Posted By: 70VERT
Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 04:50 AM
My 440 makes about 90# of oil press at 1000 RPM cold and around 70# at 2000 while hot. Is this abnormal or anything I should try and rectify?
Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure
Posted By: Jerry
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 04:58 AM
Too much oil pressure is not necessarily a bad thing, however it wastes hp to raise the pressure and make sure your filter isn't going to explode or at least balloon.
Posted By: astrobuf
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 05:07 AM
Yes, in my opinion. Oil pressure is a function of pumping capacity, viscosity and clearances . If your pressure is high due to too much capacity, your wasting power. If it is too high due to high viscosity, your wasting power and risking inadequate flow, if it is due to less than spec'd clearances, you risk bearing damage.
Spec'ing a high flow pump with standard clearances often results in this situation. Don't do it.
Astrobuf
Spec'ing a high flow pump with standard clearances often results in this situation. Don't do it.
Astrobuf
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 05:29 AM
What pump do you have ? To me that too high at that low an RPM.
Posted By: dOoC
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 06:22 AM
Quote:
My 440 makes about 90# of oil press at 1000 RPM cold and around 70# at 2000 while hot. Is this abnormal or anything I should try and rectify?
But what does it do .... hot at 6k rpms ?..... 2 much pressure costs power turning the pump 2 much PLUS it costs power getting the excess oil off the cyl walls AND running the rotating assembly through all the oil mist and droplets ...
Posted By: mopar_man
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 12:08 PM
The pump is not the problem , its doing is job and the pressure will go to 1000 psi if the pump shaft could take it.
Your problem could be that the relief valve is set too high.
Is the engine new ? have you verified that the pressure is correct using an external gauge screwed into an oil port in the block. you may have an issue with your oil filter. You may have an engine that is tight on clearances . Is your oil gauge mechanical or electrical ?
I would confirm that my readings are correct firstby install ing a gauge into an oil port leaving your own gauge in place .
Your problem could be that the relief valve is set too high.
Is the engine new ? have you verified that the pressure is correct using an external gauge screwed into an oil port in the block. you may have an issue with your oil filter. You may have an engine that is tight on clearances . Is your oil gauge mechanical or electrical ?
I would confirm that my readings are correct firstby install ing a gauge into an oil port leaving your own gauge in place .
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 01:13 PM
Quote:
But what does it do .... hot at 6k rpms ?..... 2 much pressure costs power turning the pump 2 much PLUS it costs power getting the excess oil off the cyl walls AND running the rotating assembly through all the oil mist and droplets ...
You are confusing pressure with flow, they tend to be opposite as pressure is a measurement of restriction to flow.
What viscosity oil are you running. Bet it's thick, I run, at most, 10w30, sometimes 5w30. I would seriously consider dropping the viscosity down, especially if you are running 20w50. I would also closely inspect the pressure relief valve because it is obviously not working.
Posted By: 70VERT
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 03:59 PM
I'm running 10W-30 and using a stock oil pump. The engine has been running this way for about 5000 miles. I never really questioned it becouse I always thought more was better 
I rarely take it over 5K but at those revs and hot it pushes about 55-60#.
I rarely take it over 5K but at those revs and hot it pushes about 55-60#.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 04:49 PM
Quote:
I'm running 10W-30 and using a stock oil pump. The engine has been running this way for about 5000 miles. I never really questioned it becouse I always thought more was better
That is bang on just go on with your life!
Posted By: bboogieart
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 04:55 PM
Quote:
My 440 makes about 90# of oil press at 1000 RPM cold and around 70# at 2000 while hot. Is this abnormal or anything I should try and rectify?
Maybe I'm not reading this right. Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't there be more pressure at higher rpm's?
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 05:11 PM
Assuming the pressure reading is correct, here are thoughts.
1. The #1 thing I thought of was you're going to shear off the oil pump drive.
2. I am assuming that the reason the oil pressure is lower at low rpm is this is a "first thing in the morning" reading and the oil hasn't warmed up yet.
3. You certainly don't need that amount of oil pressure.
4. I'd immediately reduce the viscosity of the fill and see what happens. For example, cheapest would be drain off a couple of quarts and put in a couple of quarts of 5W-20.
The engine oil system uses a constant volume pump pumping into a controlled leak. Disregarding minor internal leakage that increases with pressure, the pump pumps a given flow or gpm that's directly proportional to engine rpm. So for example, if it pumps 10 gpm at 1000 rpm it'll pump 60 gpm at 6000 rpm. The pressure you see in the pressure gauge is a RESULT of that amount of oil being forced through the controlled leak. Increase the size of the leak and resultant pressure will be lower at any rpm. It's that simple.
Viscosity effects act like increasing or decreasing the size of the leak. Higher viscosity oil doesn't leak as much, so you get a nigher resultant pressure, all other things being constant.
R.
The oil pump drive is the weak link in this system. As stock oil pump drives have been known to shear, I'd get some attention to yours immediately.
