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Roller rockers for the long term investment

Posted By: Adam71Charger

Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/09/13 08:14 AM

I've read a lot of posts on this forum and others about roller rockers. I've also talked to my machine shop and hughes, harland sharp and mancini. My budget is about $800. My lift should stay at .600 or under. The car will be wide open throttle as much as possible but will be a street driven car. Im looking for the best, most durable, longest lasting rockers in my price range.

From what Ive heard and read, Im leaning towards the hughes aluminum and Im interested to know if the cryo freezing is just a gimmick or if it's all they say it is. I almost went with the comp ultra pro magnum steel rockers but I read on their site they are needle bearing type and Im shy to that type. My other option was the crane ductile aluminum, but I read the new ones are not built as well as the old style. Then, there is the Mancini labeled harland sharps, they are the best price out of all of these, but havent heard from anyone who's used them. Am I missing any? I have no experience with any of these setups, and havent seen any recent threads on them... anything new or changed with any of these rockers that I haven't read about already?
Posted By: Jjs72D

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/09/13 08:26 AM

Mancini racing has a kit for $480 that is made by Harland Sharp for Mancini. The kit comes with the mounting hardware too.
Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/09/13 06:37 PM

Quote:

Mancini racing has a kit for $480 that is made by Harland Sharp for Mancini. The kit comes with the mounting hardware too.



I got the Mancini set-up for my big block build. Haven't used them yet but they look nice. It's a complete set-up too. I threw down for the billet holdowns too.

And then there's the American made rockers by Dove..............

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Dove%20Rocker%20Arms.htm
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/09/13 10:20 PM

Personally I would never run a rocker that wasn't either bronze bushed or roller bearing. I don't like running aluminum on a steel shaft - seen too many cases of galling. I don't know what your concern would be with rollers bearings. As for cryo treatment ... it works. Whether its needed or worth the expense is entirely personal.
Posted By: 383man

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/09/13 10:44 PM

I have been using these Hughes for over 2 years in my street car. They are still holding up very good. Ron

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/09/13 10:58 PM

Quote:

Personally I would never run a rocker that wasn't either bronze bushed or roller bearing. I don't like running aluminum on a steel shaft - seen too many cases of galling. I don't know what your concern would be with rollers bearings. As for cryo treatment ... it works. Whether its needed or worth the expense is entirely personal.



If you go with an alum body rocker bronze bushed is the best , get banana groove shafts also.
Posted By: RSNOMO

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/09/13 10:59 PM

After the 'customer service' I observed from Hughes several years ago, they wouldn't get a dime from me...

HS...
Posted By: ek3

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 12:05 AM

Quote:

I've read a lot of posts on this forum and others about roller rockers. I've also talked to my machine shop and hughes, harland sharp and mancini. My budget is about $800. My lift should stay at .600 or under. The car will be wide open throttle as much as possible but will be a street driven car. Im looking for the best, most durable, longest lasting rockers in my price range.

From what Ive heard and read, Im leaning towards the hughes aluminum and Im interested to know if the cryo freezing is just a gimmick or if it's all they say it is. I almost went with the comp ultra pro magnum steel rockers but I read on their site they are needle bearing type and Im shy to that type. My other option was the crane ductile aluminum, but I read the new ones are not built as well as the old style. Then, there is the Mancini labeled harland sharps, they are the best price out of all of these, but havent heard from anyone who's used them. Am I missing any? I have no experience with any of these setups, and havent seen any recent threads on them... anything new or changed with any of these rockers that I haven't read about already?

nothing beats stainless... I have run the same crower enduros on a gm engine for 10 years @ 1:65 and 1:7 ratios with no issues ever .7500 rpm oval track punishment at that. bent plenty of valves but never had a rocker failure.
Posted By: ahy

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 02:36 AM

The Comp cast alloy steel "pro magnum" rockers may be just right for your application. Durable and work well as shipped up to about .6" lift. Higher lifts and pressures benefit from a bushing. I'm running a set on a 496 with .55 lift and no problems.
Posted By: Adam71Charger

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 03:16 AM

Quote:

After the 'customer service' I observed from Hughes several years ago, they wouldn't get a dime from me...

HS...



