a mistake or think you may have made a mistake. Do you think that maybe you could have also made a mistake or missed something within the engine like degreeing in the cam wrong? I'm just stating the facts Frankenduster! We all would like you to fix this probelm so we can get on with our lives! Or help someone else out with their problems! Lol!!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 06:37 PM

Life is full of mistakes, Dave.
Sure, I've made a few. If I knew everything, I wouldn't be here asking for advice. A thread like this would have only had 4 responses if all the ducks were in a row and the car ran perfectly. I have had great luck with almost every other car I've owned because they were either stock or only slightly warmed over. A high performance engine raises the stakes beyond what I have dealt with. Part of the problem is that I have trusted some people that gave poor advice. First off, the vendor that sold me the stroker assembly.
* "Sure, it will run fine on pump gas."
Of course it will. Its just that everything in the combo has to be tuned more carefully since the high compression raises the stakes.
" Detonation, huh? I suggest a smaller cam and some thicker head gaskets to lower compression."
The above two quotes came from a respected vendor. This was my first foray into a high compression stroked engine and I relied on others to steer me through it.
I am not pissed, but I'd like to know what all the mistakes you think I've made? Carb jetting? Its an experiment process. What works for one engine isn't right for another. Distributor timing? Same thing. I wrote that the engine ran warm during the cam break in. Who hasn't had that happen in warm weather? So far the only real screw up has been the oiled intake gaskets. Maybe it was due to my insufficient torque, maybe the intake and head have a slight misalignment I cannot see. Some guys install their valley pans with the paper gaskets, some do not.
Maybe some look at a thread with 150 responses and automatically think the OP is an idiot that can't get his junk figured out. If you are the type to make snap judgements, that is too bad. There has been some great advice in this thread that may help others in the future.
Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 06:51 PM

Quote:

Life is full of mistakes, Dave.
Sure, I've made a few. If I knew everything, I wouldn't be here asking for advice. A thread like this would have only had 4 responses if all the ducks were in a row and the car ran perfectly. I have had great luck with almost every other car I've owned because they were either stock or only slightly warmed over. A high performance engine raises the stakes beyond what I have dealt with. Part of the problem is that I have trusted some people that gave poor advice. First off, the vendor that sold me the stroker assembly.
* "Sure, it will run fine on pump gas."
Of course it will. Its just that everything in the combo has to be tuned more carefully since the high compression raises the stakes.
" Detonation, huh? I suggest a smaller cam and some thicker head gaskets to lower compression."
The above two quotes came from a respected vendor. This was my first foray into a high compression stroked engine and I relied on others to steer me through it.
I am not pissed, but I'd like to know what all the mistakes you think I've made? Carb jetting? Its an experiment process. What works for one engine isn't right for another. Distributor timing? Same thing. I wrote that the engine ran warm during the cam break in. Who hasn't had that happen in warm weather? So far the only real screw up has been the oiled intake gaskets. Maybe it was due to my insufficient torque, maybe the intake and head have a slight misalignment I cannot see. Some guys install their valley pans with the paper gaskets, some do not.
Maybe some look at a thread with 150 responses and automatically think the OP is an idiot that can't get his junk figured out. If you are the type to make snap judgements, that is too bad. There has been some great advice in this thread that may help others in the future.




Don't feel bad at all. I have made a few of these 'epic saga' threads myself when I had some hard-to-find issues with my Charger. It happens and that's why Moparts is here. If some don't care to keep following your progress, then they can always stop reading the thread.

I still stand by that at least part of your issue is vacuum leak related. It fits the whole lean fuel mix and really low vacuum you are experiencing. The jetting you were going to in order to richen the mixture up seemed pretty high to me but I am not a pro on carbs by a long shot.

12ft-lbs of torque on the intake bolts ain't squat. I'm not sure what you read (or mistook) but 30-35 ft-lbs would be more appropriate. It is important not to over-torque on these aluminum heads but 12 is wayyy too loose. I never use the paper gaskets with the valley pan. I just run a bead of copper RTV ont he sealing surfaces and bolt her together. Finger tight all around then snug the intake bolts down to maybe 15 ft-lbs in crisscross fashion then repeat to 30 ft-lbs or so. Don't worry about the RTV oozing out...you can cut it off when it cures and any inside the intake ports will blow out your tailpipe when you crank it!
Posted By: a12superbee

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 07:02 PM

Don't take it too personally, we're all still pulling for you.

So, how did the last road test go with more torque to the intake?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 07:33 PM

Thanks!
I'm heading out there in a few minutes! I wonder if I'll have to get it warmed up and run it awhile to clean off the oil film on the intake ports.
Posted By: 67Satty

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 08:21 PM

Whenever I run into mechanical problems I like to pretend I am a scientist/engineer applying scientific method to the problem, trying one experiment at a time and noting the results.

In your example:

Is carb source of detonation? Tried different carb, still detonates, so carb is not issue.

Is cam source of detonation? Tried different cam, still detonates, so cam is not issue.

Is low fuel pressure source of detonation? Tested fuel pressure, checks out OK, so fuel pressure is not an issue.

Is distributor curve source of detonation? Don't know, you haven't experimented with a distributor you know for sure to be set up for your combo. That test still needs to be run.
if you don't send your distributor to someone like Don at FBO to curve for you, then why not just copy what someone else has done with a similar combo with their distributor and then test that?

Do you know for sure the dyno guy who messed with your distributor knew what he was doing? Was he a Chevy guy or a Mopar guy?

The other thing a scientist or engineer would do is make some guesses based on work that has already been done by others (no need to reinvent the wheel). In your case, there's tons of people who have run similar combos with similar cylinder pressures without detonation. So cylinder pressure checks out OK.

Another question to ask, the people who are running the same cylinder pressure or higher on pump gas with no detonation, what is different about their combo from yours?

Your next test is what effect proper intake manifold torque has, which you should be able to find out in about 20 minutes.

I think making sure you have the correct curve/phase on your distributor is the next test and one of the cheapest and easiest to try out compared to all the other stuff you tried.

The other thing I like to do is start with the easiest/cheapest stuff first and work my way in because I'm lazy and cheap but that is also probably the most efficient too.

A great book to read is called "Rocket Men" about the engineers who took on Kennedy's challenge of putting a man on the moon by the end of the 1960s. It's unreal and staggering how many mistakes and challenges they overcame in such a short amount of time. I think about the stuff they overcame whenever I get frustrated with issues with my old car or motorcycles.

You'll get it eventually if you just keep applying enough scientific method to it.



Posted By: a12superbee

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 08:54 PM

Hopefully you're not back too soon, how long are your drives with the car?
Do you drive it around like a car or a few quick stabs at the throttle and back to the shop?
Posted By: superbeedave

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/07/13 10:47 PM

Quote:

Life is full of mistakes, Dave.
Sure, I've made a few. If I knew everything, I wouldn't be here asking for advice. A thread like this would have only had 4 responses if all the ducks were in a row and the car ran perfectly. I have had great luck with almost every other car I've owned because they were either stock or only slightly warmed over. A high performance engine raises the stakes beyond what I have dealt with. Part of the problem is that I have trusted some people that gave poor advice. First off, the vendor that sold me the stroker assembly.
* "Sure, it will run fine on pump gas."
Of course it will. Its just that everything in the combo has to be tuned more carefully since the high compression raises the stakes.
" Detonation, huh? I suggest a smaller cam and some thicker head gaskets to lower compression."
The above two quotes came from a respected vendor. This was my first foray into a high compression stroked engine and I relied on others to steer me through it.
I am not pissed, but I'd like to know what all the mistakes you think I've made? Carb jetting? Its an experiment process. What works for one engine isn't right for another. Distributor timing? Same thing. I wrote that the engine ran warm during the cam break in. Who hasn't had that happen in warm weather? So far the only real screw up has been the oiled intake gaskets. Maybe it was due to my insufficient torque, maybe the intake and head have a slight misalignment I cannot see. Some guys install their valley pans with the paper gaskets, some do not.
Maybe some look at a thread with 150 responses and automatically think the OP is an idiot that can't get his junk figured out. If you are the type to make snap judgements, that is too bad. There has been some great advice in this thread that may help others in the future.



