Moparts

Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body?

Posted By: Brian_wo

Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 12:38 AM

I believe thats a T56,has anybody done it here or know anybody that has?

Next weekend looks to be my back to the future moment and the wheels are turning,the way I hear it the 2010 has the best OD gearing,I may be one hunt for one soon if its not to bad of a swap.
Posted By: topside

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 04:41 AM

I think it depends on how you feel about cutting up your floor and IIRC torsion-bar crossmember.
Posted By: Brian_wo

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 01:27 PM

Ugh
Dont know if I like that but then switch to an AlterKation and the torsion bars are not needed.
Nobody has seen a car thats had this swap?
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 01:47 PM

There's a couple of threads over on Dodgecharger.com regarding the swap, you will be massaging the floor and crossmember, it depends on your skill sets, but retaining the torsion bars is doable, the "easy" way out is an Alterkation design front end...
Posted By: held1823

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 01:48 PM

i know someone who has done it. i sent him a link to this thread, so perhaps he will chime in later today.
Posted By: moparstuart

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 01:53 PM

i'm in the middle of doing it right now

lot of pictures feel free to email me for advice (stuartspeedway@hotmail.com)
i have a new crossmember from tony that should work better just not installed yet


http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95382.0.html
Posted By: moparstuart

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 01:58 PM

Mike with the 5 speed its easy , but with the six speed there is no way to keep the tunnel and torsion bar cross member complete .

I was scared at first to cut the floor but that worked out pretty easy compared to other problems i had , bottom line it would be nice if someone had a kit like the 5 speed that was proven as opposed to putting stuff together on your own from several different suppiers .
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 02:02 PM

pretty sure they all have the same gear ratios, but the later versions out of the gen 3 cars have a one piece counter shaft which is supposedly stronger than the 2 piece shaft often found in the earlier Borg/Warner build boxes (tremec makes them now)

5th and 6th gears are OD, with 6th gear being a .5:1 OD

I just did this swap in my Dakota. all I needed was a quicktime bell, 130 tooth flywheel/clutch, and shorten the driveshaft 1".

I modified the original T-56 trans mount and the original trans mount out of my Dakota so they would work together, and it drops right in to my original transmission cross member with no mods to the cross member at all, and I adapted the Viper hydraulic TO bearing to fit the Dakota master cylinder that was originally in the truck.

Overall, it was a very simple, drop in swap in my truck. However, my truck has a trans tunnel big enough to accommodate a 46RE automatic, which is a big trans. (my truck was originally an NV3500 stick shift though)

fitting the transmission to the engine is easy, but you'll have to figure out tunnel/crossmember mods as those will be specific to your car.
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 03:57 PM

Quote:

Mike with the 5 speed its easy , but with the six speed there is no way to keep the tunnel and torsion bar cross member complete .










Stuart, I know the 5 spd is easy, done plenty of those, keeping the torsion bars is doable, like I said just a matter of one's skill sets in engineering out the problem, as far as the floor, best to remove the tunnel altogether, and fabricate what's needed....



For some details, and a 3 part video install,... go to YouTube and look for "T56 install on a 68 B body Mopar" by Kens68Charger, he retains the factory T bars, most of the factory floor, factory console, etc, etc on an American Power Train (APT) T56 install on a 68 Charger

Mike
Posted By: Brian_wo

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 06:25 PM

Awsome,thanks for the links and search tips,this puts me in the right direction.

As far as them all having the same gear ratio I was talking to the main Viper guy from Baxter and told him that after our Challenger was paid off that we would be in the market for a 2008-2010 snakeskin green Viper,he suggested the 2010 because on the 08 and 09 models there was little difference between 5th and 6th gear but they changed that in 2010 and I guess they have far less complaints,he did mention that if we ended up with an 08 or 09 that we could just swap out 5th and 6th gears.

Its good to know the later ones are stronger,had no clue on that.