They wernt very friendly w/me when I called, and seemed pretty annoyed when I asked some technical question about their products. But I've never heard a bad thing about their rockers
Posted By: Adam71Charger

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 03:23 AM

Quote:

Personally I would never run a rocker that wasn't either bronze bushed or roller bearing. I don't like running aluminum on a steel shaft - seen too many cases of galling. I don't know what your concern would be with rollers bearings. As for cryo treatment ... it works. Whether its needed or worth the expense is entirely personal.



My concern with roller bearings is longevity. It seems like most of the forces on the rocker arm would be concentrated on only some of the bearings and would wear them faster than the others. I was very interested in getting steel or iron rockers and getting them bushed, but I've only read about 1 place that does it, RAS, and I have no idea if they still do it or if its even the same company or owner
Posted By: Adam71Charger

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 03:25 AM

Quote:

The Comp cast alloy steel "pro magnum" rockers may be just right for your application. Durable and work well as shipped up to about .6" lift. Higher lifts and pressures benefit from a bushing. I'm running a set on a 496 with .55 lift and no problems.



See I thought these were solid rockers that could be bushed, but they are actually needle bearing rockers
Posted By: ek3

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 03:35 AM

the neddle bearing rockers will never wear out . they will carry any load "you" plan to put on them. get a set like the crower enduro's in STAINLESS STEEL and never buy another set.
Posted By: 1968RR

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 03:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The Comp cast alloy steel "pro magnum" rockers may be just right for your application. Durable and work well as shipped up to about .6" lift. Higher lifts and pressures benefit from a bushing. I'm running a set on a 496 with .55 lift and no problems.



See I thought these were solid rockers that could be bushed, but they are actually needle bearing rockers


I was planning on buying Comp's Pro Magnum rockers a few years ago, but decided against them because (if I remember correctly) they're bushed and DON'T have needle bearings. I could be wrong, though...
I ended up going with Harland Sharps. The guys on the race board swear by them and I haven't had any problems with them so far. But I would be sure to make sure clean and inspect any new rockers you buy for shavings (but especially the Harland Sharps).
Posted By: B5 Bee

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 03:58 AM

Quote:

the neddle bearing rockers will never wear out . they will carry any load "you" plan to put on them. get a set like the crower enduro's in STAINLESS STEEL and never buy another set.



This advice won't help.
He's looking for shaft rockers so he must have a SB or BB. The only rockers Crower makes for Mopars are for the stud mount V8 Magnum and V10.
Posted By: ahy

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 04:59 AM

Comp pro magnum are plain bearing rockers. No roller bearings on the shaft but roller tip. Geometry "over the tip" on my BB was excellent. there are no fatigue concerns with extended use as with aluminum rockers . The only drawback is a tendency to gall the shafts with high lifts and spring pressures. With lift under .6" shouldn't be a problem.
Posted By: m88mark

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 07:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Personally I would never run a rocker that wasn't either bronze bushed or roller bearing. I don't like running aluminum on a steel shaft - seen too many cases of galling. I don't know what your concern would be with rollers bearings. As for cryo treatment ... it works. Whether its needed or worth the expense is entirely personal.



My concern with roller bearings is longevity. It seems like most of the forces on the rocker arm would be concentrated on only some of the bearings and would wear them faster than the others. I was very interested in getting steel or iron rockers and getting them bushed, but I've only read about 1 place that does it, RAS, and I have no idea if they still do it or if its even the same company or owner

I think RAS is Rocker Arms Unlimited now.
Posted By: mopardude318

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 04:28 PM

I have 2 sets of Hughes Roller rockers. 1.5's on my hot street 318 for 2 years now, 4000 miles. No issues.

1.6's on my 408. They are a very good rocker. Hughes customer service has always been good to me...
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 06:22 PM

One of the lucky ones!


If the rocker has a decent lubricant supply, the bushed rocker has fewer moving parts, hence, fewer chances to break. Look at what Isky is doing with its roller lifters.
Needle bearings are so last century!

Although, with that being said, a decently specified and lubricated needle bearing or roller bearing will last a very very long time.

R.
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 06:25 PM

Trouble with the needle bearing whether on the tip or the felcrum is that the load is only on one side and they rock back and forth. The needles seldom if ever rotate to a different position on the shaft.
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 06:38 PM

Those of us who have been reading you for years know of your dislike of roller rockers and 2.02 intake valves in smallblocks. All well and good, but if the bearing was PROPERLY SPECIFIED, it will last for a long long time.