I apologize Frank if I affended you and your intelegence when it comes to this situation. I am behind you all the way and I will just sit back and keep my opinons to myself and cross my fingers in hope that you get through this without any major problems. How did the valley pan change go for you. Did you have alot of oil in your head ports and between the pan gasket and heads? I sure did mine today when I pulled my pan and intake off. Keep pushing and fighting you will figure it out! I am beginning to think that the black RTV gets eaten away by the fuel that goes thru the ports which over time causes oil leaks and vacuum leaks.
Posted By: Von

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. - 09/08/13 06:30 AM

Quote:

The Flatout would lower my compression to 10.11 to one. Surely that would run on 91 octane.






I have a .040 440 that figures to be around 10.15 comp. Cam was a solid 259/259. 452s with flat top pistons, so no quench whatsoever. I only audibly heard that motor rattle one time. It was a hot (95) degree day, high humidity. Went home and pulled some timing. Back to 34ish, I believe. Never heard anymore rattle. When I pulled the heads off, pistons in cylinder 1 and 5 show light peppering on the tops.The other 6 look fine. Nothing major. But, it showed me that the motor was on the ragged edge of detonation.
Posted By: Von

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/08/13 06:36 AM

Quote:

Maybe some look at a thread with 150 responses and automatically think the OP is an idiot that can't get his junk figured out.




In regards to the above....I started numerous threads about the never ending issues I had in regards to burning up push rod cups. I tried everyting under the sun, and never really found an absolute answer to my issue(s). Im sure ALOT of people think Im an idiot, cuz apparently I am the only one in the history of BB Mopars to have the problems I had..but oh well....

In any case, you will get it figured out!!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/08/13 06:40 AM

Thanks, 67Satty. Your response took awhile to write! I actually did send an email to FBO on Thursday. Their web site states that they do not work on Fridays...I'll wait to hear back on Monday. I agree that the distributor could still be an issue.
I also agree that other guys are running similar combinations without the detonation problems that I am seeing. This is exactly why I get so frustrated! Its not as if I am in totally uncharted territory. When I was trying everything under the sun to stop detonation with the 509 cam still in place, I got a wide range of suggestions. A large proportion of them were to "go with a bigger cam".
I will get this figured out.
SuperBeeDave:
If I appeared touchy, I am sorry. I am not above criticism. I can take it if it is legitimate. I'm trying hard here to figure this out and I appreciate all the help I am getting. I understand how it can be for those that offer help through websites. You take the time to peck at the computer your best suggestions and the OP still seems lost. Those that offer help may start to feel unappreciated and resentful. I have been on the other end and I DO get it. I also must say that I am as humble as anyone. My ego is not so big for me to omit my mistakes for the sake of saving face. I admit where I screwed up. I don't think we should keep our opinions to ourselves all the time. I like a bit of controversy, a smart aleck remark or an insult now and then as long as it isn't malicious.

Todays update: I went out to start the car after yesterdays work. The valley pan was replaced and this time I used the paper gaskets on both sides of the tin. YES, this time I torqued the intake bolts to MORE than 12 ft/lbs! I also replaced the valve cover gaskets to cure a small leak on each side.
This morning I went out to find 2 oil leaks! Okay, before you convince yourself that I really am an idiot, let me explain. Looking from underneath, I noticed that the gasket rail on the valve cover hung over the head by more than 1/8" at the bottom. I pulled the valve covers and found that I was right. The gasket surface on the Edelbrock head is actually narrower than the valve cover by 3/16". This may not be a problem if I had used the hard black fibrous gaskets, but I used some thinner rubber ones that came in a gasket set. . The rubber distorted when I tightened down the covers because the gaskets only sit about halfways on the head! Huh??
I pulled the covers again, removed the gaskets and cleaned the RTV off. I usually use the hard gaskets in this car. This was the first time I tried the softer rubber ones. I had no idea that the valve covers were wider than the heads. Now that I am aware of this, I'll be sure to hold the valve covers UP towards the intake while tightening the bolts. This should insure that the lower section of the valve cover and gasket makes more contact on the head.
I put the better sealing "hard fibrous" gaskets on the valve covers and let them sit to set up.
I was busy the rest of the day with other things, so if I get time, I'll get the covers on and road test.

Oh, the good gaskets I usually use are Fel Pro PN: VS 50145 R. They came up as the proper gaskets for a 1975 Chrysler New Yorker with a 440.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/08/13 02:23 PM

Quote:



In regards to the above....I started numerous threads about the never ending issues I had in regards to burning up push rod cups. I tried everyting under the sun, and never really found an absolute answer to my issue(s). Im sure ALOT of people think Im an idiot, cuz apparently I am the only one in the history of BB Mopars to have the problems I had..but oh well....






I was wondering if you ever figured this one out, knowing that if you did, we would all learn something.
Posted By: Von

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/08/13 04:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:



I was wondering if you ever figured this one out, knowing that if you did, we would all learn something.





Well I got the burning cup issue to go away. On a whim, I changed oil pump relief springs. I had cut one down, to lower pressure. Pressure was more than enough with the cut spring. 50ish lbs at idle. After I changed spring, pressure is mid 60s at idle. The issue went away. Seems crazy to need that much pressure to stop the issue.

I did have a groove put in my cam. It gets more oil to the top, although not a major amount more.

I have a 470 on the stand that will have a roller cam in it. I did the valley mods/installed a restrictor on it to get full time oiling. I'll see how that works.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/08/13 05:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



I was wondering if you ever figured this one out, knowing that if you did, we would all learn something.





Well I got the burning cup issue to go away. On a whim, I changed oil pump relief springs. I had cut one down, to lower pressure. Pressure was more than enough with the cut spring. 50ish lbs at idle. After I changed spring, pressure is mid 60s at idle. The issue went away. Seems crazy to need that much pressure to stop the issue.

I did have a groove put in my cam. It gets more oil to the top, although not a major amount more.

I have a 470 on the stand that will have a roller cam in it. I did the valley mods/installed a restrictor on it to get full time oiling. I'll see how that works.




It probably makes more sense than you think.... now.

IIRC those cups were oiled thru the adjusters or thru a verrry small passage in the arm itself. Liquids are just like electricity in that they will take the path of least resistance. In your case 50 psi wasn't enough pressure (voltage if you will) to overcome the resistance of the passage compared to other sources of escape near by.

Kevin
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/09/13 03:34 PM

So how are things coming :-)
I was away for two days racing well one day got 1 tt and then rain but yesterday was cool! went 4 rounds out in the 1/4's with 5 cars left probably should have had that one too lifted a tad to soon. :-(
But Mopar day so all cool nots of great cars.

I had my trials at the track after the first TT almost stalling at the ticket booth and when i backed it in?? next TT same thing smells bad idle is missing we check and check cool it down and in with a new set of C59CX no different, tighten intake, intake adapter and carb nothing? Pull both valve covers nothing have it running still the same great spark so we are standing there talking a bit of vapor smoke coming out of the carb as often then buddy says was that a wisp of smoke coming from under front of carb I look and it's coming out of the idle mixture screw hole mixture screw is MIA grab one out of my 800 and set as is cool again! LOL! Little loose s a bit of duck tape over it and go. That took us an Hour! :-)

I had thought about tinkering with mixtures and if I had would have found it right away but normally I set it and don't ever have to tinker with it!

Oh well 35 year old 1050 Dommy may need a couple new parts!

Posted By: Von

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/10/13 05:43 AM

Quote:


It probably makes more sense than you think.... now.

IIRC those cups were oiled thru the adjusters or thru a verrry small passage in the arm itself. Liquids are just like electricity in that they will take the path of least resistance. In your case 50 psi wasn't enough pressure (voltage if you will) to overcome the resistance of the passage compared to other sources of escape near by.

Kevin




I smell what you are steppin in...but...

I had the same issue on 2 different motors. Different blocks, heads, etc.

I tried 5 different sets (Brands) of rockers. 4 different sets of shafts. 5 different lengths of pushrods. Different adjusters. Hollow adjusters. Shimmed the rockers super tight. I even "turned" the hold down hardware down a few .001 to get more flow through the shafts. Id estimate I pumped 5 gallons of oil out of the dang motors onto the ground.

While it is a "crappy" design, it doesnt take much oil to keep the cups happy.

The only common factor to everything is an oil additive I used/still use. SLOB. I cant see that it would be the "cause"

While I understand what you are saying...quite a few guys have less to much less pressure than I have. Esp the guys with non bushed blocks with roller lifters. Ive not heard of anywhere near the issues I had.
Posted By: mopfried

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/10/13 10:56 PM

Frankenduster!! Your killin me dude!! So whats happining. Did you get to the bottom of the pinging? My 440 in my scamp pings too! I have a wideband and have yet to install it. I am also running a BG 850 DP,,, I have also had a 750 Holley vac secondary on it... What have you found??

