440 too rich and pinging. why.

what is your fuel pressure? too much and it will push gas resulting in your smelly problem. As mentioned 10* initial isn't enough and 30* total isn't enough. It could be pining if you are sucking oil from the intake and it doesn't take much and you might not see any eveidence of it. How do you have the carbs set up? Is it rich at idle or in the cruise circut? I'd try initial at 15* total at 34* in full early...like 2200rpm. Then I'd adjust the carbs for best vacuum. Are you sure it's not going above 30*?

On the carbs, loosen the little doors above the primary metering rods and slide them over enough so you can see the metering rod piston top and tighten the door down to hold them in place(they will come out of the primary jets and may not be suck back into the jets when you start the motor if you don't do this) start the motor up and watch all four pistons, metering rods, if they stay down in nuetral idling then have someone put the trans. in gear, if they stay down idling in gear your good. If they DON"T stay down idling in gear you need to trim the springs under the pistons a little at a time until they do stay down idling in gear Please let us know what you find out I don't think that cam is big enough to cause this type of problem, but it may, depending on what lobe seperation angle the cam is installed at If the pistosn and springs are okay the next thing to do after changing the timing is to try the next size leaner rod on the economy step

I was writing on behalf of my friend. I'll forward him your advice and we'll see. He says anything more than 30* total and it pings badly from the beginning, not only at higher rpms.

I recommended him more initial (I run 22-24* in my 383) as this clears idle very well but it doesn't work with his 440 - I guess he must play more with springs'n'slots to get shorter but gentle curve.

As a last ressort he can play with gasket thickness and lowering CR but I read it may aggreviate pinging (less quench). BTW dont know how far in the hole the pistons are but he bought some forged with 4cc valve pockets.

I'd set the initial with the "vacuum gauge method" & yes you need more than 10 then shorten the slots to get 36 total then play with spring/combo staying just under the pinging point at WOT up thru the gears & you may need heavier springs. I'm thinking that ain't too wild of a cam & if not I'd solder the butterflies closed & concentrate my efforts on the dual carb system (not sure if you're on both idle circuits or not) & I'm not knowledgeable on dual carb setups. You would want the butterflies closed their normal amount or close to it I'd think. Make sure the floats ain't waterlogged & their level is correct & check fuel psi. Holler how it goes

IMO the dual quad setup is biasing here. It would be easier to tune the engine with a single holley than 2 edelbrocks. But he has the engine assembled and detailed and is reluctant to swap the manifold and carbs.

The engine definitely likes more advance at idle - but 30* total is a little conservative... how much HP could he gain having 34* without pinging? Car has iron manifolds but 3" exhaust.

I have a dual quad '58 era iron single plane intake with a pair of 4131 OE 3 step AFB's converted to eddy 2 step rods/jets going onto a 451 so I will be learning how to tune them also (the idle circuits are my concern). I'd set the initial with the vacuum gauge method then shorten the slots to get 36 total then check/correct a few things on the carb setup: floats not waterlogged/correct float level settings/fuel psi within limits. Then concentrate on the idle mixture screws/throttle position to get it to idle acceptably (which I think'll be the hard part) then play with the springs staying just under the pinging point at WOT up thru the gears. then hookup/tune the vacuum advance if you want to use it (& I would). EDIT Not sure if you need to change anything with the holes in the throttle blades or not

We tested the car yesterday and when really hot it started slightly ping even with 8/28* setting. Pinging occured at every rpm/load. We wait for the package with different distributor springs.
One more fact - the engine diesels for 1-2s after shut off. We tried 3 different plug heat ranges and no difference. Also minimizing advance even to 0/20* does not eliminate it. Idle is 900 rpm.

Does all your pump gas have Ethanol in it now? It sounds like you guys have some really bad pump gas over there What color are the spark plugs, can you post a picture of one or two of them as removed from the motor with no idling time and after a normal drive for you guys I hope so

very good post.i noticed that it was mentioned to check the slots in the dist to limit how much mech/ total advance. can this be done with a timing light hooked up and watching the timing marks as you rev up the motor? thanks

What size Edelbrocks? (post the number(s) if possible)
My gut impression is it's lean, not rich. Both will cause a fuel smell, and both will cause pinging that won't go away once it starts.
Other things to check: what radiator is in it? What's the operating temp? Does it ahve an overflow? What pressure is the cap?

all the advise has been good so far. how hot is that engine running? and are you sure of the comp ratio?

If it has not been said, check fuel pressure while driving and under acceleration. You'll want 4.5 to 5 psi min. under full load.

News:
Marcin tried shortenning the slots and eliminated the play on the thick spring in the distributor. He got 15*/28* then and the idle rpm rose so he could close the throttles a little bit. The idle got better, the throttle response is much better now and... no pinging during 4 miles of ride.

Also the dieseling is gone!

The induction is 2x600 cfm edelbrocks and idle vacuum 16", the metering rods are suck down at both N and D.

Edit:
whether it is lean on the main circuit - plugs look great (Marcin is a long time moto mechanic) but idle burns eyes. When I follow him in my challenger every time he nails it I see a puff of black smoke and I can even smell the gas! So I doubt the secondaries are lean.

The CR is high as he used special order forged pistons with 4cc pockets, flush with the deck and stealths are milled over 0.040". Cranking Cr is 170-180psi with XE274H cam.

Asked marcin to clarify some questions (engine running temp, plugs pictures). Will post info upon receipt.
So far we have progress!

SP
Our cars photo attached.