R.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 06:49 PM

Quote:

Trouble with the needle bearing whether on the tip or the felcrum is that the load is only on one side and they rock back and forth.



Oh, and a bushing is different because it rotates ?!?!? NOT !!!

Bushings or bearings on the fulcrum could be debated for years with no solid evidence that one is better than the other on a rocker of equal quality. However, a roller tip will absolutely have less friction and wear that a non-roller tip. In this case, Isky got it right with hardened inserts but I have seen many Cranes where the valve stem has worn a groove into the tip.
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 07:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Trouble with the needle bearing whether on the tip or the felcrum is that the load is only on one side and they rock back and forth.



Oh, and a bushing is different because it rotates ?!?!? NOT !!!

Bushings or bearings on the fulcrum could be debated for years with no solid evidence that one is better than the other on a rocker of equal quality. However, a roller tip will absolutely have less friction and wear that a non-roller tip. In this case, Isky got it right with hardened inserts but I have seen many Cranes where the valve stem has worn a groove into the tip.

did not mean to infer that but the needle wear leads to failure sooner than a bushing would fail. Ever chased a bunch of little needles around through an engine and seen the damage that they can do????
Posted By: Adam71Charger

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 07:45 PM

Quote:

Those of us who have been reading you for years know of your dislike of roller rockers and 2.02 intake valves in smallblocks. All well and good, but if the bearing was PROPERLY SPECIFIED, it will last for a long long time.

R.



What does properly specified mean?
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 08:19 PM

Means its rated for the loads its going to handle - has the proper length and width and diameter - except in this case the diameter has been dictated by Chrysler
Posted By: Adam71Charger

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 09:27 PM

Quote:

Comp pro magnum are plain bearing rockers. No roller bearings on the shaft but roller tip. Geometry "over the tip" on my BB was excellent. there are no fatigue concerns with extended use as with aluminum rockers . The only drawback is a tendency to gall the shafts with high lifts and spring pressures. With lift under .6" shouldn't be a problem.



I just figured that out about the bearings being in the tip side of the rocker, not the shaft. I talked to comp cams, they say the rockers are bushed with a 'bronze like' materiel and can handle up to 650lbs open pressure. I really like the fact that they are steel.. and I thought the issue with galling was taken care of by having bushings in the rocker?
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 09:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Comp pro magnum are plain bearing rockers. No roller bearings on the shaft but roller tip. Geometry "over the tip" on my BB was excellent. there are no fatigue concerns with extended use as with aluminum rockers . The only drawback is a tendency to gall the shafts with high lifts and spring pressures. With lift under .6" shouldn't be a problem.



I just figured that out about the bearings being in the tip side of the rocker, not the shaft. I talked to comp cams, they say the rockers are bushed with a 'bronze like' materiel and can handle up to 650lbs open pressure. I really like the fact that they are steel.. and I thought the issue with galling was taken care of by having bushings in the rocker?



The have lots of area for oil flow too.

Attached picture 7737852-1_16_11Sm02.JPG
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 09:56 PM

Just like any engine bearing, you want a material that is soft enough to absorb some debris rather than damage the mating surface. Bronze will do this and although aluminum is also soft and will absorb debris, the aluminum may be so soft that the debris stays loose enough to float around and cause the aluminum to gall. Its the only explanation I can think of.
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 10:34 PM

Quote:

Those of us who have been reading you for years know of your dislike of roller rockers and 2.02 intake valves in smallblocks. All well and good, but if the bearing was PROPERLY SPECIFIED, it will last for a long long time.

R.

Go to hughes sight if you don't believe me. http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/3rockerarms282007.php
Here is an excerpt:The rockers only rock in a small arc of approximately 25 or 30. If the rocker or the shaft actually rotated the needles would live longer. Here again is a conundrum. The smaller needles spread the load over more needles, but they are more fragile you just cant win! Some of the roller rockers even have needle rollers in the roller at the tip of the rocker. The unit loading is very high with needle bearings. All these extra parts are just more points of potential failure.
It isn't fun and games looking for needles in an engine when one comes apart. Seen it happen more than once.
As for the 2.02 valves I have nothing against them in the right application. Personally 1.88's have fit me better and given me better ET's. Also friends have gone from 2.02's back to 1.88's for more torque out of the turns on thier dirt tracker. To each there own.
Posted By: Pyper70

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/10/13 10:54 PM

I had bought the infamous "needle bearing" type from 440 Source thinking it was a good purchase. I heard about meltdown due to those needle bearings and didn't want to be a statistic. I sold them and got my money back, put the money towards Harlands. I bought them from Todd at CompWedge (a member here on this board) I told him my setup (apparently the Eddy heads require some extra machine work which he provided) They bolted right on, no shimming, no guess work. FWIW, you do have to take them apart, just take a picture and put it back that same way. You have to let them soak in oil for a day or so then bolt on to the heads. I am honestly very happy with them but I only have about 1000 miles on the motor since the install....

