Moparts
Self Learning EFI Systems
Posted By: Fastback67
Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/09/13 11:44 PM
So... I have a 383, a 400, and a 440, hanging around my garage awaiting rebuild. I have been toying with the idea of mounting one of those new self learning EFI systems (MSD ATOMIC, EZ EFI) on one of them.
I know that in the past, there have been a great number of attempts and failures with the older style user programmable EFI systems. Whether this was due to operator error, or simple capability issues I do not know, as I have had no first hand experience with any of these conversion systems myself.
Anywho... I was just wondering if anyone here could shed some light/experience on the subject. These new self contained, self learning systems from MSD, EZ EFI and the like, seem to be almost foolproof, but you know what they say... If it sounds to good to be true, it usually is.
Any and all advice or comments would be welcome.
Thanks!
Posted By: redmist
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/10/13 05:10 AM
I went with Megasquirt, and am into my whole setup for less than the EZ-EFI and the likes. The plus side, is mine is full sequential port injected spark, and fuel.
The down is it takes some time to get done! Glad I did it though, It's way more tunable, and option packed compared to the bolt on systems.
ETA:
It "self learns" I drove around all day today, and let the system tweek the VE tables itself.
How much time did you run the auto tune for? Did it take a few hours? I have a megasquirt and found it to be a lot of work. With a prebuilt system you can bolt and go. With the megasquirt how much time do you expect if this guy went with the megasquirt before he would be driving the car? Did it take you days to install and tune or weeks, months?
Craig
Posted By: redmist
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/10/13 06:02 AM
It took me months...
But I soldered together everything, ECU, STIM board, Stim X... Everything. I also sourced all the sensors, pigtails, and injectors, and other stuff out of the junkyard. I built a custom bushing to adapt a Jeep 4.0 Cam Position Sensor so it drops right in the distributor hole and engages the oil pump drive.
It took a while, and I had to do a ton of reading, but WOW what a system! I have only let it auto tune for about 30 minutes, but it ran better right off the bat on my default maps then it ever did with a carb.
Now knowing what I know about EFI, I would be frustrated by the bolt on stuff... What if I want to change dwell on my coils? What if I want to run a second MAP sensor for altitude correction on the fly? Two stages of Nitrous? Launch Control? What If I want to bump the timing up at a specific low point in my idle to "catch" it should an accessory draw down the engine? What about data logging? How about dual fuel maps?
The MS3 Trounces the other systems at a fraction of the cost, and you get all the above built right in, and that's just scratching the surface.
I understand some people are not looking for that, but I wanted to throw it out as an option. I had ZERO experience with EFI three months ago, and now I can walk out, turn the key, and it fires right up! I can even drive away without waiting for it to warm up because I have set the WUE Warm Up Enrichment maps to compensate.
It honestly runs like a modern car, and I haven't even really tuned it yet.
Just an option.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/10/13 02:13 PM
Quote:
It took me months...
But I soldered together everything, ECU, STIM board, Stim X... Everything. I also sourced all the sensors, pigtails, and injectors, and other stuff out of the junkyard. I built a custom bushing to adapt a Jeep 4.0 Cam Position Sensor so it drops right in the distributor hole and engages the oil pump drive.
It took a while, and I had to do a ton of reading, but WOW what a system! I have only let it auto tune for about 30 minutes, but it ran better right off the bat on my default maps then it ever did with a carb.
Now knowing what I know about EFI, I would be frustrated by the bolt on stuff... What if I want to change dwell on my coils? What if I want to run a second MAP sensor for altitude correction on the fly? Two stages of Nitrous? Launch Control? What If I want to bump the timing up at a specific low point in my idle to "catch" it should an accessory draw down the engine? What about data logging? How about dual fuel maps?
The MS3 Trounces the other systems at a fraction of the cost, and you get all the above built right in, and that's just scratching the surface.
I understand some people are not looking for that, but I wanted to throw it out as an option. I had ZERO experience with EFI three months ago, and now I can walk out, turn the key, and it fires right up! I can even drive away without waiting for it to warm up because I have set the WUE Warm Up Enrichment maps to compensate.
It honestly runs like a modern car, and I haven't even really tuned it yet.
Just an option.