If it puffs black smoke, two accelerator pumps try moving the accelerator pump arms to the lowest hole on the arm, shortest stroke As far as burning and stinking at idle try leaning,with the motor running, screwing them in,the ile mixure screws very slowly, 1/4 turn each on all four and wait for a while for the unburnt fuel in the intake manifold and exhaust system to clear out and then try again until it is lean enough to not stink at idle BTW, make sure first that the motor is running on the idle circuit only, check the primary throttle blades to see if they are opened enough to be in the transition slots instead of below them If they are, close them down so they aren't running on the transition circuit and adjust again, look at the metering rod pistons again also

It may want even more initial! Wouldn't be surprised if it wanted 20* which would clean up the idle characteristics even more. Don't settle just because ti runs better now. Get it right!

Getting the initial done, and you know what you need for total, getting the slots length correct is easy. If an MP, there's a table with slot lengths if you haven't seen it. Mallory, use drill bits to set slot length.

Another thought of carb issue that isn't really rooted in the induction system... shocking...

We'll keep trying. So far it was not running that bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtEj-jYwIHo

You guys are crazy, I'd never attemp that in such a tight area...lol sounds ok, would like to hear a full wide open pass. It appears his lights are on behind the grill????

Well i wouldnt daredriving my challenger that way! The auxiliary lights are behind the grill due to day lights requirement. all year we have to drive with front lights on. Yeah even when stuck in traffic. Dumb.

I'll jump in on this thread being that I have Dual Quads, have a close RB setup, and I live in the EU..

Are your carb's dialed in exactly the same? Do you have both 600s (Which I think is over carb'd) with the same metering rods/jets? Did you follow the graph in the Edelbrock manual with the steps left and right / up and down to get exactly where you need to be? Before I installed my Dual Quad I knew I was going to need an Air/Fuel Meter. Wideband. If you can integrate that on to your exhaust you will be able to see exactly where you need to go with those numbers. I run an Isky 280MegaCam, Dual 500s in a Progressive setup. 440 has a mechanical advance Distributor, Initial is set to 16º, the bushing on my distributor is 18º so I get the full 34º by about 2600rpm (I don't remember the springs in the distributor to be honest...I have set it once...and I don't open it anymore). I do have the benefit of the Timing Advance dial so I can start my engine cold with about 48º....and then zero her back down when she warms up to the 34º so everything is at the distributor.

As for the fuel concerns, I dunno how Poland is. Greece is crap with fuel...I run the standard 95 Octane even though I built the engine to run on California's 89 Octane. Still, the 95 they sell here is more than likely crap no matter where you go but I will never fill up at Avin, BP, Or Shell. If you have it, I use EKO or RevOil.

Your best friend for that setup is going to be an air/fuel meter though. You can run a data logger if you want but I was dialing my engine 3 years back when I slipped the CH-28 on along with the aluminum cylinder heads. Took me about 2 weeks to do ($10/gallon) but I finally got her where I wanted her.

P.S. Sucks about the daytime lights requirement...Luckily we don't have that issue here, but then again, I am on Classic car plates and I would be exempt from such laws

OK, here are the plugs - #1 and #7. What ya think?

eddies are 500cfm each.

we have just a little ethanol in fuels here, generally we do not buy cheapest gas at supermarkets, we use brand fuel: BP, shell.

Those plugs look good to me, the one that is the darker color looks like it may have oil on it, is it shiny when you guys look at it or is it the picture? If it is shiny fix that, there shuld not be any oil on the plugs, they should be dull looking, not shiny It is not uncommon for both B and RB motors, especially after machining them, to have oil suck up into the intake manifold from the lifter galley due to the intake valley pan leaking or letting oil be sucked into the intake manifold One easy thing to try is the next step colder plug to help cool the combustion chambers down to help eliminate pinging What brand and heat range are those plugs? Good luck, keep the shiny side up and the greasy side down

Looks like oil. Check the intake for a good seal.

Indeed # 1 is a bit glossy so that might be oil. # 7 is flat black.
Plugs are NGK BCPR6E and this is 3 step colder than the first set we used at the beginning. There was no change in engine behavior (pinging, dieseling) after jumping to colder plugs.

IMO the mixture at cruising rpm is right, it's the idle that is overrich.

Can't you just get 98 octane anymore in Poland? Especially with 11:1, I wouldn't even consider 95.
Here in the Netherlands 98Fuel is still readily available.
95Fuel is considered partswasher here, albeit an expensive one

I have similar problems with my 496" stroker, 84cc Eddy heads and dual longram-intakes. 10.5cr.
Engine pings vigorously the moment you put some throttle in it and the rpm get up to 2300-2500rpm.

In my case both carbs are placed in pretty much the hottest corners of the enginebay, right above the exhaustheaders left and right. Once the underhood temps get hot enough one has to feather the throttle to prevent pinging.

Maybe your friends car could use some cold-air intake system, just like mine needs badly.

As Cab mentioned, that one plug looks oily, that can cause your "pinging" I'd check under that intake. I had a 440 that leaked, I didn't even know it until I swaped out intake manifolds.

TOO RICH: check fuel psi/float levels/float saturation/float mechanically hanging up/bad needle seat. Get the throttles closed & initial bumped up if needed & if so shorten the slots to 36 total. PINGING: retarding the cam/slowing the adv "springs" (too much) are bandaids. colder plugs help a little/cold air induction helps some. You need to bite the bullet & proportion in some race gas OCTANE. If you build a monster you gotta feed it properly

Fuel is $7-8 a gallon... and you want him to go and buy race-gas at double/triple that price?

here this will fix your det problem... and you can eevn use 89.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sno-20001/overview/

I use one and it works