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/11/13 02:56 AM

Hey guys...
Sorry that I've been away. I got called to a job FAAAAR away from home and I'm staying in a Motel. I hope to get back to the car on Friday. One good thing: I usually like to let the RTV set up so the gaskets dont slip out of position during installation, and I'm sure that by Friday, the valve cover gaskets will be secure!
I have an email to Don at FBO. I'm sure that there are gains to be had with a better advance curve. I have 2 MP electronic distributors, so I'll probably send one for tuning and keep the other in the car until FBO returns it.
I like having that wideband guage. I've already had all sorts of missteps with the car. At the very least, this guage lets me know when I am heading in the right direction. Once the car is dialed in, I'm not so sure how useful it might be. I've toyed with the idea of adding a vacuum guage to sit alongside it. I don't smoke, so I removed the ashtray and made a twin guage pod to fit there.
Posted By: mopfried

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/11/13 03:20 AM

Hey working is important! Let us know what happens!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 05:57 AM

Tomorrow I plan to get the valve covers back on and take the car for a drive. I do have an update, though.

I have emailed with Don at FBO. Many members here know him to be a knowledgeable guy with ignition systems. I inquired about having my distributor recurved for my application. He responded, asking all of the various specs and the intended use of the car. In summary, he thinks my whole combo is out of whack! Converter too tight for the car, too tight for the cam, Timing comes in too early. He didn't like that I blocked off the vacuum advance. He thinks my carb jetting is off. He feels If I want an engine that is easier to drive, I'd need a smaller cam.
I'm more confused now!
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 08:14 AM

Quote:

I'm more confused now!


& I thought you (we) were making progress here
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 02:44 PM

I've never had any faith in Don! He likes to use the vacuum advance to hold idle up using manifold vacuum instead of the intended light cruise it was designed for on ported vaccuum. Its not really relivant with todays gas on a performance motor.
Guess if you don't know how to make a cammed motor idle that is what you do :-) .

I would like to see a looser converter but at this point drive see where you are and go from there. 3800???

recurving a distributor is a 5 minute job so do it yourself and try different things.

Your msd should have came with an advance kit different springs and stops

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/msdbuspset.html

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/disadweigspr.html

you can try the big stop 18 degree?? and stiff springs to slow down the advance to come in later. everything in this game is trial and error to get it best!




Posted By: cjskotni

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 04:11 PM

Quote:

I have emailed with Don at FBO. Many members here know him to be a knowledgeable guy with ignition systems. I inquired about having my distributor recurved for my application. He responded, asking all of the various specs and the intended use of the car. In summary, he thinks my whole combo is out of whack! Converter too tight for the car, too tight for the cam, Timing comes in too early. He didn't like that I blocked off the vacuum advance. He thinks my carb jetting is off. He feels If I want an engine that is easier to drive, I'd need a smaller cam.
I'm more confused now!





What converter are you running?...I didn't see where you said but I don't have the time to re-read this entire thread ;-)

I would think anything in the 2500+ (ideally 3000+) stall range would at least 'work' in your combo. I am not going to trash talk anybody as I am far from an expert but I don't think a slightly less than ideal converter would cause all this pinging. I run a 2500 stall converter on mine with no issues (although I have the wimpy-ish cam).

Yes, your cam is a bit radical for a street car IMO (although 'street' is subjective) but still should be able to work better than this. I summary, I don't think your converter/cam is the problem here....even if it's not ideal.

FWIW, I don't use the vacuum advance on my distributor at all. My distributor (MP) has a total mechanical advance on 18*. The vacuum advance made it tend to ping unless I pulled back the initial which the engine didn't like as much. The chassis dyno agreed.
Posted By: mickm

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 05:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm more confused now!


& I thought you (we) were making progress here




i don't think you should take all that too literally, at least not yet. i've been following this thread, and there are a lot of knowledgeable people here, and i haven't seen anyone yet say your whole combo is out of whack. may not be perfect, but whose is in everyone's eyes? ok, well, mine is, but hey...

anyway, keep going and see what you get. this is a b!tch, and it is no fun right now, but the knowledge and experience you are accumulating is vast. when you get to the end of this, you will know more about the systems on these cars than you ever imagined, and it will all have been worth it!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 06:15 PM

My converter is a 9 3/4" built by a local company. In 2011 I pulled it to have it modified for a bit less stall. It was originally rated at 3000 but at freeway speeds it just felt lazy, like a feeling of freewheeling. I hated that.
It feels much better now. Its not as if the converter is so tight that the car is a slug out of the hole. It will boil the tires easily. Maybe with better traction the converter may be a problem.
Posted By: 67Satty

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 07:37 PM

Quote:

recurving a distributor is a 5 minute job so do it yourself and try different things.

Your msd should have came with an advance kit different springs and stops

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/msdbuspset.html

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/disadweigspr.html

you can try the big stop 18 degree?? and stiff springs to slow down the advance to come in later. everything in this game is trial and error to get it best!









Of all the things you've tried and learned how to do, this seems like it would be the easiest and least expensive and most likely to help your problems. Hang in there! After all this, I need to hear a sucess story and that you were able to ride off into the sunset and
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 07:52 PM

Quote:



recurving a distributor is a 5 minute job so do it yourself and try different things.

Your msd should have came with an advance kit different springs and stops






I actually have the Mopar Performance distributor that is built with "Mallory" internals, but I would imagine that the theory is the same.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 08:15 PM

Yea think the mallory has adjustable stops and spring kits are available


this may be the ticket
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/maa-29014(2)1.pdf

Kit
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-29014/overview/
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 10:38 PM

Thanks, Dodgem. I will look into this no matter what else I decide.
I just went for a drive. No leaks anywhere but it is still pinging.
I talked to Jim at Racer Brown. After telling him about the issues here, he thinks that my pitiful .056 quench clearance coupled with high compression is a big factor. He thinks that the real solution is to zero deck the block and run the .039 Fel Pro gasket to have proper quench. He is a believer that even with higher compression, the benefits of quench allow higher compression without detonation. It all sounds great in theory. The zero deck would raise the compression from the current 10.73 to 11.13. Thats 4 tenths!
Jim also suggested running a thinner head gasket as a test. A Cometic .027 would reduce my quench distance to .44 and raise the compression to 11.03.
Another interesting thing from Jim: When I told him that the Lunati cam made more cranking compression than the MP 509, he thinks it could be because of the valve lash! He said the lash acts as a delay in the reaction of the rocker arms. A solid with bigger specs can actually result in less lift and duration than a hydraulic with smaller numbers. In short, my valve lash may be responsible for making the Lunati act smaller than the 509, resulting in MORE cylinder pressure. He thought that I could try tightning the lash on the intake from .020 to .016 and see if that helps.
The car detonates worse now than it did with the 509 cam. I think it is partly due to the bump in cylinder pressure. I'm running a 50/50 mix of 91 and 100 now and it knocks. I think that several months back I wrote that on a 50/50 mix of 91 and 110 it ran great with the 509. The numbers are not an exact comparison though, so I may dump the 5 gallons of 110 I have in and drive it again.

Thinking back to June or July before I bought any parts, I talked to Dwayne Porter. He thought that a zero deck engine would be the best route, but also spoke of having the pistons milled on the valve side maybe .040 to lower compression some. If I ever decide to pull the engine, this may be the way to go. I'd have quench while being around 10.25 to one.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 10:46 PM

Hang in there!
Posted By: 67Satty

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 10:48 PM

Isn't decking your block that much to get your pistons up to zero deck going to open up another can of worms? Or are you talking about new pistons?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 10:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'm more confused now!


& I thought you (we) were making progress here




i don't think you should take all that too literally, at least not yet. i've been following this thread, and there are a lot of knowledgeable people here, and i haven't seen anyone yet say your whole combo is out of whack.