1. The #1 thing I thought of was you're going to shear off the oil pump drive.
2. I am assuming that the reason the oil pressure is lower at low rpm is this is a "first thing in the morning" reading and the oil hasn't warmed up yet.
3. You certainly don't need that amount of oil pressure.
4. I'd immediately reduce the viscosity of the fill and see what happens. For example, cheapest would be drain off a couple of quarts and put in a couple of quarts of 5W-20.
The engine oil system uses a constant volume pump pumping into a controlled leak. Disregarding minor internal leakage that increases with pressure, the pump pumps a given flow or gpm that's directly proportional to engine rpm. So for example, if it pumps 10 gpm at 1000 rpm it'll pump 60 gpm at 6000 rpm. The pressure you see in the pressure gauge is a RESULT of that amount of oil being forced through the controlled leak. Increase the size of the leak and resultant pressure will be lower at any rpm. It's that simple.
Viscosity effects act like increasing or decreasing the size of the leak. Higher viscosity oil doesn't leak as much, so you get a nigher resultant pressure, all other things being constant.
R.
The oil pump drive is the weak link in this system. As stock oil pump drives have been known to shear, I'd get some attention to yours immediately.
Posted By: 70VERT
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 05:58 PM
Not that I'm totally confused, should i thonk about some sort of adjustment? 5W -20 I had in there before didn't make a huge difference
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 06:37 PM
Does the engine have a high-volume pump? If so, changing to a standard pump will probably bring the pressure back to normal.
Posted By: justinp61
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 06:54 PM
Years ago I had a 440 with a high pressure pump in it, in cold weather it would peg a 100# gauge at start up. At temperature it ran almost 75# at cruise rpms. The only oil I ever ran in it was Havoline 10-40. After beating on it for five years I rebuilt it and installed a standard pump.
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 06:58 PM
10 w 30
when I rebuilt my 440 in 83 it would go 100 cold and 85 or more hot at 2000. at the end of the 1/4 many years later would like over and always see 110 never hurt anything street or strip.
In 2006 I put a Big milodon pump on and then an adjustable oil presssure regulator and now have it set so cold 2000 is 75 and hot 2000 is 75 and 7000 rpm is still 75.
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/milbrbadregk.html
don't over think it just be happy you have good pressure!
when I rebuilt my 440 in 83 it would go 100 cold and 85 or more hot at 2000. at the end of the 1/4 many years later would like over and always see 110 never hurt anything street or strip.
In 2006 I put a Big milodon pump on and then an adjustable oil presssure regulator and now have it set so cold 2000 is 75 and hot 2000 is 75 and 7000 rpm is still 75.
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/milbrbadregk.html
don't over think it just be happy you have good pressure!
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 07:45 PM
Quote:Two things come to mind, first is the oil pressure gauge accurate? I would chek it first and if it is you may want to trim the bypass spring so it has 50 to 60 lbs at 5000 RPM plus with hot oil. I have seen a 10 HP gain on the engine dyno testing 30 Wt oil at 130 F then letting the motor run until the oil temps where at 170 F starting the next dyno test
Not that I'm totally confused, should i thonk about some sort of adjustment? 5W -20 I had in there before didn't make a huge difference
I later switched to 10W30 Wt and saw around 5 HP diffeerrnce in cool oil versus warm oil, last time testing was with 5W20 Wt and I saw no changes in power from 70F to 190 F oil temps. with that oil 
I'm mainly a bracket racers so controlling oil temps is not always doable at the track during competion 
The second thing on robbing HP with the oil pump also takes a tiny bit more fuel and robs the wallet at the same time I like free HP 
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 08:01 PM
I'd want less: a bit more power/less stress on the hex/less chance of burst filter. You're running thin oil. what I'd do is what Cab said is confirm the gauge accuracy which should be done either way. As said might not be a dealbreaker (as long as the filter/hex doesn't break) but with the easy access of a BB pump I'd pull the reg & see if it's free & clip a coil off of the spring & then see what you get (but confirm the gauge accuracy first). Is this a DD or raced or a street brawler?
Posted By: 1fastrunner
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/22/13 10:24 PM
I had so much once, it came out through the filter. The guy that had the car before me ran the blue (I think for the highest pressure), but that wasn't enough for him....he added washers?
I was lucky it was discovered close to home and I noticed it right away.
I was lucky it was discovered close to home and I noticed it right away.
Posted By: ahy
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/23/13 03:20 AM
Quote:Quote:
I'm running 10W-30 and using a stock oil pump. The engine has been running this way for about 5000 miles. I never really questioned it becouse I always thought more was better
That is bang on just go on with your life!
Agree. 55-60 PSI hot at speed is ideal. It is bound to be higher when cold. Just don't push it too much when cold (like any performance engine). 5W30 may ease the high OP at start up but I wouldn't sweat it. More important is to make sure you are running high zinc oil or a zinc additive with a flat tappet.
Posted By: astrobuf
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/23/13 03:39 AM
Quote:
Years ago I had a 440 with a high pressure pump in it, in cold weather it would peg a 100# gauge at start up. At temperature it ran almost 75# at cruise rpms. The only oil I ever ran in it was Havoline 10-40. After beating on it for five years I rebuilt it and installed a standard pump.