Unfortunately 75%, or more, of the people that would like to switch over won't because of all the work involved. The drop on, self tuning throttle body setups appeal to those people, especially if they could do it using a 6psi mechanical fuel pump 
Posted By: justinp61
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/10/13 02:44 PM
The new one from Holley looks interesting, Terminator, I believe it's called.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/10/13 03:29 PM
Quote:
The new one from Holley looks interesting, Terminator, I believe it's called.
Edelbrock just came out with one also that looks a lot like the FAST system ...
Posted By: jcc
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/10/13 04:35 PM
Quote:
It took me months...
But I soldered together everything, ECU, STIM board, Stim X... Everything. I also sourced all the sensors, pigtails, and injectors, and other stuff out of the junkyard. I built a custom bushing to adapt a Jeep 4.0 Cam Position Sensor so it drops right in the distributor hole and engages the oil pump drive.
It took a while, and I had to do a ton of reading, but WOW what a system! I have only let it auto tune for about 30 minutes, but it ran better right off the bat on my default maps then it ever did with a carb.
Now knowing what I know about EFI, I would be frustrated by the bolt on stuff... What if I want to change dwell on my coils? What if I want to run a second MAP sensor for altitude correction on the fly? Two stages of Nitrous? Launch Control? What If I want to bump the timing up at a specific low point in my idle to "catch" it should an accessory draw down the engine? What about data logging? How about dual fuel maps?
The MS3 Trounces the other systems at a fraction of the cost, and you get all the above built right in, and that's just scratching the surface.
I understand some people are not looking for that, but I wanted to throw it out as an option. I had ZERO experience with EFI three months ago, and now I can walk out, turn the key, and it fires right up! I can even drive away without waiting for it to warm up because I have set the WUE Warm Up Enrichment maps to compensate.
It honestly runs like a modern car, and I haven't even really tuned it yet.
Just an option.
True success stories are always nice to hear 
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/10/13 04:42 PM
Great read. Thanks for you guys pioneering the way for us on the slow side.
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/10/13 05:03 PM
Thanks for the input guys! Much appreciated, keep it coming!
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/11/13 01:59 AM
Well, there's nothing I like better than building something from scratch, especially when it comes to electrical gadgets, but the bottom line here is... I do not have that kind of time these days. I already have numerous open projects occupying what little time I have, so researching parts and scouring salvage yards is pretty much out of the question at this particular time. It is good to hear a few EFI success stories for a change however. I've read so many horror stories in the past. I guess it was just a matter of time before some of these issues would finally be worked out.
That said... if I do an EFI system at this time, it will probably have to be one of the newer plug & play systems.
Posted By: davenc
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/11/13 02:36 AM
Redmist,
Your system looks amazing! Would you mind detailing out all of the parts that go into your EFI setup?
The Edelbrock manifold is obvious, but what did you use for injectors, fuel rails, throttle body, IAT, MAP, TPS, coils, etc? What about the fuel system?
Posted By: 72d100
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/11/13 03:22 AM
Quote:
Redmist,
Your system looks amazing! Would you mind detailing out all of the parts that go into your EFI setup?
The Edelbrock manifold is obvious, but what did you use for injectors, fuel rails, throttle body, IAT, MAP, TPS, coils, etc? What about the fuel system?
ive been wanting to try a megasquirt for awhile now
Posted By: VincentVega
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/11/13 03:29 AM
Great job with the Megasquirt. I always wanted to do this, but I just haven't bumped into the confluences of time and money yet. I would like to use it for a turbo 225. already got the dutra duals
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/11/13 02:58 PM
redmist
I was checking out your post over at DC.com...
Your killing me lad
I'm a DIY kind'a guy, which means I really enjoy doing that sort of stuff!
Posted By: gpuller
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/11/13 06:24 PM
I was looking into the self learning EFI systems and from what I've found is they dont like cams with over 250 deg of duration. My 440 has the old MP 284/484 cam, self learning EFI isnt goin to like that.
I like what quicksilver440 is doing. He's putting together EFI using LS1 parts.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...&PHPSESSID=Been digging around trying to find someone close that could do the tuning. Found a place but haven't contacted them to see if its something they would want to do.
Now if Redmist would start mass producing his cam sensor adapter.