My comment was in jest but yes a bit facetious & Franken is one of the good guys (on here). I am following this thread closely also & we will get resolution. I'm thinking it's gonna take MORE octane or a piston change & all that goes with that. when you build a monster it needs to be fed properly, no other way around it
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/13/13 11:56 PM

Quote:

I am following this thread closely also & we will get resolution. I'm thinking it's gonna take MORE octane or a piston change & all that goes with that. when you build a monster it needs to be fed properly, no other way around it




I just poured in about 3 1/2 gallons of 110 leaded and drove the car. This sucker is scary fast! Not a hint of detonation and it pulls harder than ever. This is with the 17 initial, 30 total timing. I was so giddy when driving it I didn't stop to bump the timing to 20/33.
So it has been determined that the engine in this state will run without detonation as long as I'm using high octane fuel. Even with a carb that may be jetted wrong or a distributor that may not have an optimal advance curve, the high compression engine can run strong.

While I am happy that the knock is gone, I still want to get it to run on 91 octane.

Head gasket thickness is a hot topic, but it is one way to eliminate the detonation. There are many smart guys that tell me that using a thinner gasket will close up the quench distance and cut down on the detonation even with the higher compression. These same guys are often against using a thicker gasket because they feel the wider quench distance removes any benefit that quench was giving.
Being at .056 right now, I have asked numerous times if I was even getting any effects of quench. Very few of these smart guys chimed in. I even asked builders point blank about this and do not remember anyone giving me a clear cut "Yes you have quench" or even a "Heck no you don't".
The arguement for going with a thicker head gasket has been discussed by many. I recall many saying that if all quench is gone at .056, I have no quench to lose by going to a thicker gasket. The gain , however is a reduction in compression which in theory, helps against detonation.
Thinner head gasket or thicker to stop the knock? Maybe in my case, both are possible. I tried the thicker gasket route before and it worked. Maybe I'll consider trying the thinner gaskets this time. For about $220 I can have a pair of the Cometic .027 gaskets.
Posted By: RSNOMO

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/14/13 01:49 AM

Quote:

I tried the thicker gasket route before and it worked.


Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/14/13 02:22 AM

I've been looking at the options for head gaskets at SummitRacing.

Fel Pro # 1105 has a 4.590 bore, .051 thickness and a 13.7 cc. It moves my compression to 10.36.
Cometic # .051 has a 4.380 bore, a .051 thickness and a 12.59 cc. I get a 10.47 CR there.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cgt-c5464-075/overview/make/dodge

Cometic # 5464-075 has a 4.5 bore, is .075 thick and a 19.55 cc. It drops the compression to 9.89! That would surely allow some wiggle room for even running 89 octane gas!
When I ran the .060 Cometics before, I was told I'd have intake gasket alignment issues. Luckily, I did not. These .075 Cometics are .015 thicker. If I decide to go this route again, WHO makes a thicker paper intake gasket? The Fel Pro ones are pretty thin.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/14/13 03:41 AM

What is the compressed thicknes of the current gaskets? You have .056" quench now (which is actually no or very little quench). I am a quench proponent but I think the SCR is too high for quench to take care of you on this. I'd go with that .075" gasket you mentioned. I dont see a problem doubling up on the intake paper gaskets as they are smooth with no beaded/raised edges. Permatex spray "high tack" part #99MA the red stuff is extremely tacky/seals well/goes on light/even would work well for gluing 2 of em together & even some super glue on some areas not near the ports to aid in keeping them connected as you go together. I would vastly lower the SCR which'll give you some wiggle room & also select the cam you want rather than putting up with a compromise choice cam which the vastly lower
SCR will let you run a good curve & give you more power than a higher SCR with the compromised curve which you have now even if you get under the pinging point. In other words with the correct cam then if for example if 9.5 will just stop the pinging I'd go a bit lower then optimize the curve. A bit too low is better than too high. It's all in the curve
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/14/13 03:48 AM

If I could go back and visit myself in 2004 I would have ordered dished pistons and zero decked the block. This would have put me in the mid 9s with quench. I probably could have run 87 octane while still making plenty of power.
I could still do this, but that would be another $1000 in parts, machine work and down time.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/14/13 04:18 AM

When you swap head gaskets I'd take a few CC's out of the combustion chambers also. I think you can come out of this alright
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/15/13 07:21 AM

I almost had the heads hogged out in 2006 when I installed those Cometic .060 head gaskets. The man I spoke with wanted $1000 to port the heads and remove 4 ccs from each chamber. It seemed like a lot back then, but now it seems somewhat reasonable.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/16/13 03:43 AM

I just ordered the Mallory spring kit from Summit. Dodgem posted the link a few posts ago. For $35, its worth a try.
Rick Ehrenberg from Mopar Action likes the use of a two stage timing curve. The instructions on the Mallory packaging show how to achieve this.
Maybe by Wednesday I'll be able to work on the spare distributor and get it in the car. I'll have to drive the car around to use up the high octane gas I have in it now. At 6-7 mpg, that shouldn't take too long!
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/16/13 03:21 PM

Yea think your on the right track get a nice idle advance but slow it down to total maybe all in by 3500?? Give or take.

I still wonder about intake gasket glowing??

Good luck
Posted By: mickm

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/16/13 07:04 PM

Quote:

My comment was in jest but yes a bit facetious & Franken is one of the good guys (on here). I am following this thread closely also & we will get resolution. I'm thinking it's gonna take MORE octane or a piston change & all that goes with that. when you build a monster it needs to be fed properly, no other way around it




robert, my comment about not taking it all too seriously was all the suggestions that FBO made...

just to clear that up!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/19/13 03:15 AM

Quote:

Isn't decking your block that much to get your pistons up to zero deck going to open up another can of worms? Or are you talking about new pistons?




Hey Satty,
Dwaynes idea was to get to zero deck to close up the quench, but at the same time have the valve sides of the pistons milled about .040. This milling would cover about 2/3 of the piston, so calculating compression off of that wouldn't be too hard. The effect that Dwayne was speaking of was a huge gain in quench with a similar volume in the combustion chamber. This would likely result in a similar CR and cranking compression numbers. The expected gain was in quench while still maintaining the power of higher compression.

***Today I mapped the spark curve as it sits in the car. As expected, the 14 degrees of mechanical advance really is all in by 1900-2000 rpms. This distributor had 2 pink advance springs and the tabs were bent out to tighten up the spring tension. I had full advance long before the converter stall speed.
I took my spare distributor and installed 2 orange springs. The curve appears similar but comes on a bit later. The total advance isn't reached until about 2500. I ran the car to test the curve but I didn't drive it. I need to use up the high octane 110 Sunoco that is still in the tank.
I took the first distributor from the car that had the 2 pink springs and changed to 2 brown springs. Some experts suggest using a purple spring and one of another color to have a 2 stage advance. Until I can make sure that it will not detonate at 31 degrees, 32 degrees or so, the 2 stage curve is pointless. My 14 degree advance is short enough to just have a single stage curve.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/19/13 05:07 AM

You may even want to slow it down to have the total in at 3000 or 3500 ??
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/19/13 05:30 AM

I thought so too. I'd need to look for stiffer springs than what came in the Mallory kit.
If anyone knows any tricks for tuning distributors, I'm willing to learn!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/20/13 05:24 AM

I'm still looking at different head gaskets to lower the CR.
The Cometic .075 ones lower the CR to 9.89. That would buy me a lot of octane forgiveness, but I wonder if I need to go that low. They are pricey...$143 each.
These are from Flatout:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fog-900464520

They have a 4.520 bore and a .064 thickness. They would lower the CR to 10.11. They are also $176 for a pair.

The .060 Cometics I used in 2006 lowered the CR to 10.29. The engine didn't ping with those, and that was with the distributor that had the fast advance curve.

The Flatout .064 gaskets are tempting. the 10.11 CR looks like it would get me a little wiggle room in case I got a mediocre batch of gas or if the weather was really hot.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/20/13 02:10 PM

Quote:

If I could go back and visit myself in 2004 I would have ordered dished pistons and zero decked the block. This would have put me in the mid 9s with quench. I probably could have run 87 octane while still making plenty of power.
I could still do this, but that would be another $1000 in parts, machine work and down time.




You could do it with a semi custom Diamond piston , this is assuming the decks were squared in the original build.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/20/13 04:27 PM

Does this thing rattle no matter whose gas is in it? It is not unheard of that regular gets dumped in the premium tank either by accident or design. If you always gas up at the same place, go somewhere else preferably a brand name station.

Make sure it isn't still sucking oil thru the intake. I would hold off on the thick gaskets because the loss of quench will likely hurt more than help. We're missing something here because there are lots of guys here running similar combos without having to resort to race gas.