Thanks to all.
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 10:23 PM

pretty sure 6th gear has never changed on the Vipers, and has always been a .5:1 ratio if they DID change anything, it was the 5th gear, but I didn't think the 2 gears were "too close" in ratio, and felt they were about perfect. 4th is 1:1, 5th is .74:1 and 6th is .50:1


Just looked up online, and the new 2013 models DO have different gear ratios...5th is now .77:1 and 6th is now .63:1


This change MAY be due to the problems they were having with the super "deep" gearing of the .50:1 6th gear. the OD was so deep that the engine RPM would lug way down when shifted into 6th. This resulted in a lot of strain on the gears and would cause issues between the splines on the main shaft and the gears, which would then cause excessive noise when in the OD gears because of how the gear mesh changed.




notice the splines--one half is used by the 5th6th gear cluster, the other is used by the reverse syncro.
Posted By: moparstuart

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 10:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Mike with the 5 speed its easy , but with the six speed there is no way to keep the tunnel and torsion bar cross member complete .










Stuart, I know the 5 spd is easy, done plenty of those, keeping the torsion bars is doable, like I said just a matter of one's skill sets in engineering out the problem, as far as the floor, best to remove the tunnel altogether, and fabricate what's needed....



For some details, and a 3 part video install,... go to YouTube and look for "T56 install on a 68 B body Mopar" by Kens68Charger, he retains the factory T bars, most of the factory floor, factory console, etc, etc on an American Power Train (APT) T56 install on a 68 Charger

Mike

yes i agree you can keep the torsion bars but you can not keep the center section of the crossmemebr , you have to fabricate new ,the transmission is simply to large
Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/18/13 10:53 PM

Quote:

Ugh
Dont know if I like that but then switch to an AlterKation and the torsion bars are not needed.
Nobody has seen a car thats had this swap?



I've done it.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...ID=#Post7710511

Sorry, you'll have to trawl thru the post for pictures, but it requires a bit of work. You will need to cut the tunnel, change the rear mount, cross member etc. QuickTime bell housing is good but get the correct one and check it has been notched for the pump boss in the front of the trans (if you have one).

Put the effort into getting the crossmember right. Good luck,


Posted By: AndyF

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/19/13 01:21 AM

Quote:

I believe thats a T56,has anybody done it here or know anybody that has?

Next weekend looks to be my back to the future moment and the wheels are turning,the way I hear it the 2010 has the best OD gearing,I may be one hunt for one soon if its not to bad of a swap.



I have some pictures in the B-body book that I wrote. It takes a lot of work to swap one of those transmissions into a Mopar. There are some vendors out there who make some parts so you don't have to build it all yourself.
Posted By: Brian_wo

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/19/13 02:53 AM

Funny,i bought your book because it was you but I have yet to look at it
Guess I better open it up .
Posted By: moparstuart

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/19/13 04:25 AM

here is the u tube video mike was talking about


good info but you do need to make this loop center part of the crossmember i love his fab work on this part

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zdov8liz7A



if you look at my link and my pictures you can see we made the tunnel as small as possible and will be able to use the stock console , it will just sit further back a few inches then stock
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95382.0.html
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/19/13 02:52 PM

Good luck, I guess anything will fit with enough and Do you have the skills, tools and time? and forget about using the factory console....
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/19/13 08:17 PM

When I put the Doug Nash in my '65 Coronet I just took the car over to a guy who builds street rods for a living. Street rod guys aren't afraid of a little bit of fab work. It only took him a couple of days to fab up the cross member, redo the tunnel, build some brackets for the linkage, etc.
Posted By: finadk

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/20/13 12:46 AM

If you have not already found a T56 you should consider just buying a BRAND NEW T-56 Magnum. I looked at GM Spec T-56 from Camaros as well as Viper transmissions. The Viper trans was always expensive. I was looking at $800 to $1200 plus another $1200 or so in parts and labor to upgrade an rebuild. You can get a new T-56 Magnum with a choice of gearing for about $2900, not much more then buying and rebuilding a used one. (maybe less in some cases.)

I have a lot of info on this swap on a small block MOPAR (im putting a 408 Stroker into a 56 Dodge) but can't help much on the torsion bar/cross member issues you are facing with a B-Body. I even have an unused Quicktime LA Small Block to T56 bell-housing left over.