I looked at his build and started reading on the MS site and was lost in no time. Building the brains of the system isn't for me. He does some awesome work!
Reed
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/12/13 02:06 PM
Quote:
I was looking into the self learning EFI systems and from what I've found is they dont like cams with over 250 deg of duration. My 440 has the old MP 284/484 cam, self learning EFI isnt goin to like that.
Reed
284 is the Advertised Duration for the MP cam... The EFI system manufactures are looking for duration at .050, which in your case would be 241, so your cam is fine.
Posted By: gpuller
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/12/13 03:56 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I was looking into the self learning EFI systems and from what I've found is they dont like cams with over 250 deg of duration. My 440 has the old MP 284/484 cam, self learning EFI isnt goin to like that.
Reed
284 is the Advertised Duration for the MP cam... The EFI system manufactures are looking for duration at .050, which in your case would be 241, so your cam is fine.
Good point, thanks for the clarification.
I'm also running a MP electronic ignition. Haven't seen anybody run that ignition with one of the EFI kits. Is it possible and will it work? If I'd have to up grade, I'd just as soon use that money for an LS1 type set up.
Still learning...
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/12/13 04:10 PM
When it comes to the prepackage Self learning kits offered by Holley, Eddy, MSD, EZ etc... Pretty much any ignition type will work.
If you decided to go the full Megasquirt route, that would be different... at least it would be pointless in my opinion to settle for anything less than full ignition control. If your going that route, go full out and use the controller to it's designed potential.
The prepackaged kits have a good deal of potential as well. Yes, they are plug & play, but they do have options available too depending on the kit. Manufactures are simply pushing the simple plug & play side of the kits in their advertising for mass appeal. Granted the options are still very limited when compared to a Megasquirt system, but you have to look at it from a standpoint of what you actually need or want. Most folks would be happy just having a simple reliable EFI system for their classic vehicle. Something simple to mount and easy to use, that will increase the vehicles reliability and performance. Manufactures of these new kits understand this.
Posted By: redmist
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/14/13 12:29 AM
Oh wow! Lots of interest in the MS build.
Here is a link to the build start to finish for those super interested, I detailed the build fairly well to try and make it so people were not so scared of it.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,99432.0.html Basic rundown of parts is:
*deep breath*
440, .30 over 10:1 E-heads, Comp XS-282 Solid
MS3X Controller
LS Individual coils (LQ9 off a 2003 Yukon)
32 lb-hr injectors out of a ford raptor 6.2
VR sensor out of a ford rustang
TPS, IACV, MAT, and MAF sensors are off of a 2003 Saturn
CPS is adapted down with a custom bushing I made to use a 2003 Jeep 4.0 Cam Sensor
EGO Correction is an AEM wideband
Fuel system is a Walbro 255 to some cheep frozen boost.com -8 lines and fittings
Posted By: 72d100
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/14/13 04:31 AM
Quote:
Oh wow! Lots of interest in the MS build.
Here is a link to the build start to finish for those super interested, I detailed the build fairly well to try and make it so people were not so scared of it.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,99432.0.html
Basic rundown of parts is:
*deep breath*
440, .30 over 10:1 E-heads, Comp XS-282 Solid
MS3X Controller
LS Individual coils (LQ9 off a 2003 Yukon)
32 lb-hr injectors out of a ford raptor 6.2
VR sensor out of a ford rustang
TPS, IACV, MAT, and MAF sensors are off of a 2003 Saturn
CPS is adapted down with a custom bushing I made to use a 2003 Jeep 4.0 Cam Sensor
EGO Correction is an AEM wideband
Fuel system is a Walbro 255 to some cheep frozen boost.com -8 lines and fittings
i just read that entire build 3 times. the worst part for me is gonna be the cam sensor since mines a b block
Posted By: Swedcharger67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/14/13 10:38 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I was looking into the self learning EFI systems and from what I've found is they dont like cams with over 250 deg of duration. My 440 has the old MP 284/484 cam, self learning EFI isnt goin to like that.
Reed
284 is the Advertised Duration for the MP cam... The EFI system manufactures are looking for duration at .050, which in your case would be 241, so your cam is fine.