Kevin
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 02:26 AM

In summary, the 10.7 CR detonated on 91 octane when I had the MP 292/509 cam. I changed to 1.6 rocker arms, bumping the lift to .543 and while it ran a bit smoother, it still knocked. I added 110 Sunoco to a half tank of 91 and the knocking stopped. All along I have wanted to be able to run this engine on 91 octane or less. I asked questions here and elsewhere about what options there are to get there. I took the advice of a guy on another site on the Lunati solid cam I have in the car now. Well, that cam looked great on paper but somehow made things worse. I can still get it to stop knocking with 110 fuel, but that still leaves me miles away from the original goal.
I have tried UPjetting and DOWNjetting the carburetor.
I have tried another carburetor.
I have tried timing adjustments, different distributors, colder spark plugs, new wires, early day (For cooler weather) and the car still knocks at WOT with anything less than the current mix of 110 and 95 octane fuel. I did change the advance springs in the distributor, but all that did was delay the advance by about 400 rpms. Thats not enough to help.
I do not know if the block decks are square. That is an interesting point. I suppose that it is possible to have one or more pistons sitting higher or lower than #1 at TDC. I do know that with #1 piston .017 in the hole and with the .039 head gasket, I am at .056 for quench. I've asked it before and most people seem to think that at that distance, the beneficial effects of quench are minimal if any. It is because of this that I have considered using the thicker head gaskets again.
Regarding the possibility of getting a bad batch of gas or gas labled as 91 that is really 87: I thought of that, but the car has been pretty consistant. I live in Northern CA and have driven the car to LA and back 3 times. I have been dealing with this same problem for years. It is just this year that I have had some $$$ to spend to fix it.

The valley pan has been clean and dry since I replaced it a few weeks back. Looking back at my notes, I found that when replacing the valley pan in the past, I have alternated between using the tin alone as well as using the paper gaskets. I'm embarrassed to admit though that I had the intake manifold torque spec way off. I was only cranking it to just past 12 lbs because I incorrectly thought I read that in the Edelbrock instructions.
This engine has no blowby. The cranking compression numbers are within 4% from highest to lowest. It got closer when I put in the adjustable rockers, probably because the stock type rockers were inaccurate.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 04:07 AM

Fact: You want it to run strong on 91 (fast curve). You have little/no quench. (1) pick the cam YOU want (2) Pick a head gasket(s) that will get the SCR down to where the DCR will not ping on 91 & let you run a fast curve. (3) dial in the dist. Taking some CC's out of the heads will let you not have to go so thick on the gaskets as either way you will have to deal with thicker intake gaskets likely required to make everything line up. Just me if the pistons are high enough to where I could get quench with the right thin gasket I'd mill some reliefs in the piston decks & the heads to lower the SCR then rebalance the crank or possibly heavier pins to make up for what you took off the pistons & as said you can take a "significant" amount off of the pistons before rebalancing is required especially with them being aluminum. If the piston deck is .150" or thicker you are OK. IMNHO no way is quench by itself going to take care of the SCR being that high with crap gas plus you dont have the cam you'd like. I dont think you want to go back into the shortblock so dont take my ramblings in the 2nd half of this serious
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 04:30 AM

Quote:

Fact: You want it to run strong on 91 (fast curve). You have little/no quench. (1) pick the cam YOU want (2) Pick a head gasket(s) that will get the SCR down to where the DCR will not ping on 91 & let you run a fast curve.

IMNHO no way is quench by itself going to take care of the SCR being that high with crap gas plus you dont have the cam you'd like. I dont think you want to go back into the shortblock so dont take my ramblings serious




I like your way of thinking.
For the most part, I am okay with this cam if the engine didn't knock. The idle is decent and with 110 fuel, it runs stronger than it ever has. I expect it to run even better with more spark advance once I lower the CR. It isn't quite as snappy from a start as the 509 but sure feels stronger from the midrange and up.

Maybe I am asking for more than the engine can give. I like the idea of having serious low and midrange power, but doesn't that often mean using a cam that builds more cylinder pressure? The only reason I went with the Lunati solid was to reduce cylinder pressure. THAT totally backfired. I've had trouble finding accurate specs on the Mopar 509 cam intake closing point. The site below shows the specs but I'm not confident that they tell the whole story:

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/mpcam-tech-c.htm#b

Months ago when I was looking at a cam swap as a cure, the only user-friendly online dynamic compression ratio calculator I could find was from Kieth Black. The section where you enter the intake closing point asked for the actual number on the cam card, plus 15 degrees. My Lunati card shows 56.5, add 15 degrees and it comes to 71.5. The link above shows what may be a "gross" number of 74 degrees for the 509 cam. Maybe this is similar to how MP refused to list the @ .050 cam duration for so many years.
IF the MP 74 degree number is an accurate spec, this means that the "bigger" Lunati cam actually has an earlier intake closing. This is likely to be true since the cranking compression went UP by an average of 3 psi per cylinder after installing the Lunati cam.

I agree that while quench may be helpful, I just can't see how going UP in compression to get quench would work out for me.
IF I were somehow able to maintain the same CR while improving quench, I could see that maybe being effective.

Posted By: goldmember

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 04:44 AM

Tighten the intake valve lash .01-.015" and see if it helps. I'm not going to go back through all this but from the start I can see the problem and this is a crutch.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 04:47 AM

Quote:

I agree that while quench may be helpful, I just can't see how going UP in compression to get quench would work out for me.
IF I were somehow able to maintain the same CR while improving quench, I could see that maybe being effective.


(1) I think the scr is too high & the gas (91) too poor to avoid pinging even with good .040" quench. (2) unfortunately that would take a piston change. Decades ago HotRod magazine did a build on a 454 chebby iirc work truck & they vastly increased the mileage & the tradeoff was it lost some power either low or midrange I dont remember & not sure if there was a pinging issue but I think the CR was too high also. I'd call a cam company & ask if that is feasible. It'd be 10 minmutes well spent. Unless they can grind a special cam I think it's gonna take lowering the scr with thicker gaskets & I'm sure a regular cam ain't going to fix this either
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 04:50 AM

tightening the intake vl will close the intake much later and give a clue as to the chance he might get away with a poor combo. Simple stuff.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 05:02 AM

Quote:

tightening the intake vl will close the intake much later and give a clue as to the chance he might get away with a poor combo. Simple stuff.




This makes sense too. Jim at Racer Brown suggested the same thing.
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 05:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

tightening the intake vl will close the intake much later and give a clue as to the chance he might get away with a poor combo. Simple stuff.




This makes sense too. Jim at Racer Brown suggested the same thing.


No suprise at all.
Posted By: mopfried

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 05:04 AM

Im probably all wrong about this, but wouldnt a bigger camshaft make more cylinder pressuer at a higher RPM compaired to a smaller camshaft? I have thought about your build and read all the posts over and over. I am having a similar problem with my standard bore, standard stroke 440. I have 452 heads milled around .100 to make them closed chamberd. I have no quench. Im running a Comp 284XE cam with 1.6 rockers. I just hooked up the wide band and its rich except WOT. I think I need larger jets in the secondarys and a smaller number on the power valve. Anywhay, Not trying to hyjack your thread, but would the more duration, higher lift cam make more cylinder pressure at a higher RPM? If not how does it make more HP? It holds the valves open longer to let MORE air in... at a low RPM it bleeds it off...
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 05:22 AM

I do hope that all of this stuff ends up helping others as well as myself. I have read archived threads on this and many other subjects in the interest of learning.
My understanding is that while Mopfried has a good point about the bigger cam making more cylinder pressure at high rpms, maybe the short time span at that high rpms makes detonation less likely??
Don't worry about anyone thinking your post was hijacking anything. I am open to all points of view.

Anyhow....
I found a Dynamic CR calculator that has that odd "Intake closing PLUS 15 degrees" bit:

https://www.uempistons.com/index.php?mai...e30f95974e64ff7

Using that calculator, the '509 gave me a 7.91 Dynamic ratio. The Lunati gave a 8.09. I was told that a dynamic at 8.0 or below was good enough for pump gas. Maybe they mean 93 octane?
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 06:02 AM

You are on to something. Reduce the peak torque area pressures and you might be ok on pump gas. Don't compare a street mopar to a 10,000+ rpm formula 1 engine.LOL build the correct comp(for the fuel) and then the balance of the build to make a good result. It's not that hard to do.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 07:11 AM

How did you arrive at 10.73:1 compression? Did you actually measure/CC everything yourself? I ask because when I plug in the numbers for a flat top 493 into my calculator with an 84 cc head, .039 1009 4.410 bore gasket -4cc valve reliefs and -.017 deck I get 10.86:1.