High pressure and high volume pumps are two entirely different things. I high pressure pump simply has a higher rated relief spring. A high volume pump has a higher displacement volume.
Astrobuf
Posted By: justinp61
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/23/13 04:41 AM
Quote:Quote:
Years ago I had a 440 with a high pressure pump in it, in cold weather it would peg a 100# gauge at start up. At temperature it ran almost 75# at cruise rpms. The only oil I ever ran in it was Havoline 10-40. After beating on it for five years I rebuilt it and installed a standard pump.
High pressure and high volume pumps are two entirely different things. I high pressure pump simply has a higher rated relief spring. A high volume pump has a higher displacement volume.
Astrobuf
You are correct.
Posted By: imfixinmopars426
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/23/13 12:20 PM
rule of thumb....10psi/1000 rpm.
Posted By: TooMany62s
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/23/13 01:13 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
Years ago I had a 440 with a high pressure pump in it, in cold weather it would peg a 100# gauge at start up. At temperature it ran almost 75# at cruise rpms. The only oil I ever ran in it was Havoline 10-40. After beating on it for five years I rebuilt it and installed a standard pump.
High pressure and high volume pumps are two entirely different things. I high pressure pump simply has a higher rated relief spring. A high volume pump has a higher displacement volume.
Astrobuf
You are correct.
Not correct. A high volume pump has more displacement and a higher bypass pressure. http://www.melling.com/Aftermarket/Tech-Tip-Videos
Posted By: mopowers
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/23/13 04:35 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Years ago I had a 440 with a high pressure pump in it, in cold weather it would peg a 100# gauge at start up. At temperature it ran almost 75# at cruise rpms. The only oil I ever ran in it was Havoline 10-40. After beating on it for five years I rebuilt it and installed a standard pump.
High pressure and high volume pumps are two entirely different things. I high pressure pump simply has a higher rated relief spring. A high volume pump has a higher displacement volume.
Astrobuf
You are correct.
Not correct. A high volume pump has more displacement and a higher bypass pressure. http://www.melling.com/Aftermarket/Tech-Tip-Videos
Not all high volume pumps are high pressure
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/23/13 05:12 PM
I've never seen a HV pump that didn't have the black high pressure spring.
Posted By: moper
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/23/13 06:09 PM
Quote:
I've never seen a HV pump that didn't have the black high pressure spring.
x2
Posted By: justinp61
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/23/13 06:43 PM
When I bought the pump, I could've got a standard pump, a high volume or the high pressure. In my 19 year old wisdom I bought the high pressure. I fully understand pressure is a result of interference in the flow path. That being said I don't know if a high volume with a deeper set of rotors capable of more volume would pump more oil at 60 psi than my high pressure pump did at 75 psi. I had to run an extra quart of oil in the stock pan to keep it from pumping it dry.
I figure the high pressure pump (that I still have) was nothing more than a standard pump with a stiff or shimmed spring.
I figure the high pressure pump (that I still have) was nothing more than a standard pump with a stiff or shimmed spring.
Posted By: ahy
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/23/13 11:14 PM
If a standard volume pump can get you adequate hot running oil pressure (eg 55-60 psi for a hot street engine) and adequate hot idle oil pressure (I like at least 20 psi) that's the way to go. Bigger rotors just push more oil past the bypass, use power and generate heat. Usually in a healthy engine, meeting the idle requirement is toughest.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/24/13 01:22 AM
Quote:
If a standard volume pump can get you adequate hot running oil pressure (eg 55-60 psi for a hot street engine) and adequate hot idle oil pressure (I like at least 20 psi) that's the way to go. Bigger rotors just push more oil past the bypass, use power and generate heat.
& 75 psi in a system will flow more than 60 psi will no matter what pump is generating the pressure. 75 is high but not a dealbreaker. I'd work on the spring & lower it.
Posted By: BSB67
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/24/13 04:19 AM
Quote:
... and around 70# at 2000 while hot.
Quote:
I rarely take it over 5K but at those revs and hot it pushes about 55-60#.
These two statements seem to contradict each other. Are you saying hot at 2000 rpm oil pressure is 70 psi, and drops to 55 psi at 5000 rpm?
Posted By: ek3
Re: Such a thing as TOO MUCH oil pressure - 08/24/13 05:25 AM
Quote:smokey yunick put it best . you need 10 lbs of oil pressure per 1,000 rpm. if your engine will see 9,000 rpms , then it will benefit from 90 lbs of oil pressure . with the tight clearance in todays engines, coupled with the advancement of synthetic oils, 15-20 lbs hot @ idol with 65 lbs maximum is the standard for most street strip engines. many older engines with less quality machine tolerances will need the heavy weight oils to keep pressures up when hot. remember this... an engine which is on oil by-pass is not filtering the oil...get your pressure corrected and you will solve all issues.
My 440 makes about 90# of oil press at 1000 RPM cold and around 70# at 2000 while hot. Is this abnormal or anything I should try and rectify?