With the MegaSquirt system you don't need to use the manifold air pressure as an input parameter for the naturally aspirated engine control, thus you can use whatever long duration cam you like.
You can set up the MegaSquirt to just use the RPM value and Throttle Position Sensor value as inputs for the injection and ignition control (plus of course air temp, engine temp, ambient air pressure etc.). This is the way I'm going to use it in my stroker build, and that type of control (called Alpha-N) already works very well in my high performance Ducati motorcycle.
Posted By: DJVCuda
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/14/13 02:52 PM
I've had the EZ EFI system up and running for a few years now - no problems - best thing I did was get a rock valley gas tank with the pump in the tank.
It has been on since 2010 and I have had to replace a TPS sensor once while in Carlisle - one stop at advance auto and I was back in buisness - It still ran just was on its base tune with no self learning
Posted By: jcc
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/14/13 05:22 PM
Nice framing of the engine shot
I like.
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/17/13 01:28 PM
Quote:
I've had the EZ EFI system up and running for a few years now - no problems - best thing I did was get a rock valley gas tank with the pump in the tank.
I have a "new in the box" tank that I was thinking of converting over, but I still don't know which would be the cheaper option at the moment, buying one or making one.
Nice setup by the way! Love the dual quads!
Posted By: DJVCuda
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/17/13 01:43 PM
They did an excellent job but you can weld a sump in from them too.
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/21/13 12:28 AM
Well, we've had a good responce here from the MegaSquirt team, but we haven't heard to much at all from the Self Learning EFI users, with the exception of Dave's Fast EZ EFI Dual Quad system post.
I've been looking at these systems pretty closely myself... the big four anyway, MSD, EDDY, FAST, and Holley. The on-line literature these guys provide for their systems could best be described as lacking, at best. Each system definitely has it's good points and bad, so you really need to dig below the surface and get beyond the obvious.
Posted By: Bad340fish
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/22/13 01:00 PM
A friend of mine put an EZ EFI kit on an LS powered mustang. He's pretty happy with it. I am not sure how good his setup on his carburator was but it went faster with the EFI. He had one problem during setup and initial drive but it was something he misread in the instructions. Tech support got him lined out. The car runs 11.teens @120ish.
Posted By: Twostick
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/22/13 05:29 PM
There is 3rd party software available for some "regular" systems to make them "self" learn. I used Co-Pilot for my Commander Pro 950 system. It got all the holes in my fuel map filled to where I would say it's 98%. I'm running a TBI on a 493 with the 108 LSA Mp509 cam so I don't think it would ever be "perfect". It eliminated transitional flat spots on the fly and helped make my completely wrong choice of cam tolerable.
Kevin
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/23/13 12:37 PM
I was thinking about doing a tank mod and putting the fuel pump in the tank, but I just came across a brand new WELDON 600A self priming pump on the cheap, so I think I'm going to go that way now.
http://www.weldonracing.com/product/4/A600-A_(-10_inlet___outlet)_Flow_Through.html
Posted By: jcc
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/23/13 03:56 PM
That looks like a nice pump, but, no E-85 compatibility, and can in be mounted in the future "in tank"?
I was also surprised with a #10 outlet they suggest only a #6 fuel regulator return, I wonder if regulator manufactures agree?
Posted By: johnscudashop
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/23/13 05:29 PM
The problem I see when welding in a fuel pump into a stock steel tank is the welds on the inside of the steel tank if left unexposed (bare steel) rust sets in after a while from condensation . Plus todays fuel has ethonol in it and ethonol absorbs water. I ended up buying a aluminum tank from Hotrodcity Garage so I wouldnt have that problem
Posted By: DJVCuda
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/23/13 11:36 PM
They look great but the stock sending units and exhaust runs do not work anymore. In fact the Tti setup no longer bolts up either.
Rick valley can do a stock sized tank in stainless if you are worried about it and the sender and exhaust still fits like lis supposed to.
Posted By: johnscudashop
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/24/13 12:51 AM
I am running 3 inch TTI pipes out the back with plenty of room.
Posted By: johnscudashop
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/24/13 12:57 AM
The Hot Rod city Tanks also bolt in place using the stock tank straps. At about half the cost of a Ricks stainless Tank
Posted By: johnscudashop
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/24/13 01:01 AM
The fuel sender also works well , The only mod I had to do is make the sending units wire longer .