The Ross pistons in my 493 were advertised as being .017 in the hole but it only took .007 to actually zero the decks on my '76 block so in actual fact the pistons were only -.007. Now you are at 11.04 if your block was similar. At zero deck you would be at 11.29:1.

I didn't catch all the details on your build so if all this stuff has been already verified and I mean measured by you or your machinist and not assumed because of something wrote on the packaging, I apologize. But if you bought the heads used for instance and assumed they were 84 cc because the PO forgot to tell you he wacked them .060" it would go a long way to explain why your engine is acting like it has a 12:1 CR.

Kevin
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 07:30 AM

Quote:

If I could go back and visit myself in 2004 I would have ordered dished pistons and zero decked the block. This would have put me in the mid 9s with quench. I probably could have run 87 octane while still making plenty of power.
I could still do this, but that would be another $1000 in parts, machine work and down time.




Just an FYI my 493 has zero deck with IIRC 34cc dish. 8.9something:1. Basically makes 500hp and 600 ft/lbs with a .509 cam and it is quite happy to do it with 87 regular on all but the hottest of days.

Kevin
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 08:44 AM

Quote:

How did you arrive at 10.73:1 compression? Did you actually measure/CC everything yourself? I ask because when I plug in the numbers for a flat top 493 into my calculator with an 84 cc head, .039 1009 4.410 bore gasket -4cc valve reliefs and -.017 deck I get 10.86:1.





The heads were new when I bought them in 2003, so the 84 cc number should be pretty close.

My pistons have a 6 cc valve relief. When I enter the numbers, they tell to put a minus sign before the number if it is a DOME but use only the number if it is a dish or a valve relief.
I checked # 1 cylinder to measure the piston height at TDC. It was between .017 and .018 so I err to the high side on that one.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 08:48 AM

Quote:



Just an FYI my 493 has zero deck with IIRC 34cc dish. 8.9something:1. Basically makes 500hp and 600 ft/lbs with a .509 cam and it is quite happy to do it with 87 regular on all but the hottest of days.

Kevin




That is fantastic. 500 HP is enough to blow off any street tire! It would be great to be able to run on any available octane without worry.

There has always been something "off kilter" with this engine. When I ran it on a chassis dyno in 2005, it only made 369 HP at the tires. Even accounting for a 20% loss through drivetrain etc, thats only 443 HP. I've wondered if the 2 1/2" exhaust is a bottleneck.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/21/13 01:48 PM

I cannot help to think that possibly there are still a couple pieces of mis-information that keeps this thing going in circles. My opinion (I think ) is that you are on the edge with this combo being pump gas friendly, but have believed up to this point that you could get there by tweaking the details.

2 1/2 exhaust is not the problem, unless it has a failed muffler, but some one already brought this up and you concluded that this was not the problem.

When you get to the point (may be there now) that you just want to fix the problem, or symptom, here is my suggestion: Take the heads off and have someone with a cnc program (like MCH) cut the chambers to the desired cc's, and put it back together with the 0.027 gaskets.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/26/13 03:07 AM

I am currently considering a few options for head porting. As soon as I find someone I trust, I'll dig back in.
I am hoping that the porting and additional spark timing will more than offset the slight loss of compression.
Posted By: dezduster

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/26/13 01:29 PM

I have been following this thread from the beginning. Reading every post every idea and watching for results from those suggestions.
The one suggestion from SUPERBEEDAVE asking about cam timing was the only one that I feel was not addressed/double checked.
I am not a know it all, or a done it, seen it, sailed it, scaled it, dove deeper come up dry guy.
But I have seen the result of a cam installed improperly timed.It ran soft down low had crappy idle characteristics pinged until higher in the rpm range then it ran unimpressively. Oh it needed premium fuel at 4500ft elevation at 9ish compression. Exhaust would glow, required weird jetting and timing settings.
The timing set was an edelbrock set their markings are vague as are the directions.
You have stated this is your first serious performance build perhaps a mistake in cam degreeing has you here. This is not a slam nor me criticizing you your efforts or anyone else's. Just trying to help. Some have said your engine is defying normal logic that logic applies if valve/cam timing is correct if not??? Who knows. Good luck.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/26/13 09:49 PM

The comment on verifying the actual cam timing and intake lobe seperation reminded me that it is so critcial it should be made mandatory on all cam instruction cards I have had the misfortune by stupidly aligning the dots without verifying the cam location, to find out that some cams and timing sets are not what they should be There way off My first roller cam install I aligned the dots and went through a lot of problems with that motor and dealing with the cam maker, Sig Erson in 1972, to resolve it.I found out later the cam dowel was off 10 degrees retarded, most Mopar motors hate having the cam retarded OP, I agree that you should take both heads off again and check all eight pistons deck hieght I've seen stock rods vary .009 in length in the same set That was on a set of 1963 M.W. rods, the lowest piston was at -.026 and the highest one was at -.017 (do the math on one hole with varying the deck hieght .009 to see what the compression ratio changes) Lots of gremlins out there, Mr Murphy loves jinking hot rodders Trust me on that from personel expereinces with cars and motors, let alone peolpe and parts One thing you should keep in mind is that most things that don't work properly and don't make sence the way they are operating have a reason for those results Stick in there, you will find it
Posted By: bonefish

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/27/13 12:51 AM

i have never had a roller cam and chain set up that was anywhere close dot to dot.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/27/13 03:15 AM

Thank you for the suggestions about the cam timing.
This was my first time degreeing in a cam myself. I watched several youtube videos, asked questions here and on other forums and read what I could find elsewhere. I wrote elsewhere in another post that I was having trouble getting the degree wheel and crank turning hub to stay in position. The hub I was using had a loose fit on the Woodruff key and it allowed some slop. I finally just pulled the hub off and bolted the wheel directly to the crank using the dampner bolt. From there I found that the dot to dot marks actually did result in a 106 centerline, exactly what was called for on the cam card. I have the luxury of leaving the car idle where I park it. I am lucky that I don't have to be in any hurry to get it back together either. It certainly is not my daily driver!
While I have the heads off I can make a piston stop to lay across the block deck surface to check TDC on every hole. Wouldn't it be odd to find that I have 8 different compression ratios?

I should have mentioned that I actually have built 3 other 440 engines. THIS is the only one with aftermarket rods, a longer stroke crank, aluminum rocker arms and a solid lifter camshaft.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/27/13 08:17 AM

I've seen .003 differences in deck hieghts on the worst to the best on one motor using good aftermarket steel rods and very good race pistons with a good stroker carnksahft I guess nothing is perfect anymore BTW, there are several different ways to get confused on measuring piston deck hieghts I used to rock the piston over to the cam side of the block and measure off of the piston deck thier because that was the way NHRA would measure it with there dial indicator on a mag base when you got torn down for setting a record or winning a race I now rock them back and forth and measure both the inside and outside and then average the two to get a average deck heights I have seen .003 difference in change when measuring straight over the wrist pin location by rocking the piston forward and backwards from front side to back side Lots of varaibles out there
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 09/27/13 05:11 PM

Get them heads off and have a look going with bigger CC gaskets
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 10/08/13 03:41 AM

I got the right side head off of the car today. The head gasket looked fine. NO signs of any burns near the fire ring. The two long bolts securing the #8 cylinder seemed harder to crack loose than the others. No signs of any leakage, but then again there was no reason to find any. I had consistant compression numbers and zero external leaks.
I'll get the Left head off tomorrow and take them to my machinist on Wednesday. I may wait to order head gaskets until I know if the heads need to be surfaced much. If he needs to take .010 off to get them squared up, I may need thicker than the planned .075 head gasket to get the compression under 10.0 to one.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 10/08/13 03:58 AM

Cool less compression will help for sure.
Nice to hear no fire ring issue.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 10/08/13 03:02 PM

You should have them open up and unshroud the valves in the combustion chamber especially the intake, heads will flow better and material removed will help lower compression.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 10/09/13 03:45 AM

I got the left head off today. Looking at the head gaskets again, I found that while the fire rings were not burned, there were a few rough spots. I'm unsure if the detonation could have worn them rough or if they became rough, then the detonation began.
I have read the term.. Unshroud the valves before. Does this mean to clear material away from the valves to lessen restrictions?
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 10/09/13 04:11 PM

Quote:


I have read the term.. Unshroud the valves before. Does this mean to clear material away from the valves to lessen restrictions?