One more lesson learned, I was able to buy a COMPLETE kit from American Powertrain for about the same price as sourcing all the parts myself. So shop carefully, do your research and decide what is the best route for you. American Powertrain's customer support is beyond excellent and I was able to get support at odd hours.

If you go down this road consider the Ford spec T-56 instead of the GM spec. The Ford input shaft is about 1" shorter than the GM so the bell housing will be shorter and the shifter not as far back in the car when it is done.

Good Luck
Scott
Posted By: moparstuart

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/20/13 02:36 PM

Tony Edler
Mopar Sales and Support
Hurst Driveline Conversions

has made a couple different lower crossmembers for me , great customer service too



Tony Edler
Illumin8s
Phone: (573) 823-1813
See illumin8s on the web at www.globaloverdrive.com
Posted By: moparstuart

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/20/13 02:41 PM

I also got my hydrolic master set up from tony

Attached picture 7712463-vipercrossmemeberII.JPG
Posted By: moparstuart

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/20/13 02:42 PM

more

Attached picture 7712465-vipercrossmemberII2.JPG
Posted By: moparstuart

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/20/13 02:44 PM

the master set up tony got me the hurst set up

Attached picture 7712466-vipersuperbirdcrossmemberphoto(11).JPG
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/22/13 05:33 AM

You won't be "massaging" your torsion bar crossmember or your trans tunnel. You will be cutting and reshaping. If you're fine with that, then ya it can be done. Building a t56 for mine as well. Cheaper than the aftermarket 5sp kits and the .5 ratio 6th gear is very appealing.
Posted By: Brian_wo

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/26/13 05:03 AM

I dont know how the viper tranny compares to the one in my 2010 Challenger but with 3.91 gears in 6th gear we are around 1700rpm at 70mph,seems like a no brainer on a car I plan on driving all over the place.

Guess I better start printing out some of this stuff,thx guys.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/26/13 05:45 PM

Brian,

If you can get ahold of Tony Edler at Hurst you'll learn a lot. He is the guy to talk to. Hurst has a bunch of the conversion parts as well as the transmissions. Contact information is in the back of my B-body book.
Posted By: Brian_wo

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/26/13 06:32 PM

Thanks Andy(451boy)
I thought I had that book,now I do

Not sure I ever mentioned it or not 10-15 years back but you were the reason I built so many low deck strokers,after the first one I just fell in love with them,the 431 is still in a 69 RR to this day.

I might even do one more to get me by untill I get another modern hemi and 6-speed.
Posted By: moparstuart

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/31/13 02:22 PM

Quote:

Brian,

If you can get ahold of Tony Edler at Hurst you'll learn a lot. He is the guy to talk to. Hurst has a bunch of the conversion parts as well as the transmissions. Contact information is in the back of my B-body book.

i posted tony's info 5 messages up
Posted By: Brian_wo

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/31/13 03:54 PM

Thank you
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 05/31/13 07:56 PM

Anyone have a parts list of all parts needed? I realize some things will need to be fabricated... but to get an idea of costs.
Posted By: 4406bbl

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 06/01/13 06:03 AM

Quote:

Thanks Andy(451boy)
I thought I had that book,now I do

Not sure I ever mentioned it or not 10-15 years back but you were the reason I built so many low deck strokers,after the first one I just fell in love with them,the 431 is still in a 69 RR to this day.

I might even do one more to get me by untill I get another modern hemi and 6-speed.



If you are looking for a modern hemi I have a brand new 5.7 complete from pan to airbox, also has stick bellhousing and flywheel and the front belt drive, cheaper than building a motor, and I live in your town. Pm if interested.
Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 06/01/13 11:08 PM

Quote:

If you have not already found a T56 you should consider just buying a BRAND NEW T-56 Magnum.




Agreed. That's what I did.
Posted By: Brian_wo

Re: Viper 6-speed in a 68-70 B-body? - 06/02/13 06:05 AM

What in the world is a T-56 Magnum?

Weird how things can change in an instant,I ended up with a 426 Hemi crate motor today and front to back TTI exhaust for it along with a Dana 60,this was not the plan but I was not able to pass it up.

That being said I may have to do this modern hemi 6-speed car but with the 67 Plymouth vert I found for $1800.
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