Posted By: DJVCuda
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/24/13 02:22 AM
Sorry my comments are geared towards the abodies
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/25/13 10:26 PM
Plenty of perfectly good tried and tested tank sealers out there, that will handle rust, and any type of fuel. That said, a stock tank for my 67 B-Body is less than $190. I'm pretty sure that if I wanted to, I could cut, fabricate, weld, and seal the tank when I'm all done, for maybe another $70 or so.
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/25/13 10:38 PM
Quote:
I was also surprised with a #10 outlet they suggest only a #6 fuel regulator return, I wonder if regulator manufactures agree?
I believe they mean at least a #6 (minimum)
For whatever reason, a lot of folks will run a smaller return than their supply.
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/26/13 06:10 PM
Quote:
That looks like a nice pump, but can in be mounted in the future "in tank"?
From Jim at Weldon Racing...
Quote:
Yes it can, if you really need to, but I don’t recommend it just from the fact that the pump is quiet and pulls fuel without a problem. There are some out there that believe if you drop the pump in the tank, it’ll quiet it down and keep it cool…… not as much as you think, if you start out with a louder fuel pump it’ll still be loud.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/26/13 11:14 PM
Thank you
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/27/13 09:04 PM
Quote:
Thank you
My pleasure.
A little extra info is always good.
Posted By: HUSTLESTUFF
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/29/13 01:42 PM
I happen to have a story about self learning EFI systems. I entered a contest that Holley had for Long Haulers on the Hot ROd Power Tour. They were going to install a terminator EFI at the Birmingham stop of the tour. I found out before the tour that I was one of five finalist before I left California. Well I won it. I did load the deck by getting a new tank and welding in a -8 pick up like I do for most of my cars that have high hp engines, but had not done that for this stock 440 w .484 cam and wasn't planning on doing so, but since they were installing it during the event, I figured they might just pick a car that they didn't have to drop the tank on.
The install was pretty straight forward using my stock 3/8 sending unit for the pump and we used the -8 for the return just for ease of installation in a parking lot. I mounted the pump on the leafspring hanger (SS Spring)and used the earls superstock hose. The EFI mounts in place of the carb and i put the regulator where the washer bottle was and mounted the computer next to the battery. Again simple parking lot install. I had to weld a bung for o2 sensor before the tour.
The car fired right up and ran just fine. Had a couple of times when i went WOT that it had a little delay so they upped the "accelerator pump" and after that no problems. No more keeping the car running by playing with the pedal in the morning.
I drove the 68 Charger RT a total of 7622 miles for the Power Tour. Keep in mind the 850 DP was tuned on a smog machine before I left California. I dyno'd the car in Arlington and in Charlotte with a gain of about 5 HP and 12ft/lb after the efi. The milage was only slightly better with the efi.
After dropping my brother off in Baton Rouge, La., I drove home in two 17 hr days without any problems doing 80 mph (limit 75) most of the time. The holley pump is very quiet.
Herb McCandelless also did the tour and couldn't figure out why that Charger was jacked up in the back and had a carb under the Back tire. I saw him at the mopar tour outside of Chattanooga and he told me to change intake from torker to performer RPM so that will happen next week. Holley also said it would perform better with that manifold as well.
Overall I love it. Very easy to install, self learning is a no brainer. I have Chrysler electronic ignition so no timing adjustments (just hooked to coil). I'm just glad I won it!!!
Posted By: rapom
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 06/29/13 05:02 PM
Nice to get some feedback on the Terminator system. Not too much real world info on those.
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 07/01/13 12:37 AM
Yes, thanks for the input, much appreciated!
I also saw today that Fast has added a second unit to their list. Rated to 1200 HP.
http://www.fuelairspark.com/fas/efi-systems/ez-efi-2-0-self-tuning-fuel-injection
Posted By: Fastback67
Re: Self Learning EFI Systems - 07/01/13 05:22 PM
New WELDON
Self-Priming Pump arrived today. This should do quite nicely.
For the price I paid, I just couldn't pass it up.
http://www.weldonracing.com/product/4/A600-A_(-10_inlet___outlet)_Flow_Through.html