Yes , put the head gasket on you plan to use with dowels in the holes and lightly scribe the head gasket pattern onto the head, open the chamber up on either side of the valves to just inside the scribe line and blend it into the chamber.

Then replace the pistons with a zero deck dish piston to lower your compression and gain quench
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 10/09/13 06:27 PM

rough spots on the gasket are likely from burning/glowing. Unshrouding the valve is opening up the combustion chamber around the closed valve where the combustion chamber wall disrupts the smooth flow of air into the cylinder.

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 10/10/13 01:48 AM

Quote:



Then replace the pistons with a zero deck dish piston to lower your compression and gain quench






I know that these threads of mine are probably annoying to many of you. They have been a fantastic learning tool for me though and I hope they helped others.
I am to the point where the next time I feel the need to pull this engine, I will most certainly replace the pistons and zero deck the block. I wish I had better advice in 2004 when I built this engine. Over the years I have read a lot and I've listened a lot. My next build will surely have fewer problems.
********************************************************************

Interesting point about unshrouding. I talked with my machinist today. He agreed that there is power to be found there, but that the Edelbrock heads are less shrouded than stock iron heads, so the gains may be less there. The 2" TTI header gasket has huge ports that show that big gains may be found by gasket matching the exhaust ports. The intake ports are pretty clean so I'm not sure just how much they can be hogged out.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 10/10/13 02:11 AM

Just thinking unshouding can open the CC's up a bit as well as flow to help lower compression.

A think gasket and a bigger bore size at that will help a lot!
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 11/21/13 02:35 AM

Quote:

Just thinking unshouding can open the CC's up a bit as well as flow to help lower compression.

A think gasket and a bigger bore size at that will help a lot!





I just got back from the machine shop and expect to get the heads back tomorrow. Pictures will follow. They look great. The man was finishing up with a fresh valve job and new stem seals. They measured at 83 ccs.
I did the math on the compression calculator and I will end up at 9.77 with an .086 head gasket and 10.0 even with the .075 gasket.
Over the weekend I cleaned the tops of the pistons and found that they were actually .012 in the hole instead of the .017 number that I wrote before. I think the machinist may have resurfaced the decks when I had the block in for honing in 2011.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 11/22/13 01:54 AM

Quote:

I did the math on the compression calculator and I will end up at 9.77 with an .086 head gasket and 10.0 even with the .075 gasket.



which are you going with
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 11/22/13 04:24 AM

Not sure which gasket I will use. Being at 10.0 to one was the target I was leaning toward once I decided to go with a thicker gasket.

The heads are home and I am getting ready to order gaskets, head bolts and a few other odds and ends.

Attached picture 7932276-DSCN1895.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 11/22/13 04:25 AM

The man said that the castings seemed more porous than other aluminum heads he has ported.

Attached picture 7932280-DSCN1896.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 11/22/13 04:27 AM

These exhaust ports are huge!

Attached picture 7932283-DSCN1900.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 11/22/13 04:29 AM

I have 2 inch TTI headers. This is an old gasket he used as a template to blend. Before, there was between 3/16" and 1/4" of material inside the gasket edge.

Attached picture 7932285-DSCN1906.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 11/22/13 04:30 AM

This is the first set of heads that I have ever had done.

Attached picture 7932287-DSCN1907.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 11/22/13 04:32 AM

He didn't enlarge the intake ports much, just blended the edges and cleaned up further down toward the valves.

Attached picture 7932289-DSCN1901.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 11/22/13 04:33 AM

#2

Attached picture 7932290-DSCN1902.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 11/22/13 04:34 AM

Looking forward to getting this dude back on the road!

Attached picture 7932291-DSCN1903.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/11/13 07:23 AM

Quote:



Just an FYI my 493 has zero deck with IIRC 34cc dish. 8.9something:1. Basically makes 500hp and 600 ft/lbs with a .509 cam and it is quite happy to do it with 87 regular on all but the hottest of days.

Kevin




This is really tempting. When the time comes to pull this engine, I am going with this route.

This has been a really long road. I pulled the heads on October 6th. Its been over 2 months. I ordered the Cometic head gaskets over 2 weeks ago. The just arrived yesterday. I've been itching to get back to the car but just as I have all the stuff, I get busy with other things! Life often gets in the way of having fun,
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/12/13 02:46 AM

Quote:

I ordered the Cometic head gaskets over 2 weeks ago. The just arrived yesterday.


Which ones & what is the SCR going to be
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/12/13 05:21 AM

The .075 gaskets move the Static CR to 10.07 to one with a Dynamic of 7.5.
It should run on 89 octane if I need to, but I'll run 91 first to make sure.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/12/13 05:40 AM

Alright & if it's good on 89 you might even be able to switch cams if desired. Holler how it turns out. After 5K plus views we're all pulling for ya on this aggravating deal
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/12/13 07:48 AM

Quote:

Alright & if it's good on 89 you might even be able to switch cams if desired. Holler how it turns out. After 5K plus views we're all pulling for ya on this aggravating deal




for me it's like a car wreck ...
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/13/13 05:28 AM

Someone said something naughty


...

here's a bump , what's the verdict ?
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/13/13 05:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Alright & if it's good on 89 you might even be able to switch cams if desired. Holler how it turns out. After 5K plus views we're all pulling for ya on this aggravating deal




for me it's like a groundhog day car wreck ...




Fixed.

It is apart. The problem can be easily fixed right now with a 88 to 90 cc chamber and 0.027" gasket. The right head porter would have done it for nothing.
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/13/13 05:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Alright & if it's good on 89 you might even be able to switch cams if desired. Holler how it turns out. After 5K plus views we're all pulling for ya on this aggravating deal




for me it's like a car wreck ...


I'd consider it a train wreck but wtf do I know.LOL it will be intertaining whatever the outcome.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/13/13 05:31 AM

Dumb question maybe, but is there enough meat in the chambers to take them out to that cc number? Do they have to cut out the quench pad to get there?
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/13/13 05:42 AM

I must have missed it as I was going to reply.

At any rate instead of spending $200 on .027 Cometics, Mancini has .022 shim gaskets for $32.95 for the pair. It will put your quench at .034 which is bordering on dangerously close but maybe not so dangerous if you keep the RPM reasonable like 5500-5800. If it gets better or makes it go away, you will know you are on the right track and can then decide if the Cometics are worth the $$.

If it just makes it go from bad to worse you are only out $32.95 for the education.

Kevin
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/13/13 05:54 AM

Can those shim gaskets be used with aluminum heads? I have a "fuzzy memory" of reading here that some guys used them with a spritz of copper coat on them?
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/13/13 01:45 PM

Quote:

Dumb question maybe, but is there enough meat in the chambers to take them out to that cc number? Do they have to cut out the quench pad to get there?




Yes, there is enough meat. They do not cut out the quench portion of the chamber. It does get a little smaller though.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/13/13 04:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Alright & if it's good on 89 you might even be able to switch cams if desired. Holler how it turns out. After 5K plus views we're all pulling for ya on this aggravating deal




for me it's like a car wreck ...


I'd consider it a train wreck but wtf do I know.LOL it will be intertaining whatever the outcome.




I was going to say train wreck but I saw a few car wrecks driving from Orlando to Boston last weekend ...
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/14/13 12:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Alright & if it's good on 89 you might even be able to switch cams if desired. Holler how it turns out. After 5K plus views we're all pulling for ya on this aggravating deal




for me it's like a car wreck ...


I'd consider it a train wreck but wtf do I know.LOL it will be intertaining whatever the outcome.




I was going to say train wreck but I saw a few car wrecks driving from Orlando to Boston last weekend ...




I thought you intentionally chose to not use train as it might look a little insensitive from a timing standpoint.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/14/13 03:32 AM

Quote:

Can those shim gaskets be used with aluminum heads? I have a "fuzzy memory" of reading here that some guys used them with a spritz of copper coat on them?




A Cometic is just a multi layer metal shim style gasket so I would say yes you can use them but I have heard also that the steel can leave a "mark" if you will on the head. A thin coat of Coppercoat would likely help prevent that.