Posted By: ahy

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/11/13 01:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Comp pro magnum are plain bearing rockers. No roller bearings on the shaft but roller tip. Geometry "over the tip" on my BB was excellent. there are no fatigue concerns with extended use as with aluminum rockers . The only drawback is a tendency to gall the shafts with high lifts and spring pressures. With lift under .6" shouldn't be a problem.



I just figured that out about the bearings being in the tip side of the rocker, not the shaft. I talked to comp cams, they say the rockers are bushed with a 'bronze like' materiel and can handle up to 650lbs open pressure. I really like the fact that they are steel.. and I thought the issue with galling was taken care of by having bushings in the rocker?



Yep. Sounds like they made it better with the bushing. Great rocker.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/11/13 02:45 AM

I bought my Harland Sharps in 1993. They haven't changed a thing since. If there were problems with them don't you thick they'd have addressed the issue by now ?!?!?!
Posted By: Adam71Charger

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/11/13 03:02 AM

Quote:

I bought my Harland Sharps in 1993. They haven't changed a thing since. If there were problems with them don't you thick they'd have addressed the issue by now ?!?!?!



Thats impressive.. is this a street motor?
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/11/13 01:54 PM

Been on 3 street motors. All low milage mind you.
Posted By: Adam71Charger

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/28/13 09:21 AM

I went with comp magnum rockers. They just arrived today. Im pretty happy with the rockers themselves, but Im wondering if I should send back the shafts.. are these scuffs normal? Are they going to cause problems? When i got the box, nothing was secured inside, everything was just banging around haphazardly like a lego set.

Posted By: Adam71Charger

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/28/13 09:26 AM

Rockers feel pretty solid. I can't tell what they are bushed with, the material is a lot thinner than I thought it would be, and it doesn't look like bronze.


Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/28/13 08:52 PM

The Comps are nice little rockers for street duty. Make sure the clearance is right bewteen shaft and bushings. My understanding was Comp was nitriding the shafts, hence the color. I had got some of their shafts when they first started, and I wouldnt call them the beefiest shaft out there, but absolutley fine for their intended useage. That little bit of flaking is nothing to worry about. Making sure they are sized or clearance well is whats important. The Comps are nice too because of the reverse cup style adjuster, which makes pushrod selection way way easier.

As far as the roller vs solid vs bushing debate, well, it all makes great topic of conversation, but in the end, real world results trump all. I have used and repaired every brand imaginable for Mopars especially, and they have all had success when used in the right application.I will say that again, the RIGHT application. Many times rockers are chosen by price point rather than reason. That will almost always result in unsatisfactory results. If a rocker is run dry, it will fail, If a roller is run dry, it will fail. If a spring pressure is too great, it will fail. If shafts are put on wrong, it will fail. It shafts are of the wrong hardness for the corresponding rocker material, it will fail. You get the idea.

I have run Harland Sharp rockers ( same sets) for over 20 years in race cars without failure. I have ran Crane Golds for over 15 years without failures ( other than screws being soft). I have ran Comp Pro Magnums on street engines with great results. I have just started trying the Hughes rockers on Stock Eliminator cars,and I am pleased with them . I think they are a good value, and geometry was good.
My opinion is there is some mis information in this post, and in the end, you need to determine what is important in your own build, and take action accordingly. My feeling, based on almost 30 years of this, is rockers are NOT a good place to take short cuts, and offshore rockers are not a wise investment. My
Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/28/13 09:07 PM



...what is the going rate on BUSHING(and correcting the ratio) of a set of iron adjustables ? ....I have 2 sets ... just wondering ...
Posted By: Adam71Charger

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment - 06/29/13 03:01 AM

I think these will work perfectly for my application.
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