Kevin
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/14/13 04:43 AM

I had a guy way back on another site state that he could not get his Cometics' to seal until he sprayed all 3 layers with Permatex "high tack" part # 99MA the red stuff in a spray can . I've used it on paper/fiber and composition gaskets with excellent results as it is extremely tacky, goes on light & seals very well. I've used Permatex copper coat spray on steel head gaskets but I did not like the way it went on (too thin/runny). I'm wondering if aluminum (silver?) spray paint would do better (on steel shim gaskets) which has been recommended but I have yet to try it.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/14/13 04:47 AM

Cometics require a pretty precise finish on the decks or they can leak.

Kevin
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/14/13 04:56 AM

Quote:

Cometics require a pretty precise finish on the decks or they can leak. Kevin


I wonder if that was the guys' problem
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 12/17/13 07:45 AM

Quote:

Cometics require a pretty precise finish on the decks or they can leak.

Kevin




The last set I ran was in 2006. I had the heads lightly surfaced and cleaned the block with a red Scotch Brite. I had no leaks then. Other than the Cometics, I've only used Fel Pro blue gaskets. They leave no chunky residue after removal. I asked my machinist today. He said the decks need to be clean but not mirror/glass smooth. He felt here should be some degree of "grit" to the surface.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/01/14 05:45 AM

I was finally able to spend some time on the car today. I expected to work all day but the boss wanted to leave before noon! Heck yeah, I'm always happy to take an early day.

The thick head gaskets sure take up most of the dowels in the block! I made sure the decks and heads were super clean, then set the gaskets, then heads. I used new ARP bolts and torqued in 3 steps: 25,55 and 70. I even went a 4th time at 70 to make sure.
The pushrods and rocker arms are on. I lashed the valves at .014 INT and .016 EXH. I read here that aluminum heads grow .006 when the engine is up to temp. The Lunati cam card calls for .020 INT, .022 EXH hot lash. Kinda odd that even with me holding the allen set screw still, the lash still grows a bit when I tighten the locknut. I'm spoiled from years of using the stock " set it and forget it" stuff.
There is still plenty left to do. I'm hoping that I'll have it running over the weekend.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/01/14 06:00 AM

Quote:

I'm hoping that I'll have it running over the weekend.


I'm (we're) waiting
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done, time to tune. ** Uh-OH !!! - 01/01/14 06:25 AM

Considering that this particular thread (One of many I started) begun in late August, this has been a long time coming.
I usually turn stuff around much quicker. I got back to work in early September and the jobsites have all been so far away, I'm pretty tired by the time I get home.
I noticed some discoloring on the edges of 2 cylinders at the RH cylinder deck. It looked like carbon buildup or something. It bordered at the cylinder and was about an inch long. In all this search for the cause of detonation, I wonder if it means anything. One of the old head gaskets did have some rough spots at the fire ring. Nothing burned, just sort of textured.
Once it is back together, I'll recheck the compression numbers.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/01/14 09:13 PM

Quote:

I was finally able to spend some time on the car today. I expected to work all day but the boss wanted to leave before noon! Heck yeah, I'm always happy to take an early day.

The thick head gaskets sure take up most of the dowels in the block! I made sure the decks and heads were super clean, then set the gaskets, then heads. I used new ARP bolts and torqued in 3 steps: 25,55 and 70. I even went a 4th time at 70 to make sure.
The pushrods and rocker arms are on. I lashed the valves at .014 INT and .016 EXH. I read here that aluminum heads grow .006 when the engine is up to temp. The Lunati cam card calls for .020 INT, .022 EXH hot lash. Kinda odd that even with me holding the allen set screw still, the lash still grows a bit when I tighten the locknut. I'm spoiled from years of using the stock " set it and forget it" stuff.
There is still plenty left to do. I'm hoping that I'll have it running over the weekend.




how many threads of the adjuster are BELOW the rocker arm , I'm ASSuMEing that you used the same pushrods ...

... good to see this train wreck barreling along ...
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/01/14 09:32 PM

Quote:

... good to see this train wreck barreling ...


Be nice double R
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/01/14 10:50 PM

I am being nice ...
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/02/14 03:02 AM

Quote:



how many threads of the adjuster are BELOW the rocker arm , I'm ASSuMEing that you used the same pushrods ...





I haven't checked that. The adjusters were set to the old setup when I installed them at first. I had to turn them CW about 1 1/2 turns to tighten up the lash. It looks like about 3-4 threads show above the lock nuts.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/02/14 03:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:



how many threads of the adjuster are BELOW the rocker arm , I'm ASSuMEing that you used the same pushrods ...





I haven't checked that. The adjusters were set to the old setup when I installed them at first. I had to turn them CW about 1 1/2 turns to tighten up the lash. It looks like about 3-4 threads show above the lock nuts.




What is showing above the nuts is not what I asked about sir ... BELOW THE ROCKER ARM

How about taking a picture ?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/02/14 03:38 AM

I was just telling what I knew at the time.
Here are a few pictures.

Attached picture 7981214-DSCN1933.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/02/14 03:39 AM

Number 2, still the RH head.

Attached picture 7981216-DSCN1934.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/02/14 03:40 AM

There may be 2 threads showing from underneath. Maybe I need better reading glasses?

Attached picture 7981221-DSCN1935.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/02/14 03:50 AM

Resized, cropped and expanded:

Attached picture 7981249-DSCN1933.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/02/14 03:51 AM

Again:

Attached picture 7981251-DSCN1934.JPG
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/02/14 03:52 AM

Last one for now.

Attached picture 7981254-DSCN1935.JPG
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/02/14 04:52 AM

Quote:

I am being nice ...


I would have to agree
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/02/14 04:49 PM

One positive outcome from the thicker head gasket is now your pushrods aren't too long , if anything they might be a tad too long still. I'm having a hard time seeing 2 threads there , but if that is what you see BELOW the rocker and not below where the threads in the rocker stop then you are good to go .
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/02/14 06:14 PM

Quote:

Again:


If you have a half a thread showing below the bottom of the rocker arm and the pushrods are not rubbing the rocker arm your golden as far as I'm concerned
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/05/14 05:05 AM

I hear about how some guys can R&R heads or entire engines in record time, but I have had mixed luck doing so. Maybe some of it is because of the car.....
I have to say that having 2" headers makes this sort of job a real pisser. To get the heads off, the headers have to come out. To get them out, the center link gets unbolted, the trans linkage too. This of course requires lifting the car to what feels like an almost unsafe height so the angle is right for installing or removing these headers. I'd never switch to manifolds, but I can see why many people stick with them.
Going back together, most of the header bolts are easily reached except near #1 and #2 tubes. I sometimes forget to tighten down the starter leads before bolting the starter in place. They are almost impossible to reach afterwards with the headers in place.
I'm almost there, just a few things on the top side to finish. I have both the Fel Pro intake paper gaskets and the thicker Mr Gasket ones. I figure that the thicker head gaskets may require thicker intake gaskets to manitain proper intake port alignment.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/06/14 04:41 AM

The car is running again!

I just finished up and washed the Charger for the first time in months. I ended up using the Mr gasket intake gaskets and the port match looked pretty good. I currently have the timing set to 19 initial, 33 total. I'll run the remaining 110 octane fuel out and fill the tank with some 91. With the fresh gas I'll be able to determine how much more timing I can tolerate. I see that many guys run between 34 and 36 degrees total. I have a Rev-N-Nator ECU and would like to try that to see if there are any gains to be had. I tried it before with the 509 cam and .039 gaskets and it detonated worse with the Rev-N-Nator even with timing backed off.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/06/14 04:54 AM

Quote:

The car is running again!


alright! ...
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! - 01/13/14 06:25 AM

I was finally able to drive the car today. ZERO knocking at any time. I'll admit that it was only 50 degrees out and that I'm running a 90/10 mix of 91 octane and the rest of the 110 that was in the tank since before the teardown. The car should still be fine on straight 91 in the Summer.
There is more tuning to do. The idle is rougher and has less vacuum at the same rpm as before. I'm running too rich as well. The Air/Fuel guage shows me to be between 12.0 and 13.0 at part throttle cruise and under 12.0 at WOT. It wasn't much different before the head gasket swap though. Before, I had hoped that running a bit richer might help quell the detonation. I've read that optimal power is often found with readings much leaner than what I'm showing so I'll try some smaller jets and adjust the idle mixture screws. I could probably use more initial timing since I am at 19 initial right